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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, and for our lived experience call-in that we usually do at the end of the show, I want to acknowledge that it's been a rough weekend for some people in our area. Of course, it's always a rough weekend in some ways for people, but yesterday was Trans Day of Remembrance, if you didn't know. An annual observance to honor the trans people whose lives have been lost due to anti-trans violence, and tragically on Sunday of all days, many of our listeners, trans and everyone else, awoke to the news of the shooting at Club Q in Colorado Springs, where five people were murdered and at least 25 were injured, according to the latest numbers from NPR.

"Since 2002, Club Q has been a safe haven for the LGBTQ community in an area where it hasn't always been easy," that's a quote from Colorado governor Jared Polis, who happens to be a gay man himself, and on Saturday night in New York City's Hell's Kitchen, even right here in Hell's Kitchen, an unknown individual hurled a brick at the windows of a gay bar called VERS, V-E-R-S, for the third time in one week. Video footage of the unknown individual who can be seen approaching the bar's window has been circulating on social media.

Bar Owner David DeParolesa told Gothamist that the NYPD response to the attacks has been "nonchalant." Now, while Governor Kathy Hochul has pledged to increase police presence with the goal of protecting the LGBTQ community. DeParolesa told Gothamist that his experience has shown him that LGBTQ people must be self-reliant when it comes to protecting themselves. He told Gothamist, "It's typical that we as gay people who have spaces we've created have to protect ourselves. I'm not defeatist. In fact, I'm more emboldened than ever," he said.

Trans people, any LGBTQ people call in, the phones are yours, in addition to the Jewish people who are also about to invite because of another incident, and just talk about how you're feeling if you would like to, or what you would like to see done after Club Q and Hell's Kitchen. 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692. One of the questions there is, do you want more police? It's not always easy between police and gay bars, and of course, we can go back to Stonewall, that seminal event, but that was a long time ago. That was 1969, but do you want more police protecting LGBTQ spots, or do you want police to stay as far away from you as possible? 212-433-9692.

Meanwhile on Saturday morning, if you haven't heard this yet, two men were arrested at Penn Station because of alleged online threats they made to a Manhattan synagogue. The two men in their early twenties were found with a firearm, ammunition, a military-style knife, a bulletproof vest, a swastika arm patch, a ski mask, and other things in their possession, according to reports. One of the men who's from Suffolk County is being held without bail, and the other who's from Manhattan is being allowed to post bail, either $150,000 cash or a $300,000 bond according to reporting by CNN.

This, of course, follows an extreme rise in antisemitic rhetoric and antisemitic hate crimes in the past few years, weeks and months. In fact, maybe you remember just recently a New Jersey man was arrested earlier this month for alleged plans to attack a synagogue shortly after federal authorities issued a warning to synagogues across New Jersey. Jewish listeners call in with how you feel. Do you want more police presence around synagogues? Kathy Hochul said she's ramping up police presence for that too in New York State. 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692.

If you're a member of the gay community, LGBTQ community, if you're a member of the Jewish community, with these kinds of threats, and of course, in the case of Colorado Spring, so much more than a threat taking place. 212-433-WNYC. You can just express your sympathies. You can say what you want at a policy level. You can blame people, you can ask a question because with me now is Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum, who serves as spiritual leader of Congregation Beit Simchat Torah here in New York, which is also known as CBST.

Since its founding in 1973, CBST has been a place of worship for LGBTQ Jews and allies. Rabbi Kleinbaum, welcome back to WNYC. I certainly wish it was under happier circumstances.

Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum: Thanks so much, Brian, for having me. I'm happy to be here and I agree with you. I wish there were other circumstances.

Brian Lehrer: As the rabbi of an LGBTQ-oriented synagogue, I'm sure antisemitic and anti-LGBTQ threats are not lost on you at all. I don't even know what question to ask, so I'll just ask, how are you feeling and what are you thinking on this particular Monday morning in our lives?

Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum: Well, there's a big mixture of feelings, and you're absolutely right. CBST, and me individually as a lesbian rabbi and a Jew, and my community who is at the intersection of LGBTQ and Jewish identities at the very nexus of those identities. We feel a lot of hate in the world, absolutely, but it's not the only thing that we feel, and the people who were arrested with those weapons were very close to CBST. They were at Penn Station and CBST is very close to Penn Station.

These are very real and concrete issues. I think the first thing is to say the world that we're living in is a terrifying place, and it's not only because we are targeted that it's terrifying, but I think we have to look at this larger pattern that's happening worldwide of authoritarians who are using anti-LGBT rhetoric and antisemitic tropes combined as part of their political rise to power. It's happening here in the United States with the United States little texture to it, but it's true in Hungary, Poland, and around the world.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take our first phone call. Mary in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Mary.

Mary: Good morning, Brian. Nice to talk to you. I just want to recount to you very briefly that yesterday as a member of a Catholic congregation, I, and many of the other congregants, as well as the pastor, walked across the street to the Jewish synagogue. These two congregations have been neighbors for decades and decades. We went for a simple little joint prayer service of Thanksgiving because of course it's that time of the year, and it was just delightful.

The reason I went, and indeed the point I wish to make right now is because I think there should be so much more visible support by non-Jewish people of Jewish people or culture or religion or however one wishes to define it, and I'm not talking about flag waving necessarily. I'm talking about the simple stuff like going across the street to an interfaith prayer service or supporting certain activities that may be occurring in one's community.

Just an ongoing show of support to our friends and neighbors and let the crazies out there see what we're doing and maybe they will even get over their fear of the other, as it were, and let up a bit. The antisemitism, it's just so horrifying. I was a child during World War II. One might have thought this disease would've been cured or killed off by now. Clearly, it isn't.

Brian Lehrer: Mary, thank you very much, and thank you for describing your reaching out across faith lines. That's wonderful. Thank you. Nathan in Westport. You're on WNYC. Hi, Nathan.

Nathan: Long time, first time. Yes, I'm a Jew, been to many synagogues, traveled around the world. I like to visit synagogues and whatnot when I can, and I think a lot of people aren't aware that they're already relative to churches, we're already like fortresses. I've never been to a place some sort of security guard, whereas churches you can usually just wander in and that's great. Yes, I'll go to the church and see the architecture and whatever, but synagogues might not even let you in sometimes you have to do background checks, bring your ID, all sorts of stuff like that.

My whole life, I went to a Jewish state school growing up and we had security guards my girlfriend teaches at a Jewish state school, they have security guards. It's already night and day. I would say, probably you have to remain vigilant, have more security. That said, there are always bad cops out there. Make sure they're there for the right reasons, whether it's the synagogues or the gay community.

Brian Lehrer: Nathan, thank you very much. Rabbi Kleinbaum, for you as a member of both the Jewish community and LGBTQ community and leader in both, I wonder if you experience any kind of dissonance when you hear Governor Hochul calling for ramped-up police presence to protect both synagogues and gay bars because I think in this country, at least they-- I mean, I'm not talking about going back to World War II era or something like that.

In recent times as Nathan in Westport describes there, many American Jews may feel protected by a stronger police presence. Many LGBTQ Americans may not. How do you deal with that dissonance and what response you would like to see to synagogues and gay bars and other spots?

Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum: I think you bring up a very important point, Brian. I want to even make it more strongly that there are many in our Jewish community who are Jews of color, who have various levels of anxiety about a police presence. I think it has to be handled sensitively and thoughtfully, and I think security have to be well-trained and we have to take responsibility for it.

That's a very sensitive point in synagogue settings, and we have to do the work with anybody who works at a synagogue setting to be really conscious and sensitive to it. The irony is not lost on any of us. We certainly hope for a day where we could look at security with a sense of the great distance that many have traveled, and we want to improve it even more. Maybe this is an opportunity to do that kind of training.

I have to say I'm very grateful to Governor Hochul's general position. When she was Lieutenant Governor, soon as the Pittsburgh murders happened, I got a text from her as Lieutenant Governor. As the Rabbi at CBST, she reached out to me immediately. We had an event around that. She showed up to it, sat very respectfully, participated as we asked her to. I think she has been a real friend to the LGBTQ community and to the Jewish community as well.

As a rabbi here in New York, I'm very grateful to her. I just want to add that we have to focus on some of the incitement language that's coming out of our political leadership in this country, we can't just talk about it on our local level although we must, but the level of incitement that's being used by leadership in the Republican Party is unconscionable.

History will speak to this, I am sure, but we have to call it out.

We know in our tradition as Jews, there's a very strong connection between words and violence. In the Book of Exodus, it begins with describing what happens. How do the Egyptians enslave the Jewish people? It doesn't start with the act of enslaving the Jewish people. It starts with propaganda and rhetoric and violent words, so that in Kristallnacht, which was the moment in 1938, that the Nazi Germany moved from rhetoric against Jews to violence against Jews.

Words matter. What's coming out of the words, the mouths of the Republican leadership in this country is horrifying. It's adding to this sense of anxiety and uncertainty, and it only feeds those who are ready to attack. We see the numbers rising drastically. I want to say that personally, I am not afraid. My message to my congregation and to those of your listeners is that the most important thing is showing up.

Exactly as one of your callers said, we have to show up for each other when somebody else feels threatened or vulnerable. We have to show up ourselves. We cannot let these terrorists, and they are terrorists, both those who are elected officials in this country as well as those who are carrying the guns. We must continue to fight this gun culture in this country.

Brian Lehrer: Let's go back to our phones and hear some more people's experiences and feelings. Bobby, in South Carolina, you're on WNYC. Hi, Bobby.

Bobby: Hi. I was calling to say that I think it's appalling that we would allow bail for one of the terrorists. I just think that's just absolutely ridiculous. On top of that, I have another point of view with police at gay clubs. I grew up in Connecticut. My friend, Robert Bartolomeo owned Gotham City, one of the largest gay clubs for a good decade right there by Yale University. All the clubs down there had to have police outside the front door Thursdays, Fridays, and Saturdays. I'll tell you, it did wonders for the gay community in New Haven and Connecticut in my opinion because it allowed the police to get paid extra money, which they appreciate, and it allowed them to meet us.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting.

Bobby: They had cabaret shows at this one. The police had exposure to our community, and it worked out well. They weren't there to monitor us. They were there to protect us, and they honored that. I don't think it would be a bad thing. Another example of that is Minneapolis. Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, there's a huge police presence. I am gay male. There is a huge police presence on First Ave in Hennepin Avenue, which again, one of the largest, probably the largest gay club in Minnesota, which is The Saloon, the police are outside all the time. They're not there to harass anybody. I think it's done wonders there too.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting stories, Bobby from multiple cities. Thank you very much. I want to go on to Chris--

Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum: Brian, I do think it's a matter of training. I'm not against police by any means. I think it's a matter of training and that makes it a successful relationship if the communities are engaged with the police so that there's proper kinds of training.

Brian Lehrer: It also might matter what kind of LGBTQ community at this point, where for example it may be the worst for trans people in their relationships with police, where it's 50/50, whether they're going to protect me or whether they're going to oppress me. Christopher in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Christopher. We've got about a minute left.

Christopher: Hello. I'm a doctor and I work once a week in Brooklyn. On July 15th, I was coming back from Brooklyn. Significant amount of my patients, I'm a surgeon, are trans patients, I took the subway and I was gay bashed by two men on the subway. They threw my briefcase and my bag off the subway and then beat me up and tried to throw me off.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, my goodness.

Christopher: I'm a big guy. I happened to be wearing pink shorts, which triggered them.

Brian Lehrer: Because we're running out of time, let me just ask you real quick, did you get the police involved? Were you ambivalent about getting the police involved?

Christopher: I got the police involved. They initially didn't want to arrest the man, and they said it was just harassment. I called for a police supervisor and I forced them to arrest him. The district attorney was saying it's a misdemeanor. They weren't going to put it as a hate crime, but he called me faggot hundreds of times.

Brian Lehrer: I'm going to leave it there, Christopher.

Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum: Horrible.

Brian Lehrer: Horrible. Rabbi Kleinbaum, I'm going to give you the last word. What can you say at a time like this, after a call like that, after what happened in Colorado Springs, after the threat allegedly by those guys arrested at Penn Station to people who maybe don't have a direct connection, but maybe really shaken by these events and stories? We have 15 seconds.

Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum: It's horrifying. Don't isolate. Join communities, come out and be with people. There's risk in everything, but there's a greater risk losing our sense of ourself. I believe in increasing the light in the universe and not allowing the hatred to overwhelm us. [crosstalk] Join communities, come out and be in community.

Brian Lehrer: Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum, community is Congregation Beit Simchat Torah, where she is the Rabbi and spiritual leader. Thank you so much.

Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum: Thank you, Brian.

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