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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Did you see or hear the Hochul-Zeldin debate last night? It was on NY1 and other Spectrum News stations around the state on TV. We had the radio rights and we carried it live here on WNYC. We suspended our fall membership drive announcements for that hour after we secured those rights because you got to have some priorities in life, right? We'll start to show this morning with a few highlights in case you missed it, or just want to hear them again, that I think captured the essence of what happened in the debate. Here to help us understand it in context is WNYC state politics reporter Jon Campbell. Hi, Jon. Welcome back to the show.

Jon Campbell: Hi, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Well, the main topics I'd say were crime, abortion rights, democracy in peril, and the economy. I'm going to start with an exchange they had on crime. Zeldin has been running on the idea that he will declare a crime state of emergency in New York State on day one, we'll try to explain what that means, if he's elected. He would fire the Manhattan District Attorney, Alvin Bragg, on day one. Bragg, who Zeldin argues, has been soft on crime. Here's a minute and a half of their exchange.

Lee Zeldin: Absolutely. The first thing I'll do right after I'm sworn into office is turning the Manhattan District Attorney, Alvin Bragg, to let him know that he's being removed. It's from day one that he was a district attorney. He said that he was not going to enforce all different kinds of laws across the board. Others he treat as lesser offenses. Look what happened to Jose Alba. He gets attacked. He's defending himself. Alvin Bragg sends him to Rikers Island, slaps him with a murder charge. He had an open stab wound.

Alvin Bragg asked for hundreds of thousands of dollars in bail in this case but doesn't go after the person who stabbed Jose Alba. We reached the point where Jose Alba said that he needed to go back to the Dominican Republic because he didn't feel safe here. Alvin Bragg is not doing his job. The message will absolutely be sent that if you're the DA, it stands for district attorney, not defense attorney. Alvin Bragg can go be a defense attorney. If he's not going to do his job, I'm going to do my job and I'm going to remove him as soon as I can.

Susan Arbetter: Did you want to respond?

Governor Kathy Hochul: I'd be happy to. I'm not surprised because in Lee Zeldin's world, you overturn elections you don't agree with. You can't throw out someone who is duly elected. Yes, I've worked with all of our district attorneys and given them more power to do their jobs, but for someone who voted to overturn a presidential election, I'm not surprised. He just thinks whatever he wants to do something, he can just undo the will of the people. That's not the democracy we live in, but it's the world that Lee Zeldin does.

Brian Lehrer: Hochul, preceded by Zeldin, from last night's debate. Jon, did that in a way capture the essence of how they were both debating and what they came with that they wanted to communicate last night?

Jon Campbell: Yes, it sure did. Really, this was about trying to keep the message on the particular candidates wanting to stay on message here. Lee Zeldin's message has been crime, crime, crime. "Kathy Hochul is not keeping you safe. I will." Kathy Hochul's message has been, "Lee Zeldin is dangerous," that he's an extremist, that he doesn't support abortion rights, that he supports Donald Trump. When you saw all these different questions about all these different topics, a lot of times, you saw the two candidates trying to come back to those themes as we see this race tightening up.

Brian Lehrer: Your article on Gothamist this morning about the debate is a fact-checking article, so fact-check this for me. Can a governor declare a state of emergency on crime and can a governor just decide to fire an elected DA?

Jon Campbell: Well, step one, yes, a governor can declare a state of emergency on all sorts of things, and then that allows the governor to suspend laws related to that emergency. Lee Zeldin is making the case that he could declare a crime or emergency and then, 30 days at a time, suspend the state's bail reform laws, which made it so more defendants were let free in the sense that they didn't have to put up cash bail so you avoid criminalizing poverty. Two people charged with the same crime. One person has money. They get let out. The other one has to sit in Rikers Island.

He says he would suspend those laws. Now, that would almost certainly draw legal challenges. It would ultimately be up to the court to decide whether the emergency is legitimate, but that's the plan he's laid out there. The other piece, can he fire Alvin Bragg? There is a process in place where a governor can remove a district attorney. Now, that can't happen on day one. He could start the process on day one, but there's a process in place where the district attorney would have to be heard before a final decision is made. There is a process in place for that as well.

Brian Lehrer: One fact-check on part of Zeldin's answer there. He said Alvin Bragg went after Jose Alba in that case in a bodega, but he didn't go after the guy who stabbed Jose Alba. Well, the guy who stabbed Jose Alba was dead. He was killed by Alba. That may be an act of self-defense as the consensus definitely has it, but he obviously was not going to prosecute the man who stabbed him because that man was dead. One other thing on crime. Did Hochul explicitly defend not having a dangerous standard for judges to decide on bail with-- Zeldin pointed out that Mayor Adams is among those who wants that.

Jon Campbell: She pointed out the changes that she's made to the bail laws earlier this year as part of the state budget. They made some tweaks to the bail laws, made it easier to impose bail on somebody who is a repeat offender or somebody who has been charged with multiple crimes in a short period of time, I should say. She did talk about the reasons why bail reform was needed in the first place, that idea that somebody shouldn't be in prison just because of their means. Yes and no. It's a tough issue for the governor because it has been so weaponized in the political realm right now. People know the term "bail reform," but few of them can really tell you what it's about. People are really dug-in on that issue as well.

Brian Lehrer: Before we go on to our second clip from the debate, an exchange on abortion rights, one more on what we just heard in this exchange. Hochul referred to January 6th there in saying Zeldin believes in overturning the elections he doesn't like the outcomes of, so she tied his plan for Alvin Bragg to his support of Trump on January 6th. Your fact-check article includes that claim about Zeldin. What role, if any, did Zeldin play on January 6th or earlier in the "Big Lie" stolen election campaign?

Jon Campbell: Well, for one, he voted to deny the certification of the election in Arizona and Pennsylvania. Actually, last night, he was asked about that vote and essentially said he would do it again. He said he had concerns about people in those states, whether it's the Secretary of State, unilaterally making changes to the voting rules during the COVID emergency that, in his opinion, went beyond the Constitution and he said he still has those concerns.

In that sense, he doubled down on it last night. The other thing that Governor Hochul mentioned is this text message that went from Lee Zeldin to Mark Meadows, who was then the White House chief of staff. Lee Zeldin says this came in the days after the election before it was actually declared for Joe Biden, but it had a lot of advice about what the White House should be doing.

They should be creating a website where they have information videos on irregularities about votes. They should have a spokesperson out there having daily press conferences, going over any irregularities they found. He says that was well before the conspiracy theories. Lee Zeldin says that he just wanted confirmed information out there, but Kathy Hochul used that to really press Lee Zeldin on the issue.

Brian Lehrer: That may have been in early November that he sent that text message on strategy for overturning the election results, but he did carry it all the way through to January 6th when he refused to certify the election. Here's another clip on the issue of abortion rights. This begins with debate moderator Susan Arbetter of Spectrum News, asking Zeldin about his positions on abortion rights. Zeldin has co-sponsored a Life Begins at Conception bill as a member of Congress and said he would appoint what he calls a pro-life health commissioner if he's elected governor. The question, as you'll hear, is about Zeldin's stand on funding Planned Parenthood.

Susan Arbetter: Mr. Zeldin, you have not committed to maintaining state funding for Planned Parenthood. Why not, when for many women in our state, Planned Parenthood is a trusted service for health care?

Lee Zeldin: Well, what I said was that I'd be working with the legislature. I'm sure Carl Heastie will come to the table wanting a funding level for whatever his priorities might be across the board on all sorts of different issues. I've heard from New Yorkers who say that they don't want their tax dollars, for example, funding abortions for people who live 1,500 miles away from here.

What's important is the will of the people and we have to listen to what New Yorkers want. I've actually heard from a number of people who consider themselves to be pro-choice, who are not happy hearing that their tax dollars are being used to fund abortions many, many, many states away. Listen, that's the priority of my opponent. I get it, but the will of the people that I've heard from, they're not happy about it.

Governor Kathy Hochul: Lee, you can't run from your record. You're the only person standing on this stage whose name right now, not years past but right now, is on a bill called Life Begins at Conception. You did that now. I don't know how you think that people aren't going to notice your past record and the fact that your name was on the amicus brief in support of Supreme Court decision to overturn Roe v. Wade. The day after it happened, you applauded it and said, "What a great victory for life." That wasn't that long ago, Lee. People are paying attention. You can't say, "Oh, it won't happen under me." A governor has a lot of power. You even said how, in the first day-

Susan Arbetter: Thank you.

Governor Kathy Hochul: -you're willing to suspend laws. How do we know you won't do it then? I don't trust this.

Susan Arbetter: Thank you.

Governor Kathy Hochul: The women don't trust this.

Brian Lehrer: All right, back from the debate. Our Albany reporter, Jon Campbell, is with us. He has a debate fact-check article on Gothamist now. Jon, what are the facts from what we just heard there?

Jon Campbell: Well, Kathy Hochul laid out Lee Zeldin's record on abortion fairly well there. The Life at Conception Act, that is what's known as a personhood bill. It's a federal bill that essentially would say, at the moment of fertilization, you're a human being. It would give 14th Amendment rights the right to life to the unborn. That, to a lot of critics, is a very extreme measure.

That's one that Rand Paul has pushed over the years. Lee Zeldin is signed onto that bill as a co-sponsor. He did sign onto the amicus brief too as well for the Supreme Court decision on Roe v. Wade. Ahead of the Supreme Court decision on Roe v. Wade, I should say. He has what you could call an anti-abortion record. Now, he has tried to soften that in recent weeks and months, really since the Republican primary, which he won.

He has said he does not intend on changing the state's current law on abortion rights, which essentially says that you can get an abortion at any point if the life or health of the mother is in danger. He says he's not going to change that, but Democrats are convinced. You heard Kathy Hochul say that she's not convinced. They're trying to use that issue in the poll, but public polling shows that it's not as potent of an issue in New York as, say, crime and inflation, which are what Lee Zeldin is focused on.

Brian Lehrer: Zeldin is saying nothing will change if he's elected governor for no other reason because Carl Heastie, who we name-checked there, who leads the state assembly, will preserve abortion rights and not send him any such bill. Then he also leaned into a specific change he would try to make, in the clip we heard, ending New York's policy of helping to pay for some of the abortions for women coming to New York as a legal state because their home states have now criminalized them. Hochul supports that funding, of course, so that's a very specific issue difference that can help voters decide, depending on where they stand on that issue, right? He is saying he would try to change that.

Jon Campbell: Yes, and the issue of funding is a huge one for the governor because the governor has enormous sway in the state budget whether they're a Democrat or a Republican. They are an equal party essentially to the Senate and the assembly in budget negotiations, or even a stronger party because they can veto individual lines of the budget. The governor has a ton of power in the budget process. Yes, that is absolutely an area where Lee Zeldin could act in general, funding for healthcare facilities that provide abortion.

He's talking about Governor Hochul in the wake of the Dobbs decision. Actually, before the Dobbs decision after Politico had published the draft decision. She made $35 million available for abortion providers to boost access to abortion because they were anticipating an influx of out-of-state patients and also to boost security at abortion clinics, assuming that there would be protests, et cetera, et cetera, so that's what he's referring to there.

Brian Lehrer: All right, one more topic. Speaking of funding, the economy. Here's a minute of Zeldin saying he will restore fracking for natural gas in the state and lower taxes across the board, among other things that we will hear.

Lee Zeldin: We have to bring spending in this state under control. We've seen all these bailouts coming from the federal government. The state just decides that they're just going to increase spending and that becomes a new baseline for the next year. Well, what we have to do is have a state spending cap. We need to bring down taxes across the board. We should reverse the state's ban on the safe extraction of natural gas and pursue other opportunities to create more jobs and generate more revenue and revitalize communities.

We should all be able to proudly say that we are living in the greatest state and the greatest country in the history of the world. It's more difficult, though, when your state is leading the entire nation in population loss. Whether it's industry, whether it is like, for example, the people in the Southern Tier desperate for being able to reverse the state's ban on the safe extraction of natural gas, approving new pipeline applications and more generate revenue, bring spending under control in this state, bring down taxes, New York is going to be back open for business, baby. January 1st.

Brian Lehrer: That was Zeldin. Here's Hochul with her take on who's better for the jobs and the economic health of New York State.

Governor Kathy Hochul: It's so disingenuous to say you want to create jobs when you as a member of Congress vote against everything that would create jobs. You voted against the infrastructure bill. That was bipartisan. You voted against the Inflation Reduction Act that would've brought more money to help protect our environment. I know you're an election denier, but also a climate change denier. It's absurd that you live on Long Island. We're talking about the 10th anniversary of Superstorm Sandy. That federal money can be used in our state to build up resiliency so we don't lose people's lives again.

Brian Lehrer: Zeldin and Hochul from their debate last night on the economy. Our Albany reporter, Jon Campbell, is with us. He has a fact-check article on Gothamist. Jon, on the Zeldin clip, he would cut taxes across the board, including on the wealthiest New Yorkers?

Jon Campbell: That's what he says. There has not been a lot of detail to that plan, including how you would pay for it. Obviously, that is a big part of it. You also heard him talk about fracking. That was a major issue in the 2010 and 2014 gubernatorial campaigns until Governor Cuomo's administration banned high-scale hydraulic fractioning. That has been his major pitch for the upstate economy is allowing hydrofracking in the Marcellus and Utica shales, which go across the Southern Tier. You saw him fall back on that quite a bit when the issue of the upstate economy came up.

Brian Lehrer: On the fracking, he didn't deny that he's a climate denier as Hochul charged him with being in that clip. On the fracking, Governor Cuomo banned it for climate reasons, so that's another explicit issue difference. Hochul has said explicitly that she would keep the fracking ban. One thing I thought that was missing from the debate was a follow-up to Zeldin on whether he does think man-made climate change is real and a real threat to Long Island where he's from or anywhere else and what he would do about climate change. The topic doesn't appear at all on the issue pages of his website. Does he have a climate platform at all even as he would resume fracking in New York, and does he say that man-made climate change is either real or a hoax?

Jon Campbell: I don't know that he's been asked specifically the latter part of that question that explicitly. When he's been asked about, say, New York's climate laws, which are trying to implement really aggressive goals for trying to cut down climate emissions by 2030 and 2050, he said, "Well, there's aspects of that that we want to look at," right? There's a push to ban natural gas hookups in new buildings in New York. That's been a big issue in Albany that's still undecided at this point in terms of the speed of that. He says, "Well, we don't want to do that."

He said that he will give a new look at these climate laws that are going to impose major change in New York in terms of electric vehicles, things like that. I don't know that he's been asked specifically, "Is man-made climate change real? Are we to blame for climate change?" He's got policies that aren't in line certainly with the Democratic side of things, which are more embracing changes to how we live to try to combat climate change. He wasn't asked that specifically last night and I don't know that he's been asked that specifically on the campaign trail.

Brian Lehrer: There we have, some excerpts that we think are representative from last night's Spectrum News Hochul versus Zeldin debate as heard live here on WNYC as we have the radio rights to broadcast that debate. Jon Campbell's fact-checking article is out this morning on our local news website, Gothamist. Jon, thanks a lot.

Jon Campbell: Thank you so much.

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