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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer, on WNYC. Yes, now's the time of year when those of you who celebrate Christmas are likely putting up your trees. I saw the tree stand show up on the street the very day after Thanksgiving, as most of you probably have, especially if you're in the city or any shopping area around the region. If you haven't picked out your tree yet, maybe you're engaging in one of the great debates of the holiday season, should you go with a real tree again this year, or finally purchase an artificial one?

Real trees have that beautiful pine set, and a sense of tradition, yet adventure, in a certain way. You have to go and pick it out, be it in the forest or from a guy with a stand on the corner. It's more of a family activity when you get a real tree. It's much more exciting than buying a full one at Costco, or pulling it out of your storage unit, right? Watering the tree, sweeping up the fall and pine needles, making sure your dog doesn't eat the tree, it's a hassle.

Also, what about the environmental cost of cutting down so many trees every year? Is replacing it with plastic, actually a better environmental option? While we ultimately can't decide how much effort you're willing to put into your holiday planning this year, if the environmental impact of your tree is a factor in your decision, our guests may help you settle this debate. Joining us now is Bill Ulfelder, forester and executive director of The Nature Conservancy here in New York. Bill, welcome to WNYC.

Bill Ulfelder: Thanks, Brian, it's great to be with you this morning. This is a great topic and it's the right time of year.

Brian Lehrer: You want to start off with a quick take? Which is more sustainable, real trees or artificial trees?

Bill Ulfelder: Unquestionably, real trees.

Brian Lehrer: Huh.

Bill Ulfelder: I encourage everyone, if you can do a real tree, that's the best way to go for the holiday spirit, as you said in the introduction, but also for doing good for the environment, hands down.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, want to either weigh in or ask a question, what kind of tree do you prefer, a real one or an artificial one, and why? 212-433-WNYC. We'll also take your questions regarding tree shopping for our guest, Bill Ulfelder, forester and executive director of The Nature Conservancy in New York. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 call or text. Want to elaborate on that answer, why is real tree growing and harvesting, even though we plant them only to cut them down, a more sustainable option?

Bill Ulfelder: It is. It's a whole number of reasons. The first is that real trees-- One of the magical things about trees and forests is, they take carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas out of the atmosphere, combine that with water, and what do they produce? They produce glucose so they can grow, and then they would release clean oxygen into the atmosphere. It's taking a negative CO2 out and giving us back oxygen.

Also, tree farms there, they help clean water, prevent erosion. They provide wildlife habitat. I'm out driving around or riding around, I would much rather see a Christmas tree farm than condos. There's also a great economic benefit. Nationally, there are about 15,000 Christmas tree farms across the country. These tend to be family-owned businesses. They provide about 100,000 jobs a year, and a billion dollars into the US economy, but perhaps most important at the end of the day, is, also, a real tree can have another life after the holidays.

Whether that's mulching, like right here, in New York City, at MulchFest. When I was a kid visiting my grandparents on the Massachusetts shore, when we used to ride out to the beach in her squeaky wagoneer, there were all these old Christmas trees lined up on the beach and on the edge of the dunes, and they were preventing beach erosion caused by the wind. There are a whole bunch of different ways to give a Christmas tree new life after the holidays.

Whereas an artificial one ultimately is just going into the landfill. I will say this, if you're going with an artificial tree, and I know there are reasons to do that, the best thing you can do is use that tree as many times as possible, 10, 15, 20 years before you have to send it to the landfill. That will reduce the environmental impacts of that tree by spreading it over time.

Brian Lehrer: That's a good tip for people who are, for whatever reason, committed to artificial trees. Keep the same one and use as many years as possible.

Bill Ulfelder: Absolutely, absolutely. You alluded to this in the intro, is-- Artificial trees, we use a whole bunch of energy these days, mostly overseas, mostly coal-fired energy to create this thing out of plastic. There's a carbon footprint right from the start, it tends to get shipped from overseas to the United States, where it's purchased, and then it just becomes this inert thing in a landfill.

The best way to offset all of those carbon emissions from the production and transit is to spread that life, that useful life of the artificial tree, as long as possible. That's it. Keep getting it out year after year, if that's the route you're going to go.

Brian Lehrer: Barbara in Bay Ridge, you're on WNYC. Hi, Barbara.

Barbara: Hi. I'm calling because my brother, a retired firefighter, has finally convinced me that putting such a flammable object in your house in the middle of winter is insane. If you've ever seen a video of a [unintelligible 00:06:08] Christmas tree going up in an apartment, I think you'll be convinced too. I love real trees. I've always had them, but not this year. Okay, sorry to put a damper on it.

Brian Lehrer: No, no, I'm glad you raised that issue. You can put the real tree by the entrance to the apartment, right next to the e-bike. [laughs] What about that, Bill, the fire hazard aspect?

Bill Ulfelder: Yes, look, obviously, real trees are more flammable than an artificial one, but the statistics show there aren't a hugely significant number of Christmas tree fires in a given year. I think while the risk is there, if you keep your tree watered-- You're right, just this morning, I checked on our tree, our tree is already up for the holidays. It adds so much character and joy to our home.

It's such a wonderful experience to come out, and as you said, smell that scent in the morning in the apartment, but if you keep it watered, and you make sure that you have properly functioning lights, and your outlet, making sure that everything's functioning, I think the risk is so minimal that the benefits and the joy that it brings, as well as the environmental benefits, are worth it.

Brian Lehrer: Marie, in Maplewood, you're on WNYC. Hi, Marie.

Marie: Hi, how are you? Yes, real trees all the way. For all the wonderful reasons you listed, the pine scent. It's just lovely to have a living tree in your home. As a side note, when we had two cats, they never climbed on the tree. They always liked to nestle under the tree every night and sleep there. It was like their little haven. What I wanted to say about sustainability was that we live very close to the Turtleback Zoo.

One of our options is to get the tree to the zoo, where they use it for fodder or bedding, or food for certain animals. That's an option. Also, our township will collect the tree and mulch it, but the Turtleback Zoo option is really interesting for us.

Brian Lehrer: That's a great one, Marie, thank you very much. Do you know, Bill, what various municipalities do with the real Christmas trees after the season? New York City sanitation department, for example, in my neighborhood and Upper Manhattan, I know there's a tree collection point at one of the entrances to Inwood Hill Park, where people are encouraged to bring their Christmas trees in early January. Some people just put them out on the street, in front of the buildings. Do you know if they actually get put to use?

Bill Ulfelder: Yes, they certainly do. I love the story about the cats and the zoo. I'll come back to that in a minute, but here in New York City, we really do have wonderful options, and the city does do a great job. It basically breaks one of two ways. You just mentioned the drop-off points, and there are something like over 100 MulchFest drop-off points all over the city. We have one in Riverside Park, where if we just take our tree a couple of blocks, after Christmas and New Year's, you start seeing all the trees piling up.

This year, on January 6th and 7th of the coming year, that's the weekend when all the mulching happens. I think it's 10:00 AM to 2:00 PM on January 6th and 7th. If you're there and helping with that mulching process, you can actually take a giant bag of mulch home with you, whether you want to put that in a tree bed out front of your apartment or your home, or use it somewhere around your property. Then you're right, Brian, the sanitation department does a tremendous job.

They're about 10 days, I think they typically start around January 6th, and they run a period there, where if your trees are just out on the curb, they will pick those trees up. The difference is, when you're doing Mulchfest, that's being made into mulch to spread in the parks and the city gardens, and institutions around the city, when the city's picking them up, they do tend to mulch them, but what they're more doing is generating biogas from composting and emissions, capturing that, and then using that as an energy to fuel city activities.

Both are good options, but I think the mulching one is the best one. I love the zoo example. The one other thing I've heard of, of wildlife departments across the country, in addition to mulching trees or using them to prevent wind erosion at beaches and dunes, is sinking trees in lakes, ponds, and rivers to provide habitat for fish and other aquatic species. There's just a whole host of options that are out there, and New York City, thankfully, makes it really easy for us to give our trees another life.

Brian Lehrer: We just heard a heartwarming story about a cat nestling under the Christmas tree. Jennifer, in New Brunswick, has a horror story about a cat and a Christmas tree, I think. Jennifer, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Jennifer: Hi. Glad to be here. I'd much prefer a live Christmas tree. The smell, it's beautiful, and I know it's more sustainable, but a couple of years ago, one of our cats could not help himself and he kept munching on the Christmas tree, and he got a fungal infection from it, and that did eventually kill him.

Brian Lehrer: Oh.

Jennifer: We've been doing an artificial Christmas tree for the last couple of years, but we did buy a secondhand one, so I feel like I'm helping out anyway, it didn't go into a landfill and I'll use it as long as I can.

Brian Lehrer: Jennifer, thank you. Merry Christmas. Bill, believe it or not, we have two calls, Jennifer's and one other. I'm not going to take the other one, Jennifer made the point about tree fungus on Christmas trees causing reactions.

Bill Ulfelder: That's a horribly tragic story. As a pet lover and owner, like-- Wow, that is not what you are hoping for in the holidays. I think there just are going to be instances, whether it's worry about pets, or I've met people over the years who have allergies. They actually can't have the real tree because of certain responses that that triggers in them, but I love the idea, and this had never occurred to me, of purchasing a already-- we'll call it previously used artificial tree, and then even further extending the life out.

There will be, again, as I say, instances where folks, for whatever reason, it might be cost, it might be allergy, it might be protection of pets, just keep using that tree as long as possible, and I love that. Don't send it to the landfill. See if somebody else might be interested in using your tree after you, and just further extending that life.

Brian Lehrer: A certified pre-owned plastic tree after a 15-point inspection. Can you buy a living tree? Do you have a preference at the Nature Conservancy, about where we buy real Christmas trees from? Do you recommend going to farms where they actually sell them if you drive in, or go in, or should we purchase them from somebody at a stand in the neighborhood, and it doesn't matter?

Bill Ulfelder: It's a great question, and I'll say again, live trees ultimately are the best sustainable and environmental option, but there are some choices folks can make. There are a number of tree stands and sellers around the city, who sell organic trees. That's pretty cool. That's an even heightened environmental benefit. If you are going to go out into the countryside, and you basically can go in any direction, Long Island, Connecticut, New Jersey, upstate New York, we've done upstate New York and Jersey over the years.

I think look-- You make some choices about the farm. You probably don't want to drive too far, just to keep the carbon emissions down that way, but the other thing, which some folks might do, and you might only be able to do this if you have a yard, but when I was growing up as a kid, we bought live trees that still had the root ball. We were living in North Carolina at the time, so we could actually plant the tree after 12th night in the epiphany. We just dug a big hole, the ground wasn't frozen, but if you live in a cold place--

Brian Lehrer: You mean you re-dug it up the following year?

Bill Ulfelder: Well, no, what you do is, you just plant it. Then, over several Christmases, we started-

Brian Lehrer: Oh, I see.

Bill Ulfelder: -planting these fir trees in our yard, and eventually, birds started nesting them. We watched them grow as we got older, my brother and I. Buying a live tree with a root ball and being able to plant that on your private property might be the absolutely most sustainable thing you could do, in terms of a live tree for the holidays.

Brian Lehrer: I will punctuate that with a last thought as we run out of time, from a listener who texted us. "We use a live tree most for more than one year, and then we plant it, using them as a perimeter planting in the yard." There we leave it on real trees and fake trees, with Bill Ulfelder, Forester and Executive Director of the Nature Conservancy in New York. Merry Christmas, happy holidays, whatever you celebrate. Thank you for coming on and talking about the trees.

Bill Ulfelder: Thanks so much, Brian. Happy holidays to you and all of your listeners.

Brian Lehrer: That's The Brian Lehrer Show for today. Produced by Mary Croke, Lisa Allison, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, and Esperanza Rosenbaum. Zach Gottehrer-Cohen produces our Daily Politics podcast. Our intern this term is Muskan Nagpal. Megan Ryan is the head of live radio. Juliana Fonda, and who? Milton Ruiz today? Shayna Sengstock at the audio control. Stay tuned for Alison.

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