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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again everyone. As the Delta variant surges and vaccination rates lag, so much of the work done to prepare for a safe school reopening is being further complicated. What does it take to keep students and educators safe as school opens beyond simply vaccine mandates, which, of course, are not so simple for themselves? For teachers and teachers' unions, what is left to negotiate? Good questions for Randi Weingarten, president of the American Federation of Teachers who joins me now. Hi, Randi, always good to have you. Welcome back to WNYC.

Randi Weingarten: Hi, Brian, and it's always good to be with you. It's always good to be back in New York City, which I am today. [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: That's good to hear. Of course, for listeners that don't know, the AFT that Randi Weingarten is president of is the national umbrella union that includes the UFT, the United Federation of Teachers, which represents the teachers in the New York City public school system, as well as representing teachers in many other places in the country. Let me just jump right in Randi, on the way you made news last week and perhaps some confusion that resulted from that.

I believe that you said you support the idea of vaccine mandates for teachers. It's an unusual position for a union leader to take. You couldn't just say that as president of the union, and then everybody has to go along. The union itself needed to take its own position through votes or its leadership board. What is your position today and what is the union's position today?

Randi Weingarten: Probably what's more important is what's the union's position instead of my position. What I said on Meet the Press, I was careful in choosing my words. You know me well, and I was careful this time, that I thought it was that vaccines have been a way of life in schooling and they are the single most important tool in protecting us from serious death or illness in terms of COVID and that I thought that we, as a union, should be working with our employers when they were proposing or imposing vaccine requirements, including mandates.

By the middle of the week, I called our leadership together. We actually voted unanimously for a resolution like that. There are people all over, there are people who support vaccine mandates for kids and teachers, and there are people who are a little reluctant because of the disinformation, because it's too soon, because of a lot of other reasons.

We did come together and say that when our employers, which is what happens in school systems around the country, there's no national mandate, if our employers are going to do something in terms of vaccine requirements, we're going to work with them, and we're going to figure out how to make them work as opposed to oppose them. That's what we decided as a union.

What you're seeing for example is in New York City, UFT immediately, this is weeks ago, said when Bill de Blasio said that we should have vaccinate or subject people to testing, the UFT agreed with that. The same is true in terms of Washington, DC, and Boston. All the public employee unions have agreed with that kind of position. In California, same thing. This week, in Chicago and in LA, our unions have actually worked out with their employers, the LA School District and the Chicago School District, a full vaccination program and requirement with the exception of those who have medical exemptions or religious exemptions.

Let me just say why. There are teachers who are on all sides of this. Frankly, there are teachers, for example, in Chicago who said, "Look, I know I have to be in school, I know it's important for kids, I want to be protected and I want my kids to be protected." That's why the last thing I'll say on this is that's why you see that 90% of my teacher members have gotten the vaccine and had told us by polling as early as April, that they had either gotten the vaccine or had a specific appointment for that.

Teachers have actually stood up for our kids and for society in terms of getting the vaccine. Now we need an all-of-society approach here on both vaccines. Frankly, I would say indoor masking for schools.

Brian Lehrer: You are for indoor masking for schools, which again, puts a burden or requirement on your members to be wearing masks throughout their workday.

Randi Weingarten: Yes. Look, they don't like it. Nobody likes wearing a mask all day. I shouldn't say no one. I'm sure there are some people that do. I've said this to you before, in terms of just my own personal experience, I'm an asthmatic. It's hard for me, every time I wear a mask indoors, it's hard and I understand it's really hard for kids. I've talked to parents who are anti-mask. They're like, "When is there going to be an off-ramp on this? Are we're going to have mask forever?"

I understand their concern, but with the Delta variant raging the way it is, with us having a pandemic of the unvaccinated, with 1,900 kids being hospitalized right now, the largest ever for COVID, with 94,000 kids, according to the APA pediatricians having COVID as of the week of August 5th, with us not having vaccines for kids under 12, then how do we not do a mask mandate when we want schools to be reopened and stay open?

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, New York City public school teachers who are members of the UFT or anyone else, Randi Weingarten, the president of the national umbrella organization, the AFT, American Federation of Teachers, and former UFT president here in the city herself, is with us. She'll take your phone calls at 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280, or you can tweet your question for Randi Weingarten or your comment @BrianLehrer.

Randi, before we move on to some other things like remote learning options, to be clear, when you say that the role of the union or the position of the union is that it will work with school districts that want to implement vaccine mandates on how to, are there any significant moving parts on the how? Is there a more acceptable or less acceptable way to impose a vaccine mandate in they eyes of the union?

Randi Weingarten: Look, I think that because of the disinformation, Brian, that is still so rampant, particularly on the issue of what happens if I'm pregnant or what happens will my kids be able to have kids? We have to debunk those myths and we have to get to full authorization of these vaccines. That's part of the reason why you're seeing a lot of districts now land on vaccine or test. That's what New York City has done that, as I said, that's what Washington DC has done, that's what the whole state of California has done.

I think that by having that alternative, it is going to create more trust. The reason that people including us were hesitant initially was because there's such polarization and such distrust. We need to create trust in schools that we're trying to, I shouldn't use the word trying, that we're reopening, we're keeping schools open, there's not going to be the disruptions and we're trying to do everything in terms of safety. With the full vaccine mandates that you see in LA that you see in Chicago now and that you see companies doing now, the things that have to be worked out is that there are legitimate-- there were people who can't take a vaccine, who have medical reasons, and that has to be worked out as well.

Brian Lehrer: Jessica, a high school social worker in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with Randi Weingarten. Hi, Jessica.

Jessica: Hi, Randi. We've met before. I was on the show with Michael.

Randi Weingarten: Hi, Jessica.

Jessica: Hi. I was at Stevenson, I'm now at Bard High School and I'm a professor of social work. My question is, how is the union going to help with the trickle-down effect with mental health? Mental health is a huge issue with reintegration, suicide prevention and intervention is very important, but we also have to be looking at staff. How is the union going to handle the trickle-down effect with mental health and reintegration?

Randi Weingarten: Jessica, thank you for asking this question. Before, I would say that if you asked me this on July 1st, these were the questions I thought we'd be asking and answering right now as opposed to going back to these basic safety questions that have seem to take all of our time. The mental health issues are huge, both with staff and with kids, which is part of the reason why we push really hard to get as much money as we could from the American Rescue Plan for social workers, for additional social workers, additional guidance counselors, additional nurses.

We've seen it from camp directors. There was a good New York Times story from camp directors about what they saw this summer and in terms of the real effects that have happened to kids because of the social isolation. Frankly, what we've seen from a RAND report, I think it was RAND or Brookings that did some work with the NDA and us over the last few months, 78% of educators have stress related to COVID because of all the different things that have happened from isolation to being a lifeline, to all the responsibilities that they have.

That was double the number of other American workers. What the AFT is doing is number one, we have a trauma benefit for all of our members. That if you raise the issues around COVID, you were immediately entitled to use this. We're trying to make sure that people around the country know this. We brought this benefit in the middle of COVID for every single one of our members.

Second, we are trying to do a lot of things through Share My Lesson, our website that's free for everyone. Third, through our locals, we're doing a lot of work for both our members in terms of wellbeing, as well as trying to create programs like Michael has done with the city council and the UFT and the school system in terms of having these kinds of wrap-around services and programs. Last thing we're trying to do is we're really pushing to get the community schools and wrap-around services so that they're always available in a non-stigmatized way for both students and staff.

Brian Lehrer: On the mask mandate, and Jessica, thank you for your call. School is in, in New York City, it won't be for a few more weeks, but school boards across Long Island have already been seeing bitter fights about masking as some parents feel very strongly. I'm just curious how the union for its part supporting the mask mandates are prepared for the reality that some parents just won't want to have their kids wear masks and might resist.

Randi Weingarten: Unfortunately, Brian, we're seeing this in terms of the teaching of history. We're seeing this in terms of mask. What we try to do is actually have the scientists make this guidance that we would essentially comply with. We have some great science teachers and some great scientists in the union, but you get to the issue about COVID, we really need to listen to the authorities and the experts.

We're worried about that and that's part of what creates the stress and strain of teaching right now, but we are hopeful that just like you're seeing in Harris County Houston, just like you're seeing in Palm Beach, in Broward, in Jacksonville, in Duval County, Florida, there are pretty exceptional superintendents that are putting people's safety first.

We do know that the things that really, really convinced people are what doctors are saying, particularly pediatricians and what their peers are saying. We have our members' backs and we have been-- I've been out on the road this entire month. I think I've been in 10 states in the last 15 days. I do actually, not only am I double vaxxed, but I also test every week just to make sure that I'm not transmitting anything. That's part of the reason why we have to, on a national and local level, have people's backs, but are we worried?

Of course, we're worried about it. We just don't want to be the mask police, but we think that more and more of these places should actually have this mask policy for right now, not forever, just so we can keep schools open, not just open them, but keep schools open. Last thing I'll say this is we've looked-- there's like 10,000-- there's already been a whole bunch of quarantines in places that haven't had mask mandates, in Arizona, in Florida, and other places. You see that without them, you see a real transmission of this very dangerous Delta variant.

Brian Lehrer: That's an interesting high standard if I understood you correctly, that you're holding yourself to, in addition to being double vaxxed, you're getting COVID tested on a regular basis before you go into crowds.

Randi Weingarten: Yes. I've made a personal decision and look, I did this with my wife as well who's a congregational rabbi, that I test myself. I do a COVID PCR test at least once a week to make sure that I am COVID negative because I'm in the middle of crowds. I feel like my obligation in terms of the AFT is to be out with my peeps. I am trying to make sure that I keep people safe. That's what I do.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a related question in a way from one of your members. This is via Twitter. It says, "I am a UFT and DOE employee and concerned that if testing for unvaccinated employees happens at schools or people are compensated for their time for testing, there won't be an incentive to get vaccinated." I guess what that person who works and doesn't say specifically that he's a teacher, but probably a teacher UFT member.

I guess the person doesn't even like the option to get tested on a weekly basis rather than have to get vaccinated because if it happens too conveniently, meaning being provided at schools or gives the teachers who want the testing option the little perk of getting paid time off to go get their test, that that's going to be an incentive to not get vaccinated. What's your reaction?

Randi Weingarten: People are getting very mad at each other about this because we do have a pandemic of the unvaccinated. I know that this will be controversial to say, but vaccines have been a way of life for us and for my generation forever. It's what helps stop polio. Anyone who had someone in their family who had polio knows the devastating effects of it. It's what helped us beat measles, it's what helped us be chickenpox, it's what helped us be smallpox.

George Washington had the revolutionary forces vaccinated against smallpox when the British attempted to create smallpox in our troops. Ultimately, vaccines are going to be a way of life when it comes to COVID, but what we're doing right now is that we're in a terrible transition period of time where there's so much distrust that we have to create as much trust as possible for the reopening of schools, keeping them open and so that these kinds of choices, I think that de Blasio made, were important.

We'll see what happens, but most importantly, 90% of our members nationwide, teacher members, our powers are a little bit lower than this, and frankly our nurses are a little bit lower than this. 90% of our teacher members basically made the choice that, that member has basically said, which is that they understand that the vaccines are important and that they've taken them. I want to give credit to that 90%. I don't know any other profession, except maybe for doctors, that has had as large a vaccination rate.

Brian Lehrer: One more call before we run out of time. Listeners, our next segment is going to be live coverage and a very interesting point of view guest as well on the evolving situation, really the devolving situation in Afghanistan. Stay tuned for that, but one more call for Randi Weingarten, president of the American Federation of Teachers. It's Holly, a pre-K teacher in Brooklyn. Holly, you're on WNYC. We have about 30 seconds for you. Hi.

Holly: Hi. Okay. Hi Randi. My name is Holly [unintelligible 00:20:57] I'm the daughter of-

Randi Weingarten: Hi, Holly.

Holly: Hi. I'm Jeffrey [unintelligible 00:21:00] daughter, your old UFT person.

Randi Weingarten: Wow.

Holly: I'm calling-- Hi. Yes. I'm a pre-K for all teacher in Queens. We're opening back up to full capacity with 18 kids in those small rooms. We're going to be battling the mask situation, keeping three and four-year-olds in masks. On top of this three-foot protocol that they want us to have in those small rooms where we know that's not going to be accessible, no way is that going to be accessible with 18 four-year-olds on that carpet space. What are we supposed to do?

Brian Lehrer: What are we supposed to do? That, of course, is going to apply to so many schools, which are already overcrowded. How are they going to do three feet?

Randi Weingarten: Part of what we have to do is you're going to be able-- Number one, as you know, I hope you're vaxxed. Number two, we're going have to try and have kids outside as much as possible particularly in the early fall months. Number three, we're going to have to have as much masking. Number four, the protocols that you set up in your class are going to be really, really important. You know this as well as I do in terms of the protocols of getting up and getting down and how we're playing and how we're not playing, and how were sitting around the carpet and not. It's not going to be easy and thank God you're doing it. Thank God you're there.

Brian Lehrer: Randi, just real quick on there being no remote option in the city, also in the entire state of New Jersey, we know already from some schools that have opened in districts that actually start in August around the country that they're already having closures because kids are coming down with COVID here and there. I guess my question about no remote option is what happens when that happens in the city? Will there be no hybrid model where the teachers can teach the kids at home on those days or what can you tell us?

Randi Weingarten: I disagree with the mayor on no remote option. I think there has to be some limited remote option and we have to plan for these disruptions. We've already seen some of them in different places. The problem is there should have been a separate limited remote option. I would say that universally, everyone thought that hybrid education didn't work last year. For teachers, it is impossible to do. I think that that decision is going to have to be revisited about having a limited remote option. Also if there's quarantining, there's going to have to be some kind of remote option.

Brian Lehrer: Lastly, wasn't there a policy in the city last year where teachers who were over 65, because of their risk for potentially more serious COVID, could opt out of in-person and that's gone?

Randi Weingarten: What has happened is that the vaccines are-- The big difference right now, Brian, between last year and this year, is we do have vaccines and they are the single most important and effective tool. Even with the breakthrough cases, what we are seeing is that they are the tool that they were intended to be last year, which is that they for serious illness or death. The breakthrough cases are showing that with Delta, that you can get a flu, you can get sick.

Brian Lehrer: You feel pretty sick but you're not going to wind up-

Randi Weingarten: You feel pretty sick but you're not going to wind up-

Brian Lehrer: -in the hospital.

Randi Weingarten: -in the hospital. That's the huge difference this year and last year, which is why there are very limited medical accommodations.

Brian Lehrer: Randi Weingarten, president of the American Federation of Teachers. Thanks as always. We really appreciate it.

Randi Weingarten: Thank you, Brian. Be safe.

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