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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone, here on day one of our annual fall membership drive. We'll ask you for your sustaining memberships later. I'll just promote right now that we've got lots of special guests and segments lined up for the show for this drive including news advice and some fun. Some of the news today will come from our own Michael Hill and Nancy Solomon after Michael was one of the moderators in last night's raucous New Jersey gubernatorial debate. We'll hear how that felt from the stage and some excerpts, including how something that happened on this show recently became one of the debate topics.

Cheryl Strayed will be here today with creativity advice. We'll have the former US poet laureate Tracy K Smith today to provide some verbal beauty and verbal meaning. Coming up later this hour we will launch a fall membership drive geography quiz series. Should be fun. There will be prizes. We'll see how well you know our area. We'll begin today with a Manhattan geography quiz coming up later this hour.

First to the New Jersey gubernatorial debate last night between Democratic governor, Phil Murphy, and Republican challenger, Jack Ciattarelli. I mentioned that our morning edition host, Michael Hill, long a New Jersey correspondent before he came here to do this was one of the questioners. He joins me now along with New Jersey editor, Nancy Solomon. Good morning, Nancy. Good morning, Michael.

Michael Hill: Good morning, Brian.

Nancy Solomon: Good morning, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Michael, set the scene for us from last night. What's the state of the race and what did you and the other moderators perceive your job to be to serve the viewers and the voters?

Michael Hill: It seems to be a narrowing race and that framed the questions for us and I think the debate last night. Some of the polls now, Monmouth Poll, for instance, has it within a single digit. It's like 9% to 13% with Murphy still having an edge. We spend a lot of time on the questions and really focusing on very pointed questions, not long drawn out questions and trying to hit a lot of topics. I think we did that last night. It was feisty amongst the candidates.

I think the crowd, as you described, was a raucous debate. It was almost hard to hear some of the answers on stage where we had to repeat some of the questions because the noise from the audience, it was almost definitely at times. I couldn't hear what the candidates-- Some of their responses, I couldn't hear. The governor mentioned something about a debate at a hockey game or something. At times, it seemed worse today.

Brian Lehrer: We'll play one clip in a few minutes that really exemplifies that where the crowd is really front and center. First, let me jump right into how something that happened here on this show recently became a topic in the debate. This listener, some of you heard, it was Thursday, September 30th and we were doing a candidate interview and call in with the Republican candidate, Jack Ciattarelli. Spoiler alert, a caller's question about white privilege stumped him. This begins with the caller Paul in Jersey City.

Paul: Hello, thank you so much Brian for taking my call. I was very appreciative of your introduction in the candidate's introduction in regards to his life experience. I'd be very curious to hear his definition of white privilege.

Brian Lehrer: Mr. Ciattarelli.

Jack Ciattarelli Yes, Brian, what's the next question?

Brian Lehrer: He asked your definition of white privilege. If you didn't hear the beginning of the call, he said he was interested in hearing you talk about your middle-class upbringing at the beginning of the segment, and with your life experience and your experience in politics, how would you define white privilege?

Jack Ciattarelli I don't really understand the question, Brian. Either you'll have to go further explaining the basis of his question or we can move on.

Brian Lehrer: There it is. That excerpt from my show in September 30th, he didn't understand the question asking him to define white privilege or put it in the context of his own life experience. Last night in the debate, one of the questioners, David Cruz, not our David Cruz who covers New York but New Jersey public television's David Cruz brought it up.

David Cruz: You were asked recently about your definition of white privilege and your policies to reduce racial inequality and you declined to answer. Can you tell us now what is white privilege and do you believe it exists? Take all of those 60 seconds.

Jack Ciattarelli: Have whites had access to things that people of color have not? Yes, that's a sad fact. Has the Black race been disadvantaged and marginalized? Yes, that's a sad fact but we need to address it. I believe that I'm addressing it by going into the Black communities with the plan I've put forth on my website. It's very specific with regards to economic development, access to healthcare, solving the Food Desert program, working with faith-based organizations that are involved in various different types of secular activities like mentorship and affordable housing. We've got to bring economic development into our Black communities that have been plagued by disinvestment for decades.

[applause]

Jack Ciattarelli: Let me say this, again, with regard to the governor's record in those very same communities; no charter schools, Black-owned firms only got 2% of public contracts when they represent 13% of the state's population, they only got 5% of the vaccines when they represent 13% of the state's population. The Black owner of an asset management firm is suing him for racial discrimination, and the most prominent pastor in the state said to him, "You can't treat Black people this way."

[crosstalk]

[applause]

Governor Phil Murphy: Somebody who suggests the school funding formula that the assemblyman is suggesting is not standing up for Black and brown communities. Period. Secondly, I hate to let facts get in the way, 31% of the money that our investment council has put to work since I've been governor has been to minority-owned firms. Thirdly, white privilege is real. The legacy of slavery is not a historical element. Let's not debate whether it exists. Let's accept it sadly and let's do something about it. We're the most diverse state in America. You've got to get that.

Brian Lehrer: Governor Phil Murphy proceeded by Republican challenger, Jack Ciattarelli, that exchange prompted by the Ciattarelli moment on our show last month. Our guests are Michael Hill, our Michael Hill who was one of the moderators in last night's debate, and our New Jersey public radio managing editor, Nancy Solomon. Michael, would you say after Ciattarelli's embarrassing exchange with a caller here made news in New Jersey that he anticipated that question and came prepared with the definition of white privilege that we just heard from him last night, and how to make the case that a Republican could be better for Black and brown New Jerseyans than a Democrat in 2021.

Michael Hill: I believe he did, Brian. I believe he got an education on it. Part of it is, without a doubt, The Brian Lehrer Show, and part of it is he knew this question was going to come up. You can't go on stage in a live audience with people watching your physical self and not answer a question like that, and appearing to be out of step with the times. You can agree with it or disagree with it but you have to have some understanding of what the debate is. I think between this show and last night's debate, I believe he got educated on.

Brian Lehrer: Nancy, Ciattarelli didn't just defend there. As we've heard, he went on the offensive against Murphy bringing up things like Murphy's refusal to expand the number of charter schools despite their popularity in mostly Black and brown urban communities as Ciattarelli represented it. The other things you heard there about black business ownership in New Jersey, and a lawsuit against Murphy by one Black business owner. Can you fact-check some of that for us?

Nancy Solomon: Sure, Brian. I do think that going on the offensive, it was a remarkable turn from the embarrassment of just a week ago to what he was able to do last night. I think it was just so cringe-worthy. You gave him even more opportunity to say what he would do in terms of policy and he wasn't able to answer you. He did a much better job last night. I think in terms of his attack on Murphy on no new charter schools in Newark, Murphy has never said whether he supports or opposes charter schools. What he said was he wanted to pause the process.

There was a lot of growth in opening charter schools during the Christie administration. I believe there are currently about 50,000 students in charter schools in the state. He asked the Department of Ed to research how the charter schools were doing and the process for opening them because they can become really controversial in each town, the battle whether a charter school should open or not. The charter school issue has passionate people on both sides.

We're surprised that Murphy didn't come back with an answer to that one. He never addressed charter schools last night. I think that leaves the door open for the Ciattarelli criticism. I don't think that means he isn't doing anything on racial inequality. Minimum wage, paid sick leave, the commission that's studying the racial wealth gap, free community college. There's a lot of things that Murphy's doing, but he didn't really turn the corner on that one last night.

Brian Lehrer: Here's another excerpt from the debate, folks. This features Michael's question to the candidates about police reform and police unions. We'll hear both candidates, and it begins with the question.

Michael Hill: Mr. Ciattarelli, you say you proudly defend the police. Should residents have a role in reviewing the conduct of law enforcement who are sworn to protect them? Would you support allowing civilian complaint review boards in New Jersey to have subpoena power? 60 seconds, please.

Jack Ciattarelli: This governor and his attorney general had been the most anti-police we've ever had. They've handcuffed our police, they've disarmed our police, they've demoralized our police. The job has never been harder. Do we need reforms? You bet we do. We need to recruit more women in the profession and more Black and brown people in the profession. We need more community policing programs to build trust and a great relationship between the community and our police.

I'm very, very fearful of the number of programs that are being talked about by the governor and other Democrats around the state, such as getting rid of qualified immunity, civilian review boards with subpoena power, putting disciplinary cases on the internet. I believe there's other ways for us to address the issues we have. I want to get rid of bad cops. I'm sorry.

Speaker 8: That's time, Mr. Ciattarelli. Thank you very much.

Jack Ciattarelli: I'm sorry.

Speaker 8: That's time, thank you.

Governor Phil Murphy: May I respond?

Michael Hill: Yes, you go ahead, sir.

Governor Phil Murphy: Two things. Number one, there's one candidate on this stage that has multiple endorsements from police unions and it's me. Number one.

[applause]

Governor Phil Murphy: Number two, we're guided by accountability and transparency that's body-worn cameras. It's training. It's deepening the relationship between police and the communities they serve. It's readdressing the use of force, which we have done in this administration. I'm the first governor since governor Kane to have funded not one but two state police training classes inside of one year and I'm proud of that.

Michael Hill: Governor, would you sign into law a subpoena power for CCRB?

Governor Phil Murphy: I don't think there's one size fits all. I apologize, I meant to say that to you. I think it works in certain places and it doesn't necessarily work in all places. It's now currently existing in two communities. I would take it on a case-by-case basis.

Brian Lehrer: That excerpt from last night's debate with Murphy and Ciattarelli and our Michael Hill who asked that question, and did a good job following up there and making sure Murphy actually answered the actual question. Michael is with us and Nancy Solomon, our New Jersey public radio managing editor. Nancy, about policing in New Jersey and that exchange, that was interesting about the Republican not getting any police union endorsements according to Murphy. Is it true? If so, why?

Nancy Solomon: It is true. It's considered a problem for him because it is often the Republican who gets the police union endorsements. He's been attacking Murphy because the second-largest police union didn't endorse Murphy after enduring endorsing him in 2017. That's because they were mad at Christie for having not paid into the pension fund. I think the police unions are happy with Murphy about the pension payments that he's made.

They are unhappy about his support for the Black Lives Matter movement, for more community monitoring, for civilian review boards, for the attorney general's office, having state monitoring and investigations of police. They're not happy with that. Ciattarelli is going after voters who support police over some of these reforms. It's a viable tactic for him in these debates.

Brian Lehrer: The nj.com headline this morning called it a heated debate. We're going to hear an example of that in a minute. The Politico New Jersey main angle this morning is that Ciattarelli tried to tack to the center, especially on abortion rights because he promised to codify certain abortion rights though not others in state law if the Supreme Court overturns Roe v Wade. One final clip from the debate which to my ear drew the most audience response and this is in the context of "culture wars." You'll hear jeers mostly from Ciattarelli's supporters in the audience when Murphy said this in his closing remarks.

Governor Phil Murphy: Do we stand with our sacred democracy or do we stand with Confederate flags and white supremacists and a pack of lies?

[jeers]

Governor Phil Murphy: Do we continue to make the tough.

Brian Lehrer: The audience was the star of that clip. Michael, Murphy didn't say the name Trump there but was that the point?

Michael Hill: I would say Trump and I would also say Ciattarelli to a certain extent because he had to defend and explain why he was at a Stop The Steal rally and so forth. Clearly, I think it was meant toward Trump without a doubt.

Brian Lehrer: Nancy, your thought on that moment and Ciattarelli's blowing hot and cold on Trump depending on the moment and apparently veering right, veering center at different moments.

Nancy Solomon: I think that clip really shows how many Trump supporters there were in that audience because they were being quiet up to that point. As soon as Murphy mentioned Confederate flags and he started to go into the Stop The Steal, that's when it erupted. I think Ciattarelli courted Trump's supporters during the primary, and now he's trying to move to the middle. He did a pretty effective job of it last night.

The key is how motivated are Democrats to turn out and how much will the Stop The Steal rally really hurt Ciattarelli? Murphy has a lot more money in the bank than Ciattarelli does for the last three weeks of the campaign. If they're in trouble, if their polling shows that it's really tightening, which I think it will, then they're going to pour it on. Of course, I don't have a crystal ball. Is that going to be the difference? I don't know.

Brian Lehrer: I didn't know that at the end of that closing statement, Murphy did say, "Don't take this election for granted." Clearly, he was talking to Democrats not to assume he's just going to win, that they actually have to show up at the polls. That concludes this segment on the New Jersey gubernatorial debate last night. Michael, you did a great job. You did the debate last night, you did membership drive fundraising through morning edition today, and now you are good enough to extend even further and come on the show. I hope you're getting the rest of the day off.

Brian Lehrer: I am, Brian.

[chuckling]

[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: We'll hear you tomorrow morning. Nancy Solomon, thanks as always.

Nancy Solomon: Thanks, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC on Manhattan geography quiz with Gale Brewer coming up next.

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