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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. There may be big news out of Albany on bail reform as the governor and state legislature crashed toward the deadline tomorrow night for an on-time New York State budget for the fiscal year that begins on Saturday. If a scoop from POLITICO New York is accurate assembly Speaker Carl Heastie, a staunch defender of the bail reform law that was passed in 2019, is now floating a compromise that could be part of a larger budget deal.

POLITICO reports that the assembly draft language, according to their source, would remove the "least restrictive means standard" that judges are supposed to consider when deciding how to make sure someone shows up to their next court date. Assembly representatives reiterated that judges should consider factors already approved in state law when deciding if a person qualifies to be held on bail. The final decision about what conditions to set for a person's return to court would be up to the judge's individual analysis. That would be a compromise and we'll talk about that now.

Also, another big change that the budget could bring, a significant increase in New York's minimum wage. We'll start there with the lead sponsor of the minimum wage bill, Democratic State Senator Jessica Ramos of Queens. Her district covers Jackson Heights and Corona, mostly roughly from the Grand Central down to the [unintelligible 00:01:35] North-South, roughly from Citi Field and Flushing Meadows–Corona Park to the BQE, from east to west. Senator, we always appreciate when you come on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Senator Jessica Ramos: Hey, Brian. Good morning. Oh, it's always great to be back. Thanks for inviting me.

Brian Lehrer: Tell us about your minimum wage bill.

Senator Jessica Ramos: Well, I have a proposal to raise the minimum wage in New York State to $21.25 by the year 2026, at which point we propose that we should index it to inflation, meaning that as the cost of living increases in New York State, so should the minimum wage, ensuring that workers don't fall behind.

Brian Lehrer: It wasn't that long ago that the big thing was the fight for $15, to get a $15 minimum wage. That's still the fight in much of the country with the federal minimum wage shamefully still stuck at $7.25, but New York has a $15 minimum wage. You're arguing it needs to be pushed to $21.25?

Senator Jessica Ramos: Brian, I think it's really important that we note that Upstate New York is still not yet at $15 an hour. That has hurt workers tremendously. Actually, today in [unintelligible 00:02:52] there's an op-ed by a janitor that cleans the Capitol. He talks about how he's been working there for 10 years and hasn't been making more than $14.25. The fact is that actually 2019 when we won the $15 was a lifetime ago, I think it feels like, especially considering the pandemic years.

The average worker's purchasing power has greatly diminished, especially when you account for inflation. Actually, if you're making $15 right now, no you're not, you're actually making probably around $12.75 an hour.

Brian Lehrer: Well, you know what businesses are saying, businesses and their advocates, that, "We'll put some small businesses, just the kinds you want to encourage in your district and Queens and everywhere over the brink into bankruptcy, which will also eliminate jobs, while it's only the chain stores and other big businesses that will be able to absorb the $21.25 an hour." What's your response to that?

Senator Jessica Ramos: Well, some businesses disagree with us. Many also do agree with us. We've actually been able to count on a very powerful coalition of businesses who understand that workers are customers too. I have to say, everybody knows Jackson Heights. My hometown is well-known for our food. We have lots of restaurants, and a lot of them have had trouble getting customers because people just don't have disposable income or don't have the ability to take their family out for dinner once a week.

This is about pumping more money into our communities precisely at a time when big businesses have seen corporate profits that have been the highest in the past, I think, 70 years. The money is being hoarded there and the workers, who are actually making the profit possible, haven't been able to enjoy the stability that every single New Yorker deserves, and that's why we're proposing a raise to the wage. I think everybody's been hurting in every corner of the state and putting more money in people's pockets is actually the best way to boost our economy and fight the recession that we're told is imminent.

Brian Lehrer: This would go up gradually over a few years, not all at once. It would be different for New York City or maybe for downstate, you tell me, than further upstate?

Senator Jessica Ramos: That's right, Brian. It would be different for the city, Long Island, and then upstate. It is a path towards $21.25 by the year 2026. By the way, this is not a random number. We worked with economists who helped us calculate exactly how much the minimum wage would be had we pegged the minimum wage to inflation back when we won those $15 as the minimum wage. That's exactly what we're accounting for.

I have to tell you, I actually have constituents, people on social media who tell me all the time that $21.25 isn't enough, that they would want to see higher. Obviously, we want to make sure that we're putting forth a feasible proposal that's grounded in the economic reality of all of the different factors. Not only the purchasing power that's needed from customers, from workers, but also the realities that our businesses are going through, particularly our smallest businesses. That's why we count on folks who own bookstores, folks who own restaurants, and other small businesses who understand that paying their workers a living wage actually helps an entire community.

Brian Lehrer: Did you say this would also peg the minimum wage to inflation? I think this should be in the Constitution, that the minimum wage is pegged to inflation. The federal minimum wage-

Senator Jessica Ramos: Preach, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: -$7.25 hasn't gone up since 2009-

Senator Jessica Ramos: Yes, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: -2009, and we know what inflation has done since then. We don't have that in New York State either today, right?

Senator Jessica Ramos: No, we don't. Actually, this is common ground between our proposal and the governor's proposal in the executive budget. She proposed that we pegged the minimum wage to inflation, unfortunately, at the $15 we're at now. That's just not enough. I'm a big believer that the minimum wage needs to cover the bare minimum because otherwise, workers will just have to then qualify for many benefits that end up being subsidies and corporate socialism. That's coming out of our taxpayer dollars. It's actually really important that workers are able to see the value of their work and be compensated justly so they can provide for their families.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, your thoughts or question's welcome about a $21.25 New York minimum wage, or the bail reform compromise that POLITICO reports may be in the works, or anything else in the budget talks, housing, mental health, charter schools, name your issue, as the new fiscal year when all this is supposed to take effect begins on Saturday. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 for State Senator Jessica Ramos of Queens.

With us briefly now is someone the state legislature set up for us to tell us her personal story. Her name is Kim, and she's a personal care aide, a home health aide in the Bronx, currently making $17 an hour. She's involved in the campaign for $21.25. Kim, thanks a lot for some time this morning. Welcome to WNYC.

Kim: Thank you, Brian. Glad to be here.

Brian Lehrer: Would you describe the nature of your work first as a home health aide, personal care aide?

Kim: As a home health aide, I take care of clients who have personal needs, some have both home health aide, we do little other chores for them because they may not have somebody living with them. You take care of them personally. That is first and foremost, and then you do the laundry, the little grocery shopping and so forth, put them to doctor's appointments and all of that. The lifting and [unintelligible 00:09:34] from the bed to the wheelchair and back to the bed. Some can do a little for themselves, but they still need help.

Brian Lehrer: It's such intimate work and such hard work. What would be the difference for you in terms of what you can and can't afford between $17 an hour, what you make now, and the $21.25 in the law?

Kim: Well, it will do a lot for us. It will help us a little, but then we need more than that. We are trained skilled workers. We were trained to do this job. We are not recognized as trained skilled workers, they just see us like a companion to whoever your client is. That's not fair because we have so much to do for them. They depend on us. We are their ears, eyes, that relates everything to them, and as such, we should be treated and we should be getting more than the minimum wage.

Senator Jessica Ramos: That's right.

Kim: Them wanting to keep us at the minimum wage level, you have to go through this training, and then every year, you have to go demonstrate that you still have your skills and you're fit enough. You got to eat healthy, you got to keep your doctor's appointments, and many times that's been sacrifice.

Brian Lehrer: What's the training like? People might be curious to hear that. You said people think you're just a companion. There is actually another field called companion care. You can hire people just to be a companion, but what's the training to be an actual home health aide like?

Kim: You go through at least a six weeks training and you learn the basic. When you get there, you learn about the clients. You got to be a very observant person. You observe their reaction to the medication. You go in one morning, they may not be feeling well, but they're scared to talk because in some homes there's abuse, and they don't know who to relate to. They're scared. They would look at you with their eyes wide open. You will ask questions, "How are you feeling today? What happened? Did you have dinner?" and they would react by shaking their head or "No," if family members are around because they don't want everybody to know.

They sit down and they bear it, but then in a quiet moment, they relate to you what they're going through. You try to seek help for them by getting in touch with the social worker, the nurse, and say, "Hey, something is going on here. You guys send somebody. He'll do a random visit and learn more." In that way, we help them in getting things straightened out for them. It's a lot.

Brian Lehrer: Plus the physical part, you have to be able to lift the person, you were describing before, from the bed to the wheelchair, for example. I know that there are ways to do that safely for you as a lifter and safely for the person who's being lifted because they're physically fragile. Do you get trained on that?

Kim: Yes, we are. We got to do that. Every year, we have, we call it competency, where we go in and demonstrate our skills, that we still have it, in order to keep our license. You got to go in, you got to pass this written questions, oral questions, and then you demonstrate. [unintelligible 00:13:11] how you lift the bed back and everything. There are modern equipment now that they bring in to assist you, especially for overweight people. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Would this raise for you be borne by the state because your clients tend to be on Medicaid?

Kim: Yes. Most of them are on Medicaid, some have the private insurance, those who can afford, but yes, mainly from that. We don't have much cases now because I don't know what's going on with the Medicaid, how they are allotting the money and all of that. For some people, the hours are reduced for care. You might get four hours three times per week, but these people need everyday assistance.

Currently, I'm doing five hours a day five days per week, and there's so much I have to do for my clients, but I try my best to meet every task scheduled for that day. Many times we log out and we still stay and finish what we got to do, especially if they're at a age way in their 90s. You got to feed them. You can't just put the food there and leave them because they may choke on it. You got to sit, you got to feed them- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Yes, depending on the person. I'm just curious [crosstalk] before you go Kim-- Senator, hang on one second. Kim, have you had direct contact with lawmakers, including any who may not be convinced to hear your case?

Kim: Yes. The ones that I spoke with see my story and they keep checking in and they're following up. They say their doing the best for us and we must not give up the fight because they have our backs, but we got to keep the fight up to them that they can push and say, "Look, this is a necessity, this is an essential job because most of us, if we live long, we'll get to that point where we need help. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Senator Ramos, before I let Kim go, were you trying to get in with her?

Senator Jessica Ramos: Kim and I have actually known each other for a few years now. We've been in the trenches together. I just wanted to point out that this is clearly not minimum-wage work, and some childcare workers earn minimum wage too. There is an angle here about the feminization of poverty, and it's important to note that home care workers like Kim last year in the budget actually won a $3 raise that was now taken away from them.

We actually want home care attendants to make 150% of the minimum wage in New York State. These are jobs that are done mostly by women, mostly by women of color, have seen as less than when actually we depend on them in our later years and in vulnerable situations. This, I think, is a reckoning that we're having with this budget, and really looking at how we value work. If we're smart, we can actually create a path towards a caring economy that will strengthen our communities and ensure people are taken care of.

Brian Lehrer: Kim, thank you for joining us today. Good luck.

Kim: Thank you too, Brian. Thanks.

Senator Jessica Ramos: Good to hear you, Kim.

Brian Lehrer: Senator, did you just say that you won a minimum wage increase for home health care workers in last year's budget but it somehow got taken away?

Senator Jessica Ramos: That's right. Well, I didn't win it, the home care attendants did. They have been adamant about being heard at the Capitol building, and yes, last year in the budget, they won a $3 raise that was taken away in the executive proposal for this year's budget. This is part of their fight, ensuring that there is fair pay for home care attendants. There's all sorts of stuff going on with Medicaid too.

Brian Lehrer: Does that mean Governor Hochul is proposing to reduce their wages?

Senator Jessica Ramos: That is correct. That was the proposal in the executive budget.

Brian Lehrer: Currently with State Senator Jessica Ramos of Queens as we're talking primarily about her minimum wage increase proposal. We're going to get to a couple of other moving parts in these last minute budget negotiations that are taking place before the fiscal year begins for New York State on Saturday. They may be late, but most years they come in on time. It could be a long Friday night in Albany tomorrow night. 212-433-WNYC is our phone number.

Before we get to bail reform and a couple of other things and take some phone calls, Senator, just to finish the point on this, it sounds like you're proposing different minimum wages for different kinds of work and singling out home health care workers and childcare workers and others in the care economy. Of course, I hear what you're saying, our listeners hear what you're saying about the feminization of poverty and what gets valued in the marketplace, so to what degree is this part of your proposal, different minimum wages for different kinds of work?

Senator Jessica Ramos: I only am proposing one minimum wage across the state. What home care attendants do is paid for a little bit differently because there is a Medicaid formula for reimbursement that is factored in. There is a separate bill that is carried by State Senator Rachel May that outlines what that fair pay looks like, and shout out to her because she's really been championing this particular workforce. We've been working closely together for the past few years now to ensure that they receive justice too, but my Raise the Wage Act, which I want to see in the final budget, is just one proposal for a minimum wage of $21.25 by 2026 for the entire state.

Brian Lehrer: Devon in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hi, Devon.

Devon: That's me?

Brian Lehrer: That's you. You know what? Turn your radio off because you're hearing it come back on 10-second delay there.

Devon: I wanted to say one thing, but I just brought up another topic. I didn't want to add insult to injury, but I'm a person that was taking care of a person. She broke her leg, she went into the hospital, and when she came out, she needed the home care and they allowed me to be her home care assistant. They're paying me $18 an hour. Now, this is insult to injury. I wan't training to learn how to move in and out of the bed, but this lady has got all the training and has been doing this for so long and she's making $17, less than $18 an hour. This is insult to injury. What are they doing? How are they doing this so backwards? Then my other thing was, doing this as a tiered system, saying that the [unintelligible 00:20:46]

Brian Lehrer: That's right. You want to talk about smaller businesses?

Devon: Right. Smaller businesses are coming in. I wanted to say that, since they're doing this as a tiered system and they're allowing the [unintelligible 00:21:04] to come in later, can't they do the same thing with the smaller businesses and allow smaller businesses to come in later?

Brian Lehrer: I get your point. Since they would be on the more gradual glide path to a higher minimum wage upstate, can't they do the same thing with small businesses as opposed to big businesses? That's your point, right, Devon?

Devon: Right. Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Call us again. I appreciate you being a first-time caller. Senator Ramos, what about that? Something that's tiered for smaller businesses on the minimum wage if they're close to the edge.

Senator Jessica Ramos: Look, I don't believe in creating a second class of workers. I don't believe in tiered wages. I think that the minimum wage should cover the bare minimum. I've heard a lot of trite talking points that we always hear every time this discussion is had, "Oh, raising the minimum wage is going to shut down businesses." Actually, in the past, when we did $15, what we saw was job growth, what we saw was economic growth because, again, workers are customers. Putting money in people's pockets will ensure that they are actually spending them at these very same small businesses in their communities. It's a smart policy to have one standard for the state moving forward.

Brian Lehrer: Here's John in Manhattan, one of those small business owners, I think. Hi, John, you're on WNYC with Senator Ramos.

John: Yes, hi there. I wanted to say I've been a small business owner in Manhattan for 46 years now and every time-- like this last increase was substantial, but this one has simply crushed me. I have a small children's business, children's shop. There are times when I don't have a customer walk in for a few hours, and if they buy something, it barely will cover the hourly minimum wage that this proposal is proposing. It's unreasonable to have a standard all the way across.

I'm trying to compete with Target. If anyone who knows the city knows that small children's businesses are disappearing left and right. The reason being that just it's not feasible to keep having all these increases, let alone rent increases and tax increases. It's just out of whack.

Brian Lehrer: Senator, talk to John.

John: [unintelligible 00:23:40]

Senator Jessica Ramos: I really appreciate that comment because I do think that it's unfair that small businesses end up having to compete with the likes of Target and Walmart and Amazon. It speaks to other factors and a business environment that is not conducive to helping small businesses. What we can't do is then turn around and say that it's okay to codify poverty wages and that somehow the workers aren't going to be able to keep a roof over their heads. That's why we have to have a minimum wage because we can't trust many businesses to actually do what's right by their workers.

I would love to help figure out how it is that we can get you more customers. I would imagine that people need to have money to be able to spend at your store. This is our way of proposing that people have more money in your community so that they can stop by your shop. I've also been very critical of the Amazons, and especially the Walmarts and the Targets of the world. All of these companies, unfortunately, have completely changed the paradigm of our entrepreneurial environment and has made it very hard for small businesses, and it's why I have been very supportive of actually addressing these monopolies and duopolies.

Brian Lehrer: I think John is not satisfied, but there's that exchange. One more call. Luke in Crown Heights has a specific question. Luke, you're on WNYC. Hi.

Luke: Hi. I have to just take a moment and say I'm a huge fan. Brian, you are a treasure to this city. Thank you for the work that you do. Also, thank you for the work that you're doing, Senator Ramos. This is an exciting prospect. I just have a question about tipped workers. Tipped workers receive a different minimum wage and are supposed to be subsidized by tips. I'm just curious what the ramifications are for that system under this new proposal.

Brian Lehrer: Thanks, Luke. Senator.

Senator Jessica Ramos: Yes. First of all, it's important to know the historical fact that tipped wage comes from the Jim Crow era, where we had created a second tier of workers thinking that they somehow would be paid a full wage with tips, knowing full well that in many places that's not necessarily the case. There is a proposal in the state that I believe is being carried by Senator Jackson. It's a bill that appeared not that long ago, but because it is not wages that are paid by the state, it doesn't go in the state budget. There is a very robust campaign happening to do away with the tipped wage in hospitality that I believe should be passed this year. Hopefully, before the end of session.

The fact is that these workers, many of these workers aren't treated very well. Many of them actually are victims of wage theft. Wage theft can be very rampant in the hospitality industry like the construction industry. In New York State, we've already done away with the tipped wage for other workforces, like nail salon workers, like carwash workers. Actually, I was the one who passed that bill to do away with that tipped wage. I'm hoping that we address this, but I don't see it done in the budget since it's not something that accounts for the fiscal responsibility of the state.

Brian Lehrer: Before you go, let me touch on a couple of other things that POLITICO dispatch on bail reform. Let's see if you can confirm it. Again, in brief, it says the assembly draft language, according to POLITICO source, would remove the least restrictive means standard that judges are supposed to consider now. It says the final decision about what conditions to set for a person's return to court would be up to the judge's individual analysis. Can you confirm that that is now in play?

Senator Jessica Ramos: Brian, I can't confirm because I'm a Senator and I'm not really privy to assembly discussions, of course. I would say that I would be very disappointed if that were the case because I've actually been working very closely with Assemblywoman Latrice Walker, who's been our champion of bail reform, to say that all of us are, of course, concerned about our public safety. Actually, I have a bill that I'm proposing called Treatment Not Jails. It's to expand diversion courts so that people can access services pretrial, so that they don't have to plead guilty before they actually receive services.

That also means that we have to build the proper mental health facilities so that people have a place to go. We know that previous governors have defunded mental health facilities and the number of psychiatric beds has greatly declined over the past few years. That's a trend that we need to reverse desperately. No one wants people who are prone to hurting others or themselves roaming around in the streets. What we want is appropriate facilities for them to seek the care that they deserve. Judges right now already have plenty of discretion to do what they will.

I actually asked our acting Chief Judge during the last budget hearing precisely about what the intention was to expand diversion courts given that they are so successful. This, unfortunately, we only see in Brooklyn County and in Ontario County, which is much more conservative, and should be expanded to every corner of the state. I think that there are actual real solutions that are rooted in science that we should be looking at to keep our streets safe instead of the fear-mongering headlines that we see in some rags that call themselves newspapers.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. It's a very interesting debate related to your Treatment Not Jails bill. To be clear on it, because I think this is worth a minute for our listeners, as you were saying, it would remove the need to enter a guilty plea before you're accepted into a treatment program through the court. You could be charged, but not convicted or not plead guilty before you could be--

Senator Jessica Ramos: Yes. Instead of being thrown in a dungeon like Rikers Island, maybe be sent to an actual facility that is conducive to helping you heal and withstand trial and go through the process.

Brian Lehrer: On the judicial discretion on other things, I saw a clip from a state legislative hearing. I don't know if you were at this particular one, but an NYPD official testified that the big increase in shoplifting, which also he said threatens to become violent in some cases within the stores if it doesn't go well, is largely the result of those recidivists who shoplift without fearing immediate jail time. Judges, in this person's opinion, should have that discretion. Why do you disagree on that? Then we're out of time.

Senator Jessica Ramos: Well, I think judges do have that discretion. I think that the way the bail reform laws are set right now allows them to make decisions that they're not necessarily making. Also, I think that my Raise the Wage Act plays a factor here. Folks who are stealing lotions and toothpaste from pharmacies like Duane Reade or whatever to resell on the street are obviously in survival mode. They're in fight or flight. They are trying to figure out how to ends meet in an economy that isn't working for them.

Actually, raising the minimum wage can help people keep a roof over their heads and therefore be safe from making those bad decisions. What we need to do is help people get out of that survival mode where they're making the worst possible decisions and hopefully have access to the healthcare that they need. These are the things that actually keep us safe.

Brian Lehrer: State Senator Jessica Ramos of Queens, we'll see how this all turns out. Maybe Friday night, Saturday morning, or maybe it's going to take you until May. Who knows?

Senator Jessica Ramos: No. Your mouth to God's ears, Brian. I'm really hoping that this is done on Friday. Hopefully, it'll be the best possible budget for our state. Hopefully, all of the leadership can come together and deliver at such a critical time.

Brian Lehrer: Thanks for joining us today.

 

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