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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, we ask the question, do you want an armed guard at every school? The gun violence archive reports that since the start of 2023, 529 children under the age of 17 have died, and nearly 1,300 were injured in shootings in the United States. Another stat for yourself where there have been 14 incidents involving guns at schools that have resulted in 24 deaths or injuries according to Education Week. With more mass shootings than days so far this year, it's hard to deny that the country has a gun violence issue that affects young people.

In the absence of meaningful legislative action to prevent guns from getting into the wrong hands, school districts are taking action on their own. They have filled in the gaps by implementing a variety of safety measures from ensuring all classroom doors have functioning locks to silent panic buttons that alert local police of danger. New York's Chalkbeat, the education site, reported recently that the city's public schools greenlit a $43 million contract to equip schools with video equipment and buzzers in order to keep school doors locked throughout the day.

Now, one of the most controversial security boosts that schools have adopted is arming school security guards. It's not just happening in places like Florida that get a lot of attention for this. A number of school districts on Long Island, South Huntington, Smithtown, others, have implemented or are in the process of installing armed guards in school entryways. Are any of these efforts actually effective? Do they cause any harm psychologically or otherwise to the kids? Will armed guards, locked doors, or panic buttons, save kids from becoming victims of the next school shooting?

Let's look at the results of these safety measures so far with Dr. Marc Zimmerman, co-director of the UM Institute for Firearm Injury Prevention, and Director of the Michigan Youth Violence Prevention Center. Of course, UM is University of Michigan. Dr. Zimmerman, hello from New York. Welcome to WNYC.

Dr. Marc Zimmerman: Thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, what school safety measures are in place in your children's schools or the school you work for perhaps? 212-433-WNYC. Which ones do you like or not like or why? 212-433-9692. Anyone have a story of any particular school security measure preventing an incident of gun violence at the school or do you have a question for our guest, Dr. Zimmerman? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

In this year, Dr. Zimmerman, of what seems like an expanding number of school shootings, almost week by week, month by month, are there some most popular security measures that schools are taking nationwide?

Dr. Marc Zimmerman: Well, that's a really good question. In the National Center for School Safety, which I also direct, which is part of the institute, we think about three kinds of interventions that could happen. One is on the prevention side, and that's either primary prevention or early detection. Then there's the emergency response, what happens during the shooting, and then there's the recovery and all of the issues around trauma-informed care and paying attention to what happens to the school community, and really schools around the country are affected by this. Obviously, shootings are happening in one place. Look what's happening, as you described, to Long Island.

In terms of having an armed guard, there's no question that a school resource officers, law enforcement has a role in school safety, but the way we conceptualize school safety is we have to look at what's under the surface. Really, a school shooting is the tip of the iceberg. If you prevent a school shooting, and you can chop off the top of that iceberg, the Titanic still hits the iceberg that's under the water. We try to focus on what are some of the causes and underlying factors that we can do to prevent, first of all, from a person wanting to go to a school with a gun in the first place.

If you have an armed guard there and there isn't a lot of evidence that necessarily "works," it may send a message. Well, that target is a little bit more dangerous for a shooter so they may choose a school that doesn't have it, possible. It makes sense that it might be the case. We also know that the presence of firearms really just means there's more bullets that might be flying. If somebody's coming into the school, there's an armed guard right there at that moment, would that potentially prevent the shooting? Certainly possible. Not 100% guaranteed.

That's why we look at more of the prevention side, and what do we need to do in schools so that people don't want to bring a weapon to school in the first place? People aren't aggrieved to come back and get revenge or do a school shooting in the first place. That's what we focus on. I don't know if that completely addresses the question you asked, but it's more than guarding schools. We have to think about, what's the climate that we want in the schools? What role can this law enforcement play in helping create a positive climate? What role do teachers? What role do parents? What role do administrators create to [crosstalk]--

Brian Lehrer: Yet, you can understand why, while we're talking about these longer-term things, let's address motivation. Let's address mental health. Let's address military-style firearms that can shoot so many bullets so quickly. While all those things are being addressed longer-term, schools are like, "Wait, there are school shootings taking place, we also have to fortify?"

Dr. Marc Zimmerman: Well, let's look at the data. There's no question that these are heinous acts, and they're on the increase. There's no question about that. However, schools are relatively safe. A colleague of mine recently did an editorial in those for CNN. His name is Ron Astor. He talked about how actually schools are getting more safe, even though there are more shootings, but other dimensions of safety, less bullying, less weapon carries, some other kinds of factors are there. They're not necessarily longer-term. Let me just put out some other information.

One is 75% of cases in school shootings, the gun was acquired from the home or a relative's home. That says to me that we need to pay more attention to safe storage. Safe storage might be a way to prevent some school shootings in the first place. We also need to identify early signs. Some of the signs of a shooter here in Michigan, the perpetrator was known to have looked at websites for buying ammunition. Was known to be doing other kinds of things that were early signs that if he had gotten that help, he may not have come back to that school and shot up his peers.

Think about the cost of a guard, and think about how much ground that guard can cover. Even if for example, like cameras, we are putting cameras. Well, cameras aren't going to stop a shooting, they're going to maybe help prevent further carnage, but that person has gotten into the building. The idea of locking doors obviously makes a lot of sense. Controlling some access to the school obviously makes a lot of sense. The shooter in Nashville blew out the door with the weapon, it was a glass door, so maybe also replacing doors to not be glass doors.

To what extent do we want to make our schools fortified, and to what extent do we want to think about, "Well, what's going on in the first place of things that we can do that aren't really long term, they take more effort, but they aren't necessarily longer-term solutions or longer-term effects?"

Brian Lehrer: Well, with more armed guards being placed at schools on Long Island, here's a Long Island caller who I think has a thought and a question about that. Nolan in Carle Place, you're on WNYC. Hi, Nolan. Oh, Nolan disappeared. Well, I'll ask Nolan's question. He was going to ask I believe, "What weapon would a school-armed security guard need to carry to address somebody who's coming in with an AR-15?"

Dr. Marc Zimmerman: Well, there you go. I'm not an arms expert in the sense of what weapons you would need to address it. I think that's more of a law enforcement question.

Brian Lehrer: I think it was probably a rhetorical question on his part, right?

Dr. Marc Zimmerman: Well, right because [crosstalk]--

Brian Lehrer: Because if you have a guy with a pistol, the AR-15 shooter is going to overwhelm him but I guess the counterargument by the school districts would be well, at least there's a chance that the good guy with the gun could hit the bad guy with a gun.

Dr. Marc Zimmerman: You have to remember if they're walking into the school and there isn't other people around but one of the issues is of course, in talking to law enforcement because when they go into a situation like that obviously they have to protect themselves at some level, otherwise what good are they if they're and then shot and the person continues? The other one is, it's not always clear who the other shooters are if there’s many people with guns in the situation. Who's the good guy and is the bad guy? They don’t wear white hats and blue hats and green hats, they're not necessarily the good guy or the bad guy especially if it’s somebody's not in a uniform.

The other issue is bullets don't have a mind, so when you shoot a bullet and it misses, it could hit something else, ricochet, and hit other people. The more bullets you have flying, the more dangerous it is for everybody in that school. While that's a rhetorical question, the other issue is if that guard happens to be called over to some other place or somewhere else at the moment, there still could be some carnage. Now maybe it gets prevented, maybe that person gets shot before too long but if you saw the video from Nashville’s case, they were clearing the building as they were going along and they were being careful.

That person while they're being careful which of course they should be, there could be more carnage. I just want to keep saying it's really about prevention because if they've already have a gun in school we've lost and there's going to be likely loss of life. Somebody's life. Likely the shooter but others as well.

Brian Lehrer: I guess there's the question of can there ever be a case where it's justifiable for the armed security guard to shoot an attacker before the attacker shoots a kid or shoots a teacher or shoots anyone else in the school? If you have somebody with even an AR-15 coming and let's say shooting out the lock on the door, do you then have a moral or legal right to shoot that person?

Dr. Marc Zimmerman: I’ll leave that to the lawyers and to the legislators with all sorts, I really don't-- In terms of the moral case, let’s not go down that road or at least I don't know that I can specifically speak to that. I think you're absolutely right. Just anecdotally, in my own hometown, there was somebody who went into a concert in one of our high schools with a gun on his belt and he challenged the parents there and said, "What are you doing here?" He said, "I'm coming to watch the show and I'm allowed to carry a gun in my holster," and he was right.

You have to think about, "Well, who's shooting who and in what situation?" We know there's all sorts of issues that just happened this week about people knocking on the wrong door and then getting shot. I think we have to start thinking about what kind of society are we creating here where this becomes the answer to our problems is arming each other. Because you're right, sometimes you may not get the situation right. I think again, it isn't about guns as the solution. It feels good, it makes some intuitive sense but there's not a lot of evidence that being armed necessarily does protect you.

We will definitely hear the stories where, "Oh, it did," but the research that I know about gun ownership and being armed and having an unlocked loaded gun in one's house, there is more evidence that you're more likely to be hurt by that gun or buy somebody else's gun than you are to protect yourself or others. Also, remember that 60% of all firearm deaths in America are caused by suicide which are often very impulsive acts.

Brian Lehrer: You're saying most suicides in this country are-- no, you're saying most of the gun deaths in this country are suicides, right?

Dr. Marc Zimmerman: Correct. They tend to be older white men in rural areas.

Brian Lehrer: A couple of people are calling in to defend the idea of armed security guards at schools. Let's talk to one of them. I think Leah in Bridgewater, New Jersey is one of those people. Leah, you’re on WNYC. Hi there.

Leah: Hi. First thing, it's really understandable that there is an apprehension about having law enforcement or retired law enforcement officers in schools but when we're talking about like what happened in Nashville where the perpetrator was seeking out a place that had lower security, they were probably looking at who was there and had some sense of whether or not they may or may not be armed or perceived to be armed. Further, often these officers are members of the community and they're trained to recognize early signs of kids that might exhibit potential issues.

Further, when it comes to locking doors and everything, locking doors is the fundamental part of keeping people out but often the people that are responsible for making sure those doors are locked are security officers. That was my comment for, and thank you for picking the call.

Brian Lehrer: I see you told our screener that you're a Board of Ed member there, have you instituted an armed guard policy in Bridgewater?

Leah: We have instituted security. I can't speak to the exact nature of it due to it being security but we do have security on site.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Leah. I appreciate your call. Here's someone else who likes the idea for their kids' school. Will, in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Will, thank you for calling in. Hi.

Will: Hi, Brian. My child goes to a Jewish Day School, we've sought some peace of mind that security measures are in place. The school won't share with the parents what measures are taken to prevent these kinds of horrific school shootings and I think that there's something to be said for deterrence that if there were schools around the country and everyone knew that schools have armed security and this could be with even non-lethal force, stun guns, what have you, I think that there would be a general understanding and a deterrence of the fact that these are not the soft targets.

I’m a Joe Biden-Barack Obama liberal, proud, and true Democrat, but let's treat the root of the problem but let's also not deny the symptoms too. I'll take any comments off the air but that's how I feel.

Brian Lehrer: Will, thank you.

Will: I like armed guards at my daughter's school.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for chiming in. Here's Stephen in Manhattan, a former principal, I believe, who I think has a different opinion than the last few callers. Stephen, you're on WNYC. Hi, there.

Stephen: Hi, Brian, and thanks for the call. I couldn't agree with the guests more. I just think we should not be guided by fear and like any other form of terrorism, we don't want to change our way of life. I want to endorse the idea that we should focus on the school cultures and communities that we want and foster those. If I could indulge a very quick story, as a school leader in a New York City public school building where I had a student population of 90% poverty, associated with crime and all that, we had an open-door policy in our cafeteria which doesn't sound like a big deal when you think about parents being allowed in.

In New York City public schools, parents are not allowed in school buildings to visit during breakfast and spend time but in our school, they were because we felt that made the school community safer to have more eyes as the person who cares the most about a child near them at the start of the day. This community was a set of eyes and ears. In 17 years of this policy minus the year of closure for the pandemic, I was warned over and over again by other school leaders in the building and other people on the staff, "I'm so worried, what if an incident happens, is it going to be unsafe?" There was never an incident.

In fact, people came to me and other staff members and said I'm concerned about this parent who's whatever and there were early interventions. We were able to pull people aside and address concerns before they became problems. Having a community that is strong, there's trust and relationships, and there are eyes and ears around helping and not in suspicion and fear, I think built community, focused on school culture, build relationships, and there's nothing I can imagine that make my children who are in school right now less safe than having a gun in the building.

Brian Lehrer: What if one of the parents came to you or a group of the parents came to you and said, "Principal, Steve, I feel like those last two callers I just heard on the Brian Lehrer show, and your open door policy for family members is great, but why don't we also have an armed guard, just in case, some really heinous person tries to show up doing what they did in Nashville?"

Stephen: It's just like the guest said, the data needs to guide us, and guns make us less safe. If there's a gun in the building, we've already lost. That's already a problem. The data does suggest that guns are a massive problem, but they're a bigger problem in our minds than they are in reality. I feel safer in a school building without a gun, and the data backs me up on that.

Brian Lehrer: Stephen, thank you for your call. Professor Zimmerman, be patient, we're going to take one more in this set. Benjamin in Flatbush, you're on WNYC. Hi Benjamin.

Benjamin: I just wanted to bring in the fact that there's been a lot of research done with police officers already in school, and they've criminalized the behavior of young people, so it sort of directly led to this school-to-prison pipeline. Alex Vitale has written about this. I just think that involving police in our schools is a really bad idea. I grew up here in the '90s, and there was a security guard with a baseball bat, and that was enough.

Brian Lehrer: Do you know that book enough to elaborate on the argument, how having police in schools increases the school-to-prison pipeline if that's the argument you're making?

Benjamin: Yes, the book is called The End of Policing by Alex Vitale, he's at CUNY. It basically makes the argument where minor behavioral infractions end up becoming criminalized. A kid acts out, and that disrupts the class. The teacher wants to get the highest test scores, to get the best funding, so that kid is pushed out of the class through this criminalization of their behavior. Even if you just look at social media, there's tons of videos of police officers harassing students. Again, maybe they're acting out, but is this criminal? Seems quite extreme.

Brian Lehrer: Benjamin, thank you very much. All right, Dr. Zimmerman, you heard a whole bunch of callers there, parents, school board members, former students, principal, what do you think? People are all over the place on this.

Dr. Marc Zimmerman: Yes, people are all over the place on this. Let me just say something and defend police officers and law enforcement role in school safety. When we talk about school safety, we talk about having-- there's school safety teams that may review a situation or anonymous reporting that's been done, and then the issue around criminalizing behavior.

One of the big issues about criminalizing behavior is the disproportionate effect that may have with unconscious bias, and that kids of color tend to be the ones who are suspended or expelled, or arrested. The white kids tend to be, "Oh, well, they're just acting out." There's different kinds of assumptions being made about them. I think there are definitely issues around that, but the National Association for the school resource officers, I think, would back me up on this notion, and that is, if you're a police officer in a school, you need to be trained, it's different than being a cop on the street.

I mean that in the most positive ways. It's a different situation, you have to understand that kids' brains are not fully developed, so sometimes they act out. When we adults say, "What was that kid thinking?" The answer is often, "Well, they weren't because their frontal cortex isn't fully developed." They don't not necessarily evaluating the situation like we might as adults about what's risky, what's not, and somebody who's working in the school needs to be aware of those kinds of developmental issues. There's lots of evidence that brain injury interferes with--

Brian Lehrer: Oops, did we lose Professor Zimmerman there? I think your line is breaking up. You know what? I'm going to do our top-of-the-hour legal ID because it's 11:01, and then I'll let you finish that answer. I want to ask you a follow-up question about psychological harms. This is WNYC-FM HD and AM New York, WNJT-FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are New York and New Jersey Public Radio and Live Streaming at wnyc.org.

As we're talking about the response to school shootings, the response on Long Island and elsewhere, of having more armed security guards posted at the front doors of schools as well as other kinds of measures that are becoming increasingly common, electrified, locked doors, and buzzer systems, panic buttons, that alert authorities, high fencing, and gates, security cameras, metal detectors, clear backpack requirements, things like that.

If we can get his line back, we have a few more minutes, oh, there he is, with Dr. Marc Zimmerman, co-director of the University of Michigan Institute for Firearm Injury Prevention, and director there of the Michigan Youth Violence Prevention Center. I want to ask about an article in The New York Times that referenced a study showing that prominent security measures at a school can result in students feeling more like suspects than students leading to lower grades in math and fewer students moving on to attend college. Have you seen that data? Do you think that's the thing?

Dr. Marc Zimmerman: Well, yes, we've actually found something similar. On the one hand, youth are supportive of school resource officers, especially when they're seen as other adults in the school and not necessarily there in as a punitive individual in the school. I was saying before about adequate training, they definitely need adequate training for working in the school, learning about what their role is, and how they're part of the whole school safety.

We try to think about this as school safety, rather than violence prevention for all those same reasons. Yes, there is some evidence that the presence of metal detectors, drills, can actually increase kids' anxieties about, "Am I safe? Is this a safe place?" Then it becomes distracting. Similarly, when they're walking to school, if they have to be concerned about their safety, they may be distracted when they get to school, and then also, as school's ending, they may feel like, "Oh, how am I going to get back home safe?"

All of those things can definitely have negative effects on their schooling, on their learning, on their psychological well-being. We've been talking about schools and hardening targets there and whatnot, but it's not just the walls of the school that matter. Yes, those kinds of hardening of targets can have some traumatic effects on kids, and it's another reason why again, I sound like a broken record, why we have to create a situation where kids are not aggrieved, that they're accepted for who they are, and don't feel like they're having to come back to the school to seek revenge.

There are lots of programs, the Sandy Hook Foundation has a program of making sure that kids aren't isolated. It's called Say Hello, and you're supposed to say hello to kids that you don't necessarily always talk to. They have to know the sign so that if there's an anonymous reporting system, know what some of the signs are of somebody going down this road. Rarely does Somebody wake up in the morning and say, "Oh, this is a good day to get a gun to shoot people," there's usually about 80% of the cases, there's a previous grievance of some kind. We need to be able to detect these early and get people the help they need versus just simply arresting people and sending them to prison.

Again, I sound like a broken record, but we really have to think about primary prevention and early detection, so that we can get people the help they need so that they don't end up in this situation in the first place, and then, of course, endanger everybody else there.

Brian Lehrer: Well, the conversation about how to protect students in this era of so many school shootings, obviously goes on. We thank our guests, Dr. Marc Zimmerman, co-director of the University of Michigan Institute for Firearm Injury Prevention, and Director of the Michigan Youth Violence Prevention Center. Thanks so much.

Dr. Marc Zimmerman: Thank you for your time. Appreciate it.

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