[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Early voting begins this Saturday in the New York primary for governor and State Assembly last night on Channel 2 and WCBS Radio before Republicans running for the nomination for governor held their only televised debate. We'll play some excerpts now and invite registered Republicans in New York to call in and say who you're leaning toward or ask any questions about these four candidates.

They are Long Island Congressman Lee Zeldin, who has the endorsement of the state Republican Party and the NRA among others; Rob Astorino, the former Westchester county executive who was the Republican nominee for governor in 2014, but lost to Andrew Cuomo; Andrew Giuliani, son of former Mayor Rudy Giuliani and former Special Assistant to the President in the Trump administration; and Harry Wilson, a businessman who was the Republican nominee for New York State Comptroller in 2010, but lost to Democrat Tom DiNapoli.

Demographically, they're all white men, a contrast to the Democratic primary field, which has one white man, one white woman, and one Black man. As you'll hear, they staked out positions on how much they would roll back abortion rights in New York State, how they would fight crime and inflation, whether they would support Trump for president in 2024, and knowing everything they know now, and more. They sparred with each other over who might have been too soft on Democrats in the past. Joining us as our guide for these excerpts is none other than our state politics reporter, Jon Campbell, a proud son of Buffalo who we're glad joined our team this year. Hi, Jon. Welcome back to the show.

Jon Campbell: Hi, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, if you are a registered Republican in New York State, which would mean you're eligible to vote in this primary, you'll get first dibs on the phones at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Who you're for, who you're deciding between, or what questions do you have about candidates, Zeldin, Giuliani, Astorino, and Wilson. 212-433-WNYC or tweet @BrianLehrer.

Jon, my thesis here after watching this debate is that compared to the Democrats, Hochul, Swasey, and Williams, who have some meaningful policy differences, these four Republican nominees seem to agree with each other on just about every major policy area that they were asked about last night, and only tried to distinguish themselves from each other on who's the most Republican Republican of them all.

Let me play a few examples, then I'll ask for your take. The first question after the January 6th, Capitol Right Hearing Revelations, was whether these candidates could support Donald Trump for president again if he's a nominee in 2024. They all said, drumroll, "Yes." For example, here's a little bit of Andrew Giuliani.

Andrew Giuliani: I would certainly support him if he decided to run for president. The media has been fixated on January 6th for the better part of a year and a half now. I would like to see a congressional hearing on the 274 riots that happened between May of 2020 and January 5th of 2021.

Brian Lehrer: That's a little bit of Andrew Giuliani trying to change the subject to other riots. Here's a little bit of Lee Zeldin.

Lee Zeldin: President Trump told his supporters to go peacefully and patriotically to the Capitol.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a little bit of Harry Wilson.

Harry Wilson: Mr. Trump did not invade the Capitol. The people who broke the law by invading the Capitol should be prosecuted and that's where the responsibility lies. The people actually broke the law.

Brian Lehrer: Not with Trump. There was basic agreement on that. Trump is not disqualified in their view by anything big lie or January 6 related. Let's go next to guns. All the candidates wanted to move the focus away from guns themselves to the people who use them in crimes or to what they consider soft on crime DAs and other elected officials. Little bit of Harry Wilson here.

Harry Wilson: Well, I'm a gun owner today. I have never had a problem and normally, I never have a problem. The problem is with people that work with law-abiding citizens, but with criminals, the mentally ill, and the purveyors of hate. Those are the people we should be cracking down and focusing on--

Brian Lehrer: A little bit of Rob Astorino.

Rob Astorino: I'm a concealed carry permit holder. If I walked in to the Bronx from Yonkers, let's say, I could be a felon overnight. Where I would need it the most because of this defund and defame the police movement, I would become a felon--

Brian Lehrer: A little bit of Andrew Giuliani, who was interesting on this to my ear when he was asked if he would support the stop-and-frisk policy from when his father was mayor. He distinguished between how his father and Michael Bloomberg ran stop-and-frisk.

Andrew Giuliani: Stop-question-and-frisk in the late '90s, when we were between 70 and 100,000 stops a year, every single year, the Justice Department ruled it constitutional. You know who did that as Deputy Attorney General? Eric Holder, believe it or not. It's when the quota system came in in the 2010s when we're stopping 700,000 people a year-

Moderator: Your time is up, Mr. Giuliani.

Andrew Giuliani: -it might have gotten out of control.

Brian Lehrer: That's when it got out of control in the 2010s, meeting under Bloomberg. We have many more excerpts to play. Jon Campbell, were there any disagreements on whether they would support Trump if he's the nominee in '24, or on gun policy that maybe didn't come out in those clips or in the debate?

Jon Campbell: Certainly on Trump, they were very careful with their words. I don't think it's quite fair to say they all backed Trump for re-election in 2024. Andrew Giuliani certainly did. He said, "I hope he runs and I'd love to work with him as governor or in any other role." Lee Zeldin said that if President Trump wants to run, he should run and I believe that he would be the Republican nominee and he'd win. He quickly pivoted to branding Harry Wilson as a Never Trumper because Harry Wilson said he didn't vote for Trump in 2020, he wrote in Nikki Haley. That is where you start to get into the difference here.

Brian Lehrer: Zeldin didn't quite say that if Trump-- There are few layers here. One is if Trump is in a primary, would Trump be their choice? Not all of them said that, Giuliani did. The next layer is if Trump is the nominee, did he disqualify himself considering all the January 6th stuff that's coming out? Zeldin didn't quite say yes or no, is what you're saying?

Jon Campbell: Well, Zeldin said Trump told his supporters to go peacefully and patriotically to the Capitol, which is what Trump brings up a lot and in fact, came up in your previous segment there, too. He repeatedly knocked Harry Wilson as, "Never Trumper Harry Wilson". He very clearly is trying to play to the Trump [inaudible 00:07:12] and brand--

Brian Lehrer: [inaudible 00:07:11]

Jon Campbell: Yes, exactly.

Brian Lehrer: What about on guns? Go ahead. Do you want to finish your thought there? Go ahead, sure.

Jon Campbell: Yes. On Rob Astorino, he actually stopped short of saying that he wanted Donald Trump to run for election in 2024. He basically said, "Well, the Republican Party, they'll figure that out. We also have Ron DeSantis, he could run too, that'd be cool." There was some differentiation there too.

Brian Lehrer: Okay, fair enough. And on guns?

Jon Campbell: On guns, the question was in regards to this pending Supreme Court decision that could end New York's restrictions on concealed carry permits, could make it essentially easier to get a concealed carry permit so you can legally carry a firearm in public. The question was on whether or not you would support banning guns from sensitive areas, something like the subways or churches or schools, and where would you do that?

Basically, they all came down pretty similarly there. Rob Astorino said, "Gun-free zones don't work." Lee Zeldin said, "Gun-free zones don't work." Harry Wilson said, "Well, I want to focus more on illegal guns." He never really took a position on that. Andrew Giuliani said, "New York is encroaching on the Second Amendment." That's when he got into the broken windows stop-and-frisk, which also Rob Astorino backed as well.

Brian Lehrer: Now, here's where the Republican candidates for governor last night apparently thought their most fertile ground wise, and you touched on it, not in highlighting policy differences with each other, but on accusing each other of being too soft on Democrats in the past or too liberal in some way. For example, here's Lee Zeldin attacking Harry Wilson.

Lee Zeldin: They figured you out that you work twice for as Obama advisor.

Harry Wilson: I can see you right now that you're a child. You're seen as that.

Lee Zeldin: They figured you out that you fired your unvaccinated employees.

Brian Lehrer: Zeldin attacking Wilson for being too liberal. Now here's Rob Astorino attacking Zeldin. This is after Astorino was attacked as a failed county executive in Westchester. He defends himself and pivots to Zeldin.

Rob Astorino: As Westchester County Executive, I had to work every day to help to create jobs and 44,000 were created in Westchester when I was there. I went right to work on the budget. We had a big deficit, we cleaned that up. $1.8 billion was the budget when I walked in the door, and it was 1.8 when I left. That is fiscal conservatism. That allowed us to actually cut property taxes and never raised them. Imagine if they had done that in New York State, we'd be much better. But no, they, the Republicans in the Senate Majority of the time under Dean Skelos and Lee Zeldin just went with the Cuomo budgets, so the train kept going on the track. Today, the budget went from 178 billion to 220 billion, and everyone is leaving New York because nobody can afford it.

Brian Lehrer: Jon Campbell, our Albany reporter, by the way, has a really good article on Gothamist today about this debate last night between the Republican gubernatorial hopefuls. Can you fact-check the claims in those clips a little bit? Did Zeldin as a state senator vote for a lot of Cuomo budgets that the Republicans considered too bloated with big government spending? What was Harry Wilson's relationship with Obama, and did he fire workers in his business for not getting a COVID vaccine, which, of course, would be against Republican orthodoxy?

Jon Campbell: I'll start with Harry Wilson. Harry Wilson was an advisor in the Obama administration, in the Treasury Department, and also for the auto industry task force when they were trying to rescue the US auto industry. I mean, as far as that goes, that's accurate. The idea that he fired people from his businesses because of a COVID vaccine mandate, he's this business turnaround expert, he addressed that later in the debate and he said, "Listen, I work with nursing homes and there was a federal mandate for nursing homes-- I'm sorry, a state mandate for nursing homes. What am I supposed to do? We have to implement that and we work to implement that." That was his response on that.

Brian Lehrer: It was a government-mandated policy that he was firing not his choice as a business executive?

Jon Campbell: That is his claim. I mean, he works as a business turnaround expert. His whole thing is, he goes and takes struggling businesses and comes up with a plan as a consultant to turn them around and get them profitable and in the right direction. He works with a lot of different businesses. That was his response on that. In terms of Rob Astorino's criticism of Lee Zeldin voting for "Cuomo budgets", it was a different time, you have to remember this. Lee Zeldin was in the State Senate at a time when Republicans controlled the State Senate.

They negotiated with Andrew Cuomo, who was the Democratic governor at the time in the Democratic Assembly. They had to come together on different budgets and pass those to the extent that he voted for "Cuomo budgets", they were negotiated with the Senate Republicans as a whole. I mean, when you get into Albany budgeting, there's like 10 different budget bills every year, and you can vote for some, you can vote for against others. That is an attack that his opponents have latched on to and saying that these were Cuomo budgets. Really, they were negotiated with Cuomo, but Senate Republicans got their say too.

Brian Lehrer: Two more minutes with our Albany reporter Jon Campbell, on last night, only televised Republican primary debate between those who would be the next Governor of New York, Selden, Astorino, Giuliani, and Wilson. Let's go to the issue of inflation. It was interesting to me when they were asked, "How would you fight inflation in New York? It's a national trend. What, if anything, could you do as governor?" They all went to energy and to opposition to the ban on fracking in New York State for natural gas that Andrew Cuomo has imposed as governor. Here's Andrew Giuliani as representing the group.

Andrew Giuliani: We can tap into the Marcellus Shale and specifically the energy and make New York truly the best fracking state in the country. We have that ability to do that here in the state of New York. We need to make sure that we're doing everything, not just to say that we're going to reignite New York but really do it. That starts with energy here. It also starts with maybe competing more with the likes of Florida, of Texas, and Tennessee, from a regulatory standpoint, as well as from a tax standpoint. When I think about New York, we're competing with California to be the highest tax state in the country.

Brian Lehrer: They didn't say and they weren't ask the follow-up, "Do you think climate change is real? Is fracking a risk to the climate if you would go back to fracking?" How much were they exactly on the same page on that one?

Jon Campbell: It was a rare moment of unanimity, I'd say that. Every single one of them went to the issue of fracking in the Marcellus Shale. [chuckles] In a past life, I was a reporter at the newspaper in Binghamton, which is right in the middle of all this. I really, really covered this in 2010, 2011. It felt like I was right back there because this has been an issue for 12 years now, more than that, 13 years.

Every single one of them on the issue of inflation went immediately to fracking and really didn't say much other than that, quite frankly. It was a little weird because there's gas prices, there's food prices, et cetera, et cetera, but they all latched on energy prices, and specifically, opening up the Marcellus Shale, which has been off-limits to gas-- [inaudible 00:15:19] [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Do you think from your reporting experience, if they held a referendum on fracking in those counties that it would pass and people would want it restored?

Jon Campbell: In those counties, it would be close, I would say, but certainly closer than the rest of the state, let's put it that way, because statewide, it would almost certainly be against fracking. In those counties, it would certainly be close. You have areas like Ithaca, which are very environmental focus, but you also have more rural areas that really wanted to see it too.

Brian Lehrer: Of course, with fracking, the issue isn't only climate, the issue is what fracking can do to water and some things in the immediate area in some cases, but there's that. Let's go to the issue of abortion rights. They all characterize themselves as pro-life as they put it. I'm just going to play Zeldin here because he laid out the most succinctly the kind of restrictions that I think they all said they would support on abortions in New York state if they become governor.

Lee Zeldin: We shouldn't allow late-term, partial-birth abortion in the state. I don't believe that should be legalized, it is right now. I don't believe that non-doctors should be performing abortion in the state. I believe it should be legal for there to be parental consent, that there should be informed consent. I believe that we should be doing more to promote adoption. What I found, even though I'm pro-life, is that a lot of people who consider themselves to be pro-choice agree with me.

Brian Lehrer: Jon, the only difference between the candidates that I heard on this issue is that Harry Wilson said he's mostly running for an economic turnaround for New York and he wouldn't fight for those abortion restrictions, though he supports them. Other than that, are they basically of one mind there?

Jon Campbell: Yes, essentially, I mean, Harry Wilson is the more moderate candidate of these four, and that is one area where that comes out. He said he would not fight to change New York's abortion law, which allows abortion at any point if the health of the mother is in danger, or if there's no viability in the fetus. That has been a controversial law which was passed in 2019 among Republicans. It's been controversial, and they like to say that it allows abortion to the minute of birth, which is, again, only true if the health of the mother is in danger. Three of the four candidates said that they would try to add restrictions on New York's abortion law. Harry Wilson said, "No, I don't intend to fight to change the law."

Brian Lehrer: On congestion pricing, the fee if it's ever implemented to drive a car into the Manhattan business district, here's a little bit of Rob Astorino.

Rob Astorino: This year is going to be the revenge of the normal people. I'll tell you why: because congestion pricing is another backbreaker on the average New Yorker. It sounds so great, but you're going to charge $30 to go south of 60 Street when New York City is trying to get back on its feet. All this does is it crushes the outer boroughs, it crushes the middle class, and the elites, they won't care at all, but more and more people will leave New York.

We got to get rid of like red light cameras and speed cameras. All these are nickel and diming people and it's another reason to leave New York. When I say it's going to be the revenge of the normal people, we are fed up with what the hell is going on in New York right now. The only way to change it is to change course. Look, I did this in Westchester, I fixed our problems in Westchester County, we created jobs, we got back to normalcy, but nobody feels like they're being heard right now.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a little bit of Andrew Giuliani.

Andrew Giuliani: Congestion pricing is a tax on hardworking New Yorkers, that's what it is. The same thing with speed and red light cameras. Look, if speed cameras existed exclusively in school zones during school hours, then that's something that I'd be willing to talk about. You see in more and more conservative areas, like Staten Island, like Southern queens, more speed cameras that pop up then honestly, in some of those blue areas right there.

I think this is a tax not just on hard-working New Yorkers but I think it's a tax on conservatives here in the five boroughs and in other counties around New York City and around the state, frankly, as well. I would look at it this way, though, we continue to look at New York's rising budget, going from $135 billion back in 2010, now $220 billion. Let's take a look at a state that's thriving. Let's take a look at Florida at $98 billion with a million more people than we do. I think it's pretty obvious that the same old same old in Albany will not work.

Brian Lehrer: A lot of interesting stuff in those couple of clips, Jon.  One, from the end of that Giuliani clip right there and others alluded to how big New York state's budget is compared to Florida as well if they would really cut more than 50% out of New York state's government spending. There wasn't time in the format they had last night for the moderators to ask what would you cut out? What 50% of services? I'm sure they would say they would do it with efficiencies but you can't do half of a $200 billion-plus budget with efficiencies.

What services would you eliminate or reduce from New York state? Is it education? Is it Medicaid services for the elderly? That came up as New York spends too much nobody asked what would you spend less on? Also, the idea of congestion pricing, not even mentioning climate, and tying it as both of them did to red light cameras and speeding cameras. With the pedestrian deaths that we've been having on the rise in New York City during the pandemic, they see that as somehow picking on drivers.

Jon Campbell: They honed in on the pocketbook issue of these topics rather than the ancillary benefits, or not even ancillary benefits, the benefits of these programs. Congestion pricing the whole idea is to cut down on traffic, cut down on climate emissions, and also raise money for the MTA. This was also a question in the democratic debate where they asked if it should be delayed and there were some mixed answers on that. In reality, the feds are asking a lot of questions before they give approval, so it's going to be a while until it's approved anyway. The Republicans all four of them said they are opposed to congestion pricing and they really honed in on it as a pocketbook issue rather than a climate and public transit issue.

Brian Lehrer: Jon, let's end on this. There was something that I thought was missing from last night's debate. I didn't hear an electability question, that is, whoever gets the nomination would be running in a very blue state that hasn't elected a statewide Republican since I think governor George Pataki in 2002. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Jon Campbell: You got it.

Brian Lehrer: Nobody was asked how they would appeal across the aisle to swing voters or is that not anybody's game plan for the fall if they're the nominee?

Jon Campbell: Well, they were certainly playing to a Republican electorate here. You're right. They have to appeal to a broader electorate after one of them wins this primary. How do you do that? I think what they would have said is everybody is worried about crime, everybody is worried about increasing costs, inflation, and those appeal across party lines.

When you talk about, say, restricting New York's abortion law, that's something that does not play well to a broader blue audience, blue electorate in New York, more than twice as many Democrats as Republicans. There are more independents than there are Republicans in New York at this point, so you have to appeal to that broader base. I think you will see some "pivoting" after the June 28th primary.

Brian Lehrer: There it is. Excerption analysis from the Republican debate on Channel 2 in WCBS radio last night. I'm right, Jon, aren't I, that that's the only scheduled televised debate among the Republicans for governor?

Jon Campbell: There is a Newsmax debate on June 21st that at least three of the candidates are confirmed for. I'm trying to work on that. I believe Zeldin's going to be part of that too. It's looking like the conservative news network Newsmax may also have a debate coming up too.

Brian Lehrer: All right, so that's the only one that had been confirmed as of yesterday but there may be another one on Newsmax. Again, folks, early voting starts in both the Democratic and Republican primaries for governor and for state assembly this Saturday. Jon Campbell, our Albany reporter who has reported on this debate on the radio of course, and also has a great and long take on it on Gothamist. Jon, thanks a lot for coming on.

Jon Campbell: Thanks so much for having me.

Copyright © 2022 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.