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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. The Islamic holy month of Ramadan began at sundown on Sunday at a time when the killing of so many civilians in Gaza, as we discussed earlier in the program, is causing worldwide grief and horror, not just among Muslims but for any people. When it's your people dying at that kind of rate, you tend to feel it that much more personally and viscerally, I think it's fair to say, and when it's your own relatives. Here is a Palestinian American from San Francisco named Marwan Sbaita on NPR's Weekend Edition on Sunday on beginning the daily fasting ritual for Ramadan, but thinking about his relatives back in central Gaza.

Marwan Sbaita: They will not have a meal. It shutter me. When I eat, when it's time to break my fast, I'll be taking bites with a great deal of pain, sorrow, suffering, agony, and consumed with guilt.

Brian Lehrer: Marwan Sbaita on Weekend Edition. Another group for whom Ramadan is especially intense this year is Muslim asylum-seekers here in New York, largely from West Africa, who literally flew to Central or South America and made their way up. We talked on the show recently about those two furniture stores in Queens and the Bronx where scores of African asylum-seekers were sleeping. Our local news website, Gothamist, has a story called New York Mosques Are Struggling to Serve Migrants As Ramadan Begins. With us now, we welcome Ammar Abdul Rahman, deputy imam at the mosque called Masjid Al-Haram USA on East 205th Street in the Bronx.

That's the Bedford Park section at the end of the D train near Lehman College, Harris Park, around there. He also serves as outreach coordinator for the Asylum-seeker Shelter Program at the Interfaith Center of New York. Imam Ammar, thanks for joining us, and I hope Ramadan has started out okay for you.

Ammar Abdul Rahman: Thank you, Brian, for having me and yes, Alhamdulillah, Ramadan is going, It's the fourth day today and we are looking forward to the remaining days in peace and prosperity.

Brian Lehrer: Muslim listeners, we invite your first week of Ramadan calls. How are the devastation in Gaza or the needs of Muslim asylum-seekers in New York affecting how you feel as the holy month has begun? Any different from strong feelings many were obviously having before Ramadan or not? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Is there anything you're doing specific to the holiday regarding your feelings about Gaza or the plight of asylum-seekers here?

Or anything else you'd like to say about your observance generally, or the meaning of the holy month to you, or any questions for Imam Ammar Abdul Rahman, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Call or text. Imam, would you like to tell our listeners first a little bit about your mosque and the community you generally serve there?

Ammar Abdul Rahman: Absolutely. As you rightfully mentioned, I'm the deputy imam at Masjid Al-Haram here in the Bronx in 205th and Jerome Avenue. I also serve there as a director of outreach and community engagement and youth activity right in the Masjid as well. We've been working with multiculture, including Africans, some Southeast Asians, some Uzbek people are in our community as well. For the most part, it's been mostly West African from Ghana, Nigeria, and Togo.

We've been doing a lot of work, especially since the migrant crisis started, providing place for people to take shower in our mosque because we do have two showers there, or open the masjid during the day for folks to come and just rest during the cold seasons. Those are some of the things we've been doing since the crisis began. More so we also provide meals for some of the asylum-seekers. In this Ramadan, it's even become more a need for us to do more than what we used to do.

Brian Lehrer: The name of the mosque, Masjid Al-Haram, isn't that also the name of the mosque in Mecca that's considered the holiest side in the world for Muslims?

Ammar Abdul Rahman: Absolutely, it is, and that's why we add the USA, just to differentiate it, but it is. The reason behind is, so the person who initiated that mosque, actually, she used to go to Umrah and she'd go to Hajj a lot, and it was out of her desire to establish a mosque that provide, not only a place for people to pray but a place that feels like a community. Just like when you go to the mosque in Mecca and Medina, you find a community where people sit and chat and eat and hang out with families there. That's what she intended to establish at Masjid Al-Haram. That's the vision and that's what we are working towards.

Brian Lehrer: What is the name or the inspiration from the mosque in Mecca mean to you when you see it on your own mosque plus the letters "USA" in the Bronx?

Ammar Abdul Rahman: The name Masjid Al-Haram basically means the "sacred mosque". For me, it provides a more intimate and spiritual meaning to it when I see it added to USA, meaning that Islam is not only limited to Saudi Arabia or only the Arab worlds. It's right here in America, meaning Islam is just as intertwined in American fabric as any other religion or any other culture you could think about. Whenever I see that, it tells me that this is something that is welcoming, this is something that is inviting everyone across whatever part of the world you're from. This is Masjid Al-Haram right here in the Bronx.

Brian Lehrer: What's the size of your congregation usually and how many more people would you say are now part of the community with the recent asylum-seeker arrivals?

Ammar Abdul Rahman: Alhamdulillah. In the past before this migrant crisis, we receive about 300 to 500 guests, especially on Fridays. Now when you walk in the mosque, we start praying at 1:15, when you walk in on Friday at 1:30, there'll be no space for you to sit. People have to wait on the stairs, sometimes go downstairs where the cars are parked for them to pray. The numbers have increased significantly. I would say about 600 people to 700 every Friday when we pray. Majority of these are folks that are here seeking asylum. Usually they're working Uber deliveries, so they just stop by the mosque and park their scooters and ride upstairs to pray.

Brian Lehrer: The statistics that I've seen from city hall say around 14% of the asylum-seekers who came last year were from West Africa, mostly Senegal, Guinea, and Mauritania. Are the new members of your congregation largely from one of those?

Ammar Abdul Rahman: Yes, absolutely. Majority of them are from West African countries. We have a few more Chinese brothers who are there with us, but majority are from Senegal, Gambia, Ghana, Nigeria, mostly West Africa, yes.

Brian Lehrer: What's your understanding of why they put themselves through this? Flying to Latin America, making their way up here, as difficult as that is, being so uncertain about where their next bed or meal or paycheck or you said shower even, you're providing showers to people at the mosque might come from, and so many New Yorkers wishing they weren't here at all, and just considering them a problem. With all of that, what was worse than that at home?

Ammar Abdul Rahman: I think there's twofold to this. The first thing is I believe that the narrative is a little bit misconstrued when we say they fly because that gives like they have some level of luxury to get on a plane all the way to South America, but you listen to some of these folks, many of them, they actually trek. They go from one country to another all the way to North Africa. Some of them will make their way to Libya, and then find their way all the way to the Mediterranean. Others would go from, what's it called? From West Africa to East Africa. Somehow either they go on boat or they'd go with buses.

Some, yes, do fly to Guatemala or Mexico or Nicaragua, but that's not the majority. The majority are those who are actually literally trekking from one country to another. Now, you ask a good question about what make them leave their homes, their place of birth, where they could wake up in the morning without a debt. That's something that set Africa apart from most part of the world; we live according to what we are able to afford. They don't have to rent or take credit to do things, but what make people leave their homeland? Especially if what is here isn't as good as we make it sound. That tells you that whatever they're facing there is much worse.

That they're ready to embrace whatever they would have to deal with here rather than being over there. We're talking about political instability, we're talking about unrest, lack of security in some of these countries. We're talking, for example, Mauritania and Sudan, we know what's going on in Sudan, in Congo, in Nigeria. People are getting kidnapped every day just because the economy isn't stable. We have a lot of political instability. Recently in Senegal, thank God everything is been worked out, but they almost broke into a civil war because of some political instability. These are a few of the things that make people leave. I've met people who are graduates.

I met a guy who had a master's degree and he said, "I came here and now I do food deliveries. People look at me and think I'm some filthy guy because I stink." He said, "I came here because I want a better life for myself and my family." People have graduate degrees and they can't find decent jobs, and if they do find them, they're not paid properly. I know people who worked in Ghana, for example, and haven't been paid for three months. They are teachers. This is what make people leave. That's one side. The other side of it is what America propagate outside on social media, on TV, and on movies. It's, what's the word? It make people think that here is the land of milk and honey.

You come here, you could realize your dreams. Just come here and everything is easy for you to achieve. The reality of it is that it's not. I'm hesitant to say this, but I'll mention that our foreign policies of meddling in many of these countries based on our interests, be it our government interests or our corporate interests really affect the economies of those countries and make people want to leave because they don't see any way out when they stay. They see perpetual poverty, they see perpetual insecurity, and they want to come here because they know that no matter how much the struggle is in the beginning, eventually, they will be able to take care of themselves.

I'll tell you one story. I was at a respite center a while ago and I met a brother who is Mauritania and he was looking for someone who speaks Arabic because nobody spoke Arabic there. Alhamdulillah, my few Arabic that I could speak, I mentioned to him and we chat. He did a video call with his wife and his daughter back home in Mauritania. He's telling me, he said if I send them $10 here, $10 here is what you probably will pay for an Uber or just buy something cheap over here, that's enough to sustain them for a week. That hit me different because I have family in Ghana and it's the same.

You send someone $50 and that's enough for a month. When they're coming here, they're not coming to be given everything for free. They're coming to really work really hard to send that money to get a better life for their families.

Brian Lehrer: $50 here is like coffee and a bagel.

Ammar Abdul Rahman: Absolutely. I go to a restaurant and I spend more than $50, but people spend $50 the whole month.

Brian Lehrer: I want to turn to the situation in Gaza. For you personally, though, correct me if I'm wrong, I think you're not from an Arab background yourself, is it affecting you emotionally or anything about your observance of Ramadan or how you help lead your mosque?

Ammar Abdul Rahman: Absolutely, Brian. I think there's a very important question that you ask. A lot of people tend not to ask those questions lately, but the truth of the matter is, Muslims have been in pain and anger sometimes and despair for the past, I can't even begin to quantify. Since after October 7th, the level of pain has increased because now we're seeing it every single day on our phones, on our TVs. These are not dead news that we are being told this happened last week or last two weeks. This is actually something that is happening minutes and we are seeing it, and we are seeing the bodies in plastic bag because people can carry their loved ones' body in their hands.

We are seeing mothers holding their children and crying and asking the world, "Where is your conscience?" We see this and it breaks our heart. I'm going to tell you this, my wife struggled with this to the point where we had to really sit down and have more like a therapy session because it got so bad she couldn't eat. Because every time there's food on the table, the question is, we are here eating and our brothers are out there struggling. We feel so helpless because those, the powers that be, that are supposed to raise their voice to make a change are refusing to do so for their own political or corporate, whatever interests. We all agree, Brian, that human life is precious.

No matter where they are or what their color is, their lives matter, and we have to stand. We've seen what happened here in America when the war in Ukraine began. We've seen what happened when the war, or the genocide, if I may put, in Gaza started, and we've seen the difference in the response. Us as Muslims every day, that weighs heavy on our hearts. Now, this Ramadan, it's a complete different experience because on one hand, we are saddened and we are sorrowed, and we are angry. We are determined to make sure that our leaders, our elected officials hear our voices, but at the same time, we are hopeful. We are hopeful because this is the month of prayer.

This is the month of God changing destiny and we are resilient. We are resolute in our intention to pray day in and day out, while on the same time holding our elected officials accountable to ensure that there's a permanent ceasefire and a withdrawal of troops from Gaza and allowing the children to grow and experience this world before their life is wrongfully taken. You walk in the mosque-

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead. Sorry.

Ammar Abdul Rahman: -and you hear people. Two days ago, I led prayers at my mosque, and when I finished, a man walked up to me. This man is from Uzbek, Uzbekistan. He said to me, "Imam, I don't understand Arabic, but I just want to know, did you pray for Gaza?" For me, that hit different because his country is going through their own struggles. He has struggles in his own family maybe, but he's thinking about the people of Gaza. That tells you how this weighs on the hearts of the Muslims in New York City right now.

Brian Lehrer: Yusef in Elizabeth, you're on WNYC with Imam Ammar. Hello, Yusef.

Yusef: As-Salaam-Alaikum, Imam.

Ammar Abdul Rahman: Wa-Alaikum-Salaam, Yusef.

Yusef: Ramadan Mubarak.

Ammar Abdul Rahman: Ramadan Kareem.

Yusef: I'm calling because as far as the Gaza situation you just brought up. I'm a Puerto Rican Muslim. I celebrated my first couple of days of Ramadan in Puerto Rico with the Muslims. I'm back in New Jersey now. That first day of iftar, which is breaking fast, it was such a heavy moment on me as I was ready to make iftar and I make the dua for iftar, and I'm thinking about the people in Palestine who don't have iftar, who are not having an iftar. It's just so heart-wrenching when you see what's happening and how you feel so helpless that the 1,400 lives that were lost on October 7th matter so much more than the 30,000-plus lives.

It's just incomprehensible as human beings how anyone can justify that kind of retaliation. It's just way off balance. I want to wish you and your community a blessed Ramadan and success and inshallah, I'll get to come down one day and have iftar.

Ammar Abdul Rahman: Inshallah. We'll be happy to have you, brother. We actually have a session that we are going to start after Ramadan, which is for newly revert Muslims, and in our community, I've seen a lot of Hispanic reverts, so it'll be great. If I missed it or if I got it right that you mentioned that you're Spanish, it'll be nice to have you there just to interact with some of our brothers, especially in their mother language.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for your call, Yusef. Does any of your own anger get directed at Hamas? Do you feel that in addition, this is not to dismiss any of the incredible, I don't even have the words for the amount of excess that almost the whole world believes the Israeli military has engaged in, even if people believe that it was a just cause to try to get Hamas, the excessive from President Biden to many, many, many people all over the world who denounced the way that Israel is fighting this war, but do you also feel it at all toward Hamas for, A, staging October 7th, knowing that they were going to bring something like this on everybody's head, or B, continuing to embed among civilians, using them as human shields, again, drawing the inevitable response that kills so many of their own people?

Ammar Abdul Rahman: Brian, let me start by saying, I do have great admiration for you and your show. I've been listening to your show for, God knows, I think since 2016 I found out about you. I know you to be a very careful journalist who asks questions very carefully, so I'm going to respond to this in the best way that I could. I think when you use words like Hamas embedding themselves in civilians, you are borrowing some of the words of Netanyahu who uses that as an excuse to continuously bombard our brothers and sisters in Gaza, so I would really encourage that we do not use words that warmongers like Netanyahu used as justification.

Brian Lehrer: Do you think that that thing though is not a fact? The embedding?

Ammar Abdul Rahman: Again, when we use those words and those terms that Netanyahu used, we are justifying his actions. Now, the question of whether or not we Muslims or we the community or me personally agree with what Hamas did, to ask that question, for me is a no-brainer. When the United States goes into Iraq and bombard and kill those people, we don't question. When people talk about what is happening over there, we don't question, "Oh, what do you think about American government? What do you think about this government?" We look at who is the oppressor here and who is the oppressed. When we look at it, I'm not here or I'm not talking about Hamas.

I'm thinking about the Gazan people, the innocent civilians whose life are being taken, and that's where I want to focus my energy on, and not whether or not how I feel about Hamas. I don't feel anything about Hamas. I don't have a feeling for Hamas because I don't think about Hamas. As I said, I think about the people, the mother whose daughter or whose child has been blown to limbs. This morning I woke up to a feed that the Israeli government bombed a young boy who was on a bicycle claiming that they thought it was whatever they call, a warhead. What's it called? I forgot the name.

Brian Lehrer: I'm not sure.

Ammar Abdul Rahman: Yes. That to me, Brian is what hurts me. I'm going to go back to your question. In Islam, taking the life of a single soul is equated, this is how bad it is, is equated as taking the life of every human being. [Arabic language], anyone who kills an individual unjustly, it's like they've killed the whole humanity. That tenet in Islam, that principle in Islam, automatically, anybody who ask us that question, to me, it's like, you're not doing your due diligence to understand what Islam is truly about. When we have that answer, when that verse in the Quran is there, then we don't have to always-- Because then the burden is on us to continuously denouncing.

We've denounced Isis for all our lives, we've denounced Osama Bin Laden, and now we're asked to denounce Hamas, instead of focusing on the work and on the brutality that Netanyahu and the Israeli government is doing on the people of Gaza.

Brian Lehrer: To be clear, I carefully worded my question to not put you in the position of denouncing Hamas because I know how that gets used against Muslims, against Arabs like with Isis before, like with Al-Qaeda after 9/11, all of that stuff. I was more asking you a personal feeling question, which you have answered, and so you don't have to go through it again, about if you're angry at the way they're doing what they do, that contributes to what Israel does. Which, by the way, we spent the first 45 minutes of the show today on ways to get Netanyahu to stop doing what he's doing, but give us a last word, and then we're out of time.

Ammar Abdul Rahman: I just want to go back to my anger. I like that you mentioned that. My anger goes way beyond October 7th. My anger goes to the time where Palestine was deemed as a land without a people, but a people without a land. That is where the problem began, but we're not going to go there because we don't have enough time to go through history. I just wanted to mention that at ICNYU, we are really working hard to call on Senator Schumer. I'm glad to hear earlier on that he's called for a change in government in Israel.

I'm glad to hear that, but we are calling on the senator and President Biden, especially for this Ramadan, to designate temporary protective status for the people of Guinea, Mauritania, and Senegal. That will go a long way to alleviate some of the burdens that are on our communities and on our cities. Here at ICNYU, we started a food drive where we are helping a lot of the mosques that are feeding the migrants without any support. If any of your listeners are willing to donate, you could reach out to me @ammarfulani 12-- Actually, I'll send my information, and if you guys could share it.

Brian Lehrer: Sure.

Ammar Abdul Rahman: Also, you could reach out to ICNYU, the Interfaith Center of New York, and ask how you can support. Any amount would help because yesterday, Brian, we went to Masjid Futa in the Bronx, and we had 100 meals to present to them. We were met with almost 600 guests who were asylum seekers ready to break their fast. It was really heartbreaking to see those folks not get enough food. If anyone wants to support, please do so by visiting the Interfaith Center of New York and ask how you could help.

Thank you so much for creating this space, Brian, and I really look forward to many more of this conversation in the future because there's much more to say about both the situation in Gaza and as well as what's going on with our asylum seeker brothers in this city.

Brian Lehrer: I look forward too. You're always welcome here. Ammar Abdul Rahman, deputy imam at the mosque called Masjid Al-Haram USA on East 205th Street in the Bronx at Jerome Avenue. He's also an outreach coordinator for the Asylum Seeker Shelter Program at the Interfaith Center of New York. A blessed Ramadan to you.

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