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Mayor Eric Adams: When I sat down with the doctors, because I’ve always stated we’re going to go based on the science, they were clear. They said, "Eric, we could remove the Key to NYC that allowed gyms, restaurants, and others," but they said, "We need to keep in place the mandate for those who are in professional employees or workers. That includes city workers as well.”

President Volodymyr Zelenskyy: [Ukrainian language].

Borough President Mark Levine: We need to be part of the sanctions regime because this is a city which for decades has provided safe harbor for the assets of oligarchs of a plutocracy, who have particularly had a predilection to buy ultra high-end luxury apartments as a way to launder their money. That we need to seize those assets, seize those properties now.

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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. In that opening montage for today, we heard Mayor Eric Adams saying the vaccine mandate for employees of New York businesses will remain in place even as it gets lifted for patrons of restaurants and certain other indoor venues. We heard Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy in Ukrainian asking Russian troops to put down their weapons and not believe their government's propaganda. You might have recognized, even in Ukrainian, the words Russian propaganda.

We heard Manhattan Borough President Mark Levine, who wants something about New York City to be part of the sanctions pressure on Moscow. That's how we begin on this Tuesday, March 1st. The world is rallying behind the underdog country that's trying to stand up to Putin's army. A patchwork of mask mandates and vaccine mandates are coming off or staying on in New York City and vicinity. We'll help you understand which. We welcome now the Manhattan borough president himself, Mark Levine. Borough President, welcome back to WNYC.

Borough President Mark Levine: Thank you, Brian, for having me.

Brian Lehrer: If we thought a borough president would be here on local news and other people on the war in Europe today, as our listeners just heard, it's not that simple. Can you expand on the role of New York City real estate and the pressure you're hoping the city can help put on Russia?

Borough President Mark Levine: This crisis in Ukraine, Brian, is also a crisis for New York City, first, because we are home to the largest community of Ukrainian-Americans in the country, and of course, the storied neighborhood of Little Ukraine in the Lower East Side. Also because for years, decades really, this has been one of the favorite safe harbors, Manhattan has been, of Russian oligarchs who have in particular used high-end ultra-luxury real estate as a way to park their money.

We need to stand up now and do our part to fight back against this immoral and inexcusable war against the people of Ukraine. That means seizing those assets to put pressure on the Putin regime, and to send a message to the world that this behavior will not be tolerated.

Brian Lehrer: Seizing those assets. I see you tweeted a New York Post story with a map showing the names and addresses of certain Russian oligarchs reportedly linked to Putin, I guess, and their fancy Manhattan digs. Oleg Deripaska, 11 E 64th Street, a $42 million property, plus one at 12 Gay Street in the Village. Dmitry Rybolovlev 15 Central Park West, an $88 million penthouse apartment that he bought from former Citigroup honcho, Sanford Weill, reportedly for Rybolovlev's daughter in a trust, and there's a whole list.

People from Russia are allowed to own real estate here like anyone else no matter what we think of the prices and the effects on the economy. In what ways are these Manhattan homes connected to the invasion of Ukraine, or how close do they have to be, these individuals, to Vladimir Putin?

Borough President Mark Levine: We have a broader problem of foreign buyers using Manhattan real estate to launder money which we should crack down on, and that was true before this crisis, but we have an urgent need to put pressure on that circle of oligarchs who is close to Putin. Alexei Navalny, the prominent Russian dissident, has identified 35 of these individuals. As a way to put economic pressure on Putin and to send a message. To do that, we need federal action. We need the US Treasury Department to add these individuals to the list of people who are sanctioned. Then that could set off a whole chain of events, including potentially action by law enforcement. Many of these properties are well-known because they're marquee properties--

Brian Lehrer: Borough President, your sound just faded. We may have to call you back. Can you hear me? All right, we're having a little audio problem with the Borough President. I'm sure we'll get that fixed in a few seconds. Meanwhile, let me open up the phones. Listeners, we can take some phone calls for Manhattan Borough President Mark Levine on topics from the $88 million Manhattan penthouse owned by a Russian oligarch. Should it and other such properties be subject in some way to sanctions in support of freedom for Ukraine? That to the mask and vaccine mandates and anything else relevant to Mark Levine at 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692, or you can tweet @BrianLehrer.

Here's a tweet that just came in relative to the exchange we're just having. It says, "Oligarchs use American LLCs- those corporations, "-to purchase property. Those LLCs are embedded in many others. It's impossible to crack down on these properties," says this one tweeter. Borough President, I think we have you back now. Are you there? You there, Borough President?

Borough President Mark Levine: I am here. I apologize.

Brian Lehrer: Okay. Sure. I was asking you what would happen? How do we know that individuals--? Just because they have Russian names doesn't mean that they're Vladimir Putin enablers. How do you know which properties that you would like the federal government to enable you to seize?

Borough President Mark Levine: This is the job of the federal government, the State Department, and in particular is the US Treasury Department that has an office for foreign asset seizure. They need to identify the list of people who are close to Vladimir Putin. We can take our cues from dissidents within Russia and other public records, but the time is now to add those people to the sanction list. We need federal action on that.

I'm actually hopeful that, perhaps in his State of the Union address tonight, President Biden might announce this. So far, there's only been a very limited circle of people who have been added. We want that expanded to include the dozens of men who have profited off this regime and are parking their assets here in the US.

Brian Lehrer: If those sanctions were placed, what would become of these luxury apartments? Who would own them, who would get kicked out, and then what?

Borough President Mark Levine: They would be essentially padlocked, and no one would be able to reside there. They would be held in custody until such time as the sanctions were removed. There's actually precedent to this. The government even seized an entire office building in Midtown Manhattan in 2006 that had been hidden behind shell corporations, but ultimately, ownership was traced to an Iranian entity that was on the list of people who had been financing terrorism. There's precedent for this. There's a legal structure in place, and it's time to act now.

Brian Lehrer: What would the implications be, if any, for New York City's tax base or economy if this took place?

Borough President Mark Levine: I wouldn't dispute the fact that there'd be serious harm to the New York City economy, but I will say that even if that were the case, we need to move forward. The nature of sanctions is that they do incur costs on the countries or the places that are imposing them, but we have an imperative to punish Russia for these actions and to ensure that the people who are enabling Vladimir Putin pay a price. Even if it were to cost us, I think this is still worth doing, but I dispute the fact that it would be a terrible economic blow for us.

Brian Lehrer: While we were getting reconnected, I read a tweet that came in from a listener who said, "Oligarchs use American LLCs to purchase property. Those LLCs are embedded in many others," meaning American shell companies within American companies. "It's impossible to crack down on these properties," says this tweeter. Any reaction?

Borough President Mark Levine: It is difficult, but it is not impossible. Actually, it is getting easier because about a year ago, Congress passed a law to reveal ownership structures for these entities, actually over the objection of the Trump administration, in part because Trump Tower was really a pioneer in these kinds of transactions.

The Congress blinked in the end and didn't allow the public transparency, didn't allow the public to see in to these ownership structures but law enforcement now can. It is getting easier. There's some legwork that's needed. Look, one enterprising reporter at the New York Post was able to identify many. Let's start and let's use the new powers that Congress has given us to pull back the veil on some of these LLCs.

Brian Lehrer: Some other interesting tweets on this coming up. One cites someone who told The Financial Times the environment for oligarchs had "deteriorated because of the standoff between Russia and the west, but on a personal level, it's friendly because people made a distinction between the oligarchs' label and us personally not," says this tweeter, I think supporting your position.

Someone else agree with Levine 100%. If they seize those assets, it's no less possible instead of economic harm to the city, that there might be more housing available. Along those lines, another one writes, let's see, "Can Michael Bloomberg's we welcome the billionaires be a part of this conversation? He knew exactly who some of them were." Do you also place this as Manhattan borough president in a New York City affordable housing context?

Borough President Mark Levine: Oh, there's no doubt that the money coming in at these high-end properties is distorting the housing market, and it's increasing prices for all of us ultimately. It's one reason why even before this crisis, we needed to crack down. The mayor of London this week is called for a transaction tax on overseas buyers of properties in London beyond just Russian oligarchs. We should do that here too. It's distorting our housing market and it's also immoral that people use New York City to launder ill-gotten money.

Brian Lehrer: Let's stay another phone call on exactly this issue. We are going to get into other things as well with Manhattan Borough President Mark Levine, but again, on big foreign money purchases of New York real estate in general. I'm going to go-- No, that line is now occupied. Sorry. Let me start then with Saudatu in Hempstead. You're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in. Hello?

Saudatu: Yes. Hi, how are you?

Brian Lehrer: Good. What you got for us?

Saudatu: Thank you for having me. In terms of certain people's financial dealings with Russia, I have issues with it because I'm from the continent of Africa and there's a lot of atrocity that is committed there that people have investment in the US that never get bind to it. They never put sanctions to them. They still operate and function regular, and yet you cannot just put sanction on anyone just because they're from Russia and say, "Oh, it's a Russian oligarch. Therefore, we should hold their funds or keep them from doing their business." You have to do a thorough deep-dive investigation before you can put sanction on people.

Giving up people's addresses and saying, "Oh yes, they're from Russia. Therefore, all of them bind to it," that is also wrong because you're in danger in their family because you want to put out there and say, "Oh, this person has a property. Therefore, we should sanction them." You're endangering their family members because someone who's listening whose family is suffering from this war can then now put them as a target. You cannot put target on regular people because you want to sanction some. You have to do it right. You have to investigate because there are many atrocities that are being committed not just in Europe, in the continent and Africa that people are not being sanctioned for. They're not being held responsible.

Brian Lehrer: Saudatu, thank you so much for your call and raising those issues. Borough President, she put at least two things on the table. One is what about people connected to other governments who aren't as much in the news who are also committing atrocities and also hold property in New York City. Yes, you tweeted out that map with people's names and addresses. Is that putting those individuals who may not have committed any atrocity themselves at unfair risk?

Borough President Mark Levine: First, I agree with Saudatu's point that it's not just Russia. There are billionaires from many other countries who are parking their assets here. I just explained that we need to crack down on this more broadly, and that was true before this crisis. I hope we will now. I also hope that we don't turn a blind eye to human rights violations in other parts of the world where that might not be in the news right now. As for the personal targeting, virtually none of these oligarchs live on a regular basis in these apartments. Often they're empty, you can see the lights out in some of these towers at night because so few people are there.

The US Treasury Department is very careful that they don't put people on the sanctions list simply because of what country they're from. In the case of this Russian crisis, they're doing it for people who are implicated, who are connected to the regime in some way. I trust that they would do that again. That's not a short list, undoubtedly in the dozens and probably more and many of them have property here. They need to be held accountable. They can't keep getting a free ride and being offered safe Harbor here. I'm all for taking action.

Brian Lehrer: Here's another suggestion of what to do perhaps on the economic sanctions level that might have ties to banks in New York. Riaz in Teaneck, you're on WNYC with Manhattan Borough President Mark Levine. Hi, Riaz.

Riaz: Thank you for taking my call. This is my suggestion. Because he did great harm to Europe and Ukraine, all the money which is in our banks and in European banks, it should be used to rebuild Ukraine. Should not be given back because they will do it again. They destroyed it and they should pay for it.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. That's an interesting proposal. That's a little above the head of the Manhattan borough president's office, but take some of the money that gets frozen and give it to Ukrainians as reparations for the damage that the Russians are doing in their country right now.

Borough President Mark Levine: I'm all for that, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: One more on this return the page, Sonya on-- where are you? Long Island. Are you in Glen Cove?

Sonya: No, I'm in Glen Spey, New York in Sullivan County. Good morning, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Hi there.

Sonya: Good morning, Mr. Levine. I think that this is a fabulous idea. We have a huge Ukrainian community up here too, and I would like to support them.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Are you seeing the Ukrainian community in Sullivan County, that's the Catskills for people who don't know, be visible at all?

Sonya: Oh, yes. We have organizations here and we are trying to support them locally, but by the time this aid gets to the Ukrainians, I am afraid the war is going to be over. What do I have? A 40-mile tank convoy going now into the Ukraine.

Brian Lehrer: That's right. The Russian military definitely still on the march. The resistance for all the heroism that's been reported is not yet successful and we don't know how this is going to turn out. Later in the show, we are going to get a report from a Ukrainian journalist. That's coming up later after we do some other things. We wanted to start with this Manhattan real estate angle that Manhattan Borough President Mark Levine has been in the news for here locally for a few days. We have done that. We're going to turn the page with him and talk about other New York City issues right now.

Then we're going to come back a little later to the Ukraine story and the Ukraine resistance and talk to a Ukrainian journalist coming up. Borough President Levine, changing topics. Here we are on March 1st. The city has made it through the Omicron winter, I think we can say, with a zillion cases and too many deaths, but now it's way, way down. The numbers reported by the state yesterday were only six deaths in the city from COVID in the previous day. That's back around the lowest of the pandemic like last summer. The positivity rate is under 2%, people getting PCR tests. Where are you on unmasking and unmandating?

Borough President Mark Levine: Brian, you are right. We have made incredible progress in beating back this pandemic from the horrible highs of Omicron in early January. Of course, we're just exhausted now almost exactly two years into this pandemic. I do think we have a chance for a real reopening this spring, but we are still seeing about 800 or 900 cases a day. I want to caution that we still have more work to do to fully beat this pandemic back. I would have preferred a slightly more measured pace of lifting of the restrictions for that reason.

On the schools' front, we got data last week for the first time that showed that hundreds of schools have only about a third of students vaccinated at this point. I would have preferred we made more progress on that before lifting masks. As for the vaccine screening in private businesses, I actually think this has been good for business. I've heard that from many restauranteurs because this is a city where over 95% of adults have gotten at least their first vaccine shot. It's been helpful for many of us to have a place where we can be safe and not worry about whether the person next to us is unvaccinated.

I guess my biggest message is that while we celebrate the progress, we still take this seriously, that we still remember people who are vulnerable in this city. There are a million people in New York City who are unvaccinated. That's particularly children obviously under 5, but also fewer than half of kids age 5 to 11 have been vaccinated. We still have many vulnerable New Yorkers who are immunocompromised. Let's celebrate our progress and look forward to a great spring while continuing to be cautious in the face of a pandemic, which still could rear its ugly head again.

Brian Lehrer: I think people right now are a little confused in many cases about what's on and what's off in terms of mandates. Maybe this is obvious, but maybe it is worth saying out loud, masks are not vaccines and vaccines are not masks and the rules are different for each. Let's take masks first. For schools and for other public places, what's changing at the state level and the City level.

Borough President Mark Levine: On masks in schools, the governor on Sunday issued an order that local governments could make the decision. There was no longer statewide mandate for masking. Just a few minutes after that, Mayor Adams announced that the city was going to lift mask mandates as of this coming Monday, barring some sort of unforeseen spike or other event in the coming week.

Brian Lehrer: The reason to wait till Monday, and people thought Governor Hochul was going to do this too, is to wait for this one week after winter break to play out and see if there's a spike in the schools from whatever the kids might be bringing back from their family contacts, and then judge whether to lift the mask mandates for schools. The governor decided to move more quickly than that. The city, for those of you in the New York City school system, the mask mandate stays in effect for the rest of this week, and then Mayor Adams is going to see, right?

Borough President Mark Levine: That's right. It's highly unlikely that there'll be any change in this plan, honestly, and unlikely that we'd see any dramatic movement in the numbers so quickly, particularly considering the further limited testing in the schools. I'm assuming that this will go forward as planned on Monday. Remember that a couple of weeks ago, the governor had lifted a statewide mandate for private businesses that don't screen for vaccination like supermarkets and pharmacies and bodegas and laundromats, et cetera.

There's no longer a mask mandate in place there though a few businesses have opted to keep those in place like Broadway, most notably. Do you want to talk about the new vaccination rules?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, let's talk about vaccines. We played the clip earlier of Mayor Adams saying the vaccine mandate is being removed for customers of restaurants and gyms and theaters and other venues like those. Removed for the customers, but not for the employees. Vaccine mandates still in effect for public and private sector employees going into workplaces. When does this change take effect? Do you understand the distinction that he's making there?

Borough President Mark Levine: The employer mandate for vaccination has been extremely successful here in New York City, and one of the main reasons why our vaccination rate is so and so much higher than the rest of the country. As I mentioned, we're in the mid-90s on vaccination rates, or at least the first shot for adults in New York City, which is really remarkable.

Again, as of Monday, barring a unforeseen spike, the mayor did leave some wiggle room there, but again, I don't expect any change. Monday, the Key to NYC program as it's called will be ended. This is the program that requires screening for vaccination at all sorts of indoor public venues; restaurants, museums, movie theaters, gyms, et cetera. Importantly, those types of businesses or institutions could continue to screen, and it's important that the city provided legal backup for that.

Brian Lehrer: In other words, they can still do it independently as private business decisions on a case-by-case basis?

Borough President Mark Levine: Right.

Brian Lehrer: Like you mentioned the Broadway theaters still have the mask mandate. You said they will also have a vaccine mandate for theatergoers, or they are still allowed to and it's going to be up to them theater by theater, right?

Borough President Mark Levine: The Broadway industry as a whole, the producers have stated they're going to continue with both the mask and vaccine mandate in Broadway theaters for now. That could change and it's at their discretion. I expect some restaurants will continue to screen, some customers are demanding it because they want to feel safe and it's been good for business. Some employees in these restaurants, [clears throat] excuse me, are also demanding it because employees have no choice but to be there.

Brian Lehrer: That's the question that I was going to ask as a follow-up. This is really a question for the mayor, but I'm curious to get opinion about it. The distinction that the mayor made that employees still need the vaccine mandate as a rule from the government as a matter of worker protection, while customers have more choice where to go or not, so the mandate for vaccines can be removed from them. I could argue that to protect my workers, I need the customers to be vaccinated because that's who's coming in and breathing on them where the workers have no choice, so the distinction breaks down if workers' safety is the goal. How much do you agree with that premise?

Borough President Mark Levine: I think worker safety is one of the goals. Also, public safety is the goal because the public may have no choice, but to interact with say a government agency, and to know that the employer you're dealing with is vaccinated is an important protection. The employee mandate has been helpful all around for both employees and the public, and it's important that it continue. Vaccination, Brian remains, [clears throat] excuse me, a critically important tool, our best tool still. We are actually behind on boosters. Actually, less than half of adults have been boosted.

Brian Lehrer: My question is the other way around. It's not why don't we lift it on everybody, it's if you're going to protect the workers, if that's the goal, why shouldn't customers entering these workspaces need to be vaccinated too? You don't lift the no smoking in restaurants rule for customers but not for waiters. [chuckles] Why wouldn't it be consistent if worker protection is the mayor's goal to keep it on for customers, for patrons too?

Borough President Mark Levine: As I mentioned, I would have rather remained in place for a little longer for the reasons that you stated. I am worried that this will remove an incentive to vaccination at a time when we still have a long way to go. I don't want the public to misinterpret this as meaning that you no longer need to get vaccinated because you do, very much. It remains a critical form of protection. The Omicron wave really validated that. You talked about mixed messaging to the public. I think messaging right now has to be crystal clear that we have made enormous progress against this pandemic, but we still have work to do individually and collectively.

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute with Manhattan Borough President Mark Levine in your calls and tweets. Say with us.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC as we talk to the Manhattan borough president, Mark, Levine about a number of things. He's being outspoken in calling for the federal government to place the specific kind of sanctions on Russian oligarchs that would allow seizure of some of their very high price properties in York City as a way of placing pressure on Russia to help Ukraine, and also helping the city I think is part of Mark Levine's argument here. We're talking about the patchwork of mask and vaccine mandates now staying on and coming off.

We'll get into other things as well. We're getting some callers on each of these things. Let me ask you, before we go to a call, just to finish the thread we were on about vaccine mandates before. I know you're the Manhattan borough president, not Brooklyn, but Brooklyn Nets fans want to know as they aim for an NBA championship while the Manhattan Knicks are a laughing stock, do the new vaccine rules mean Kyrie Irving can play home games at Barclays Center or still no?

Borough President Mark Levine: No, because if you are employed by an organization in New York City and you work in in person, you must be vaccinated. I have to say it's really disappointing that someone with such a big platform, who's a role model to so many young people is not protecting himself and the people around him with this lifesaving vaccine that has proven to be safe. I really hope that now he'll do it, but the law is still very clear in New York City. He's an employee of a New York City organization who works in person so he needs to be vaccinated.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a call on the Manhattan luxury real estate in the hands of oligarchs. Ed in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hi, Ed.

Ed: Hi. I think one thing that should be looked at first is that many of the luxury apartments and houses that these oligarchs own are vacant. They're just their investment properties. I've read things previously that they are vacant. Maybe those are the first apartments they should padlock, first properties they should padlock. It'd be easier to do.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. That's been a policy agenda item for some people for a while. If the price of Manhattan real estate is being pushed up by foreign oligarchs or Americans to buy just as investment properties and keep them vacant, that there's something about that vacancy that rankles and that maybe should be illegal in some way. Are you on board with anything like that?

Borough President Mark Levine: This is a different, but related problem. I haven't heard people saying it should be illegal, but certainly, there have been proposals to institute a PA deterrent tax so that people who are not paying income tax here because they're not residents have to chip in more to support city services. There are some legal complications to that. One cleaner solution is the kind of thing that the mayor of London is proposing, which is a tax at the time of purchase or transfer of the property which would still generate a lot of revenue.

The general principle is right. We have a lot of real estate being consumed by people who don't live here. It's distorting the broader market, and we're not getting income tax off these individuals despite the fact that, of course, if there's a fire in the building, we're going to provide fire service, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It's really not fair and part of the broader problem we need to address

Brian Lehrer: Margarito in Queens, you're on WNYC. Hi, Margarito. Is it Margarito there on line three? Do we have you?

Margarito: Hello. Hello.

Brian Lehrer: Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. You're on the air. Hi.

Margarito: My uncle's name is Margarito. He is from the Philippines. I am Philippine-American. He was a master feather duster for Imelda Marcos. He proposes that these apartments for the rich peoples become educational centers. They are closed. They are just investments. Maybe make them into COVID centers where people can learn about vaccination. Everybody must be masked. People can be encouraged to become vaccinated in these centers, and they can have a beautiful view of Central Park West. Imelda Marcos also has properties. The Marcos, the Dutertes, the Ibn Sauds of Saudi Arabia.

The oligarchs are not limited to Russia right now. We must learn about oligarchs. One of these apartments must be turned into what is an oligarch. Everybody must learn what is an oligarch because oligarchs are truly the invention of the most evil concept of humanity to destroy and exploit their own country and their own people, and the resources of the international community through the International Monetary Fund to become rich owners of many [unintelligible 00:33:35].

I believe we must use these apartments to show the people how the United States has been complicit for many years with these oligarchs. We know all these apartments who are owned by the Chinese Communist oligarchs, by the Middle Eastern oligarchs, by the weapons dealers of Israel, the South African Krugerrand anti-apartheid Boers, the Nigerian oil company because this is not limited to countries. Africans are also-- Latin Americans.

Brian Lehrer: Margarito, I'm going to cut it off there. I really appreciate you putting all that on the table. Please do call us again, but we're running out of time with the borough president. I want to get one last response from him. There is, in any of those cases, still a high bar for seizing people's private property no matter their backgrounds in other countries. What's the next step on this? This is what you've been wanting to be news for the last few days. What's the next step?

Borough President Mark Levine: When it comes to sanctioning, it's about placing people on the sanctions list who are complicit with the actions of a regime that is doing enormous harm, in this case, to the people of Ukraine. We know who those people are, they need to be added to the sanction. That then makes it possible for us to go after the assets that they have been putting in Manhattan as a safe harbor for far too long. We do need federal action to kick this off.

We have a broader problem that we've discussed with many of your callers of overseas buyers essentially laundering money in Manhattan real estate, which harms our city by distorting the real estate market. There are policies that we can and should put in place to curtail that as well. We have an urgent necessity to respond to this crisis, and we have an ongoing need to make Manhattan a place that respects the fact that people need to do the right thing in the world. That if you're a bad actor, we don't want you here. parking your money hidden out of sight.

Brian Lehrer: Manhattan Borough President Mark Levine, interesting conversation. Thank you very, very much.

Borough President Mark Levine: Thank you, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehre on WNYC. Much more to come.

 

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