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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Our next guest has a new memoir that serves as part personal journey, part historical deep dive into New York City's Chinese community. In his new book, Our Laundry, Our Town: My Chinese American Life from Flushing to the Downtown Stage and Beyond, playwright Alvin Eng shares his memories growing up in flushing when his family was just one of very few Chinese immigrant families living in the neighborhood. He Chronicles his journey from his upbringing in and around his family's hand laundry to his life and career as a playwright.

What he shares will resonate with many of you listening now no doubt. The familiar story of coming from an immigrant family and growing up in New York City feeling both inspired by the bustle around you while also feeling alone or like an outsider. The title of his memoir is also a nod to Thornton Wilder's 1930s play Our Town. Again, it's Our Laundry, Our Town: My Chinese American Life from Flushing to the Downtown Stage and Beyond. Alvin Eng, thank you for joining us. Welcome back to WNYC.

Alvin Eng: Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: The title of your memoir, like I said, is a nod to Thornton Wilder's 1938 play Our Town. What's the connection?

Alvin Eng: Yes. Actually, Our Town has a lot of Chinese influence. When I was getting ready to teach a class on it, I researched it and found that Thornton Wilder's father was consulate-general to both Hong Kong and Shanghai. As a result, Thornton spent a lot of his childhood in China. Then there's a great collection of letters between him and Gertrude Stein. I love that she calls him Thorny as only she can, dear Thorny.

Brian Lehrer: [laughs].

Alvin Eng: He says, "I'm taking all the ideas from your Making of Americans as well as the concept of the property manager from a Chinese opera." That became their stage manager in our town. Then to realize that growing up, as you've said, as a child of immigrants, we're always looking for American frames of reference. Then to think that perhaps the most Americana play has a lot of Chinese influence really rocked my world.

My wife and I did a residency in Hong Kong where we taught Our Town to the Hong Kong students and told them about the Chinese influence. They immediately recognized how just like Chinese opera, it deals more with the spirit world and the mortal world but they even had a funny observation. They asked, "Are those families in Grover's corners, are they from arranged marriages too?"

Brian Lehrer: On the spirit world element of that, I want to read the very first sentence of your memoir. It makes a segue from our last segment about homelessness in New York. It says, you write, "While I have been blessed to have always had a roof over my head and the honor of living with loved ones, when I was growing up, homelessness was a constant spiritual state." That's fascinating. Explain that. How is homelessness a constant spiritual state for you as a kid when you always had a roof over your head?

Alvin Eng: That's true. Again, we're very lucky and blessed to always be housed but yet, I never felt really completely at home anywhere, just trying to find your place to fit in. It always was only to a certain point. I'm not saying I was shunned everywhere but it was almost like you can never find full acceptance, fully be at home as a child. I was very lucky that in my teenage years, the punk rock scene developed in New York City, and suddenly all the outsiders were in there if you will like. We all celebrated our differences and shouted our differences to the rooftops so that changed, but as a child, it was very hard to find a place where I felt at home.

Brian Lehrer: You wrote, "In my teenage high school years, two words, Chinese Rocks, wreaked havoc on my existence. This havoc also had historical precedence globally and personally that I am still processing." Chinese Rocks Is a song by the legendary Ramones who are also Queens kids, I might add, like you and me. Can you elaborate on that passage?

Alvin Eng: Yes, absolutely. Also, it was also done by the Ramones and one other Queen's punk kid, Johnny Thunders' band The Heartbreakers, they co-wrote it and did that. When I finally found my place in the punk rock world, I said, "Oh, this is great I fit in. I don't have to think about how different I am now," but then just even seeing that song title, Chinese Rocks, shook me up. I was like, "Oh, wait a minute. I thought I was in a place now where I didn't have to deal with that anymore." Of course, I was wrong, you've always got to process that and really make peace with your identity. That freaked me out.

Then when I finally listened to the song, I realized, "Oh my God, it's all about Dee Dee Ramone and Johnny Thunders wanting to score some heroin, some China white heroin. Then it made me think much later on a much deeper level, growing up in the '70s, so many of us, we just idolized our heroin chic junkie. Then I looked at the impact of opium on the Chinese diaspora from the Opium Wars, and then within my own family, my grandfather was an opium overdose, and I said, "This is very different. Yes."

Brian Lehrer: Yes, very different. Yet despite the, it sounds like, anti-Chinese hostility implied in that Ramone song, to this day, music and punk music like that remains a big part of your life. I think you call yourself an acoustic punk raconteur, right?

Alvin Eng: Oh, yes. Absolutely. I feel like if you're not a trained musician, not a trained actor, that is your lane. It sums up an acoustic punk raconteur. It's all coming together with a a newer piece I'm working on now called Here Comes Johnny Yen Again. That's actually the first line from the Iggy Pop, David Bowie song Lust for Life and it explores deeper. Where a lot of Our Laundry, Our Town looks at my parents' journey, in many ways now this is looking at my grandfather's journey and how he was an opium addict. I'm looking into how that-- Just juxtaposing that with growing up in the '70s loving heroin she junkie.

We'll be doing some of this in October as part of an overall event where New York and Asian American artists respond to the 25th anniversary of the Hong Kong handover. To me, my way into that was the key concession of the Opium Wars was the ceding of Hong Kong from China to Britain. Then in '97, it was returned back to China. We're looking at how that really impacted immigration to New York in particular from that, and also how it impacted the Chinese diaspora. That's going to be October 14th at the Church Street School of Music in Tribeca.

Brian Lehrer: What a road for people of Hong Kong from being under British colonialism to being under Chinese authoritarianism.

Alvin Eng: Absolutely. That's why it was fascinating. When my wife, Wendy Wasdah, and I were doing our workshop in Hong Kong, it was fascinating to talk to the young people. Sadly, they all much preferred UK rule to China rule. Of course, I wish that it wasn't just that binary. Of course, I wish they could rule themselves. It was very fascinating, especially like here we are too, we're a former British colony too.

Brian Lehrer: We will look for that in October for sure. Yes, this is the 25th anniversary. That was 1997 that Hong Kong got turned over back to China. Then, for a while anyway, had a modicum of independence. Listeners, we want to open up the phones. I wonder if any Chinese Americans specifically are listening and if Alvin Eng's story resonates with you. Listeners who came from specifically Chinese immigrant families or immigrants yourselves, I'm curious if you're relating to this.

Did you also feel like an outsider, spiritually homeless even if you had a roof over your head? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Did your parents also have a hand laundry as some Chinese American families did at one time? 212-433-9692 for Alvin who's the author now of Our Laundry, Our Town: My Chinese American Life from Flushing to the Downtown Stage and Beyond, or maybe some of his place.

You link your family's laundry to what you call the long chain of Chinese American resistance in 20th century New York City. That jumped out at me because I guess I grew up just a few miles from you but in a mostly white neighborhood. There was a Chinese hand laundry that my parents sometimes brought clothes to. The last thing that I associated it with even as I started to become politically aware was it being a form of anything linked to resistance. Talk about that link between the Chinese hand laundry that your parents had and Chinese American resistance in the history of New York City.

Alvin Eng: Absolutely. They were able to thrive, like the laundry in my neighborhood in Flushing was a few miles away in Bayside, because of a group called the Chinese Hand Laundry Alliance. That was in the 1930s. It also growed up that whole-- Even before that, as Chinese immigration was really getting to be a threat in some circles, it started off with the first and, God help us, the last American law that made it illegal for one race of people to become citizens here was the Chinese Exclusion Act. That grew out of all the fear in the late 19th century. The Gold Rush at that time, suddenly the license to mine gold was so much more expensive for Chinese.

Then they tried to do that same thing with the laundries in early 20th century New York City where all of a sudden made an astronomical for the licenses for Chinese hand laundry people. This time, they stood together, they bonded together, and they fought it. In many ways, it was one of the first labor movements for Chinese Americans was the Chinese Hand Laundry Alliance. They paved the way for my parents because then after that became McCarthyism. I learned a lot. Also talked about being spiritually homeless. Growing up as a kid, I thought, "How come my parents don't know anyone, they never attend PTA meetings, and they only socialize with other Chinese hand laundry families and relatives?"

On one level, there was a language thing where only my father learned to speak fluent English. My mother spoke very little English. Then as I got older realized they were raised under the cloud of the Chinese Exclusion Act and of McCarthyism. They really had to lay low to not be caught essentially. That's how it affected me. I realized it's affected us for good and for worse. Thankfully with the Chinese Hand Laundry Alliance, that showed that we belonged here. That was a stand where that paved the way for my parents. Yet even though we were there physically, we weren't there in every way.

It's funny how things change now too. There's a lot more visibility for these things. Right now at the Museum of the City of New York, they've added a gallery about the Chinese Hand Laundry Alliance to their ongoing show called Raise Your Voice about New York City activism. There's been a lot of amazing confluences around the release of my book and what's been going on in the city and the world. That's just one of the positive ones.

Brian Lehrer: One of the lines from your book, "The cleaned garments wrapped up in these packages were the silent witnesses to the events and rituals that made up the lives of their wearers." Did you and your parents speculate about the lives of the mostly not Chinese people who were bringing their clothes there?

Alvin Eng: I did. I definitely did. I wrote about that too where I would imagine-- If you remember the old hand laundry, they're primarily these brown wrapped packages with all these different colored tickets on the walls. To me, that always looked like a big apartment building to me. I called it the great wall of laundry. I imagined, "Wow, where are these packages going?" Unfortunately, my parents had a very turbulent arranged marriage.

That's why another thing in the '70s while New York was going through extreme changes and getting really wild in so many ways, I would go home to a household that was not just rooted in a different culture but almost rooted in a different century because they had an arranged marriage. They worked hard. They worked 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. I always assumed that the people who could afford to have other people clean their laundry and have it dressed, they must have lived on easy streets. I imagined, "Wow, these garments I'm wrapping up, they must be going home to people that have these perfect lives."

Brian Lehrer: Did your mother, do you have any recollection since it was in 1970s, express any awareness of the feminist movement that was breaking out around her as she was in this arrangement? Maybe she liked the arranged marriage, I don't know, but they're so opposite, right?

Alvin Eng: Oh, no. It really was. In some ways too, she was always a very strong woman. We're Toisanese, which is almost like the Sicilians, we're from the south. There was a big pipeline from Toisan to Hong Kong to New York City for immigration. We were the primary people who ran the Chinatowns in the 19th and 20th centuries, so my mother was very independent always. My parents had an arranged marriage.

My father came here first. He started working in a Chinatown restaurant and became, by the village standards, a rich man so he went back, they had the arranged marriage, and then my mother did not see or hear from him for 10 years. Through village contact, she came on her own as a paper wife, meaning she had false identification papers to come here to find him. She was very independent, very strong already.

Brian Lehrer: Alvin Eng with us. His new book, Our Laundry, Our Town: My Chinese American Life From Flushing to the Downtown Stage and Beyond. Julie in Port Washington, you're on WNYC. Hi, Julie.

Julie: Hi. Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: I can hear you.

Julie: Oh, okay. Thank you very much for doing this segment. This is my first time calling in and thanks to you. With the pandemic, I've been listening to your show.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you so much.

Julie: So many things that he's talking about, I identify. My parents came here from China. They have encountered a lot of the issues that Mr. Eng is talking about. My father came as a paper son and there were a lot of things that he was involved with. We're like outsiders. Even though I was born in this country, we stayed to ourselves. Chinatown was a little bit better, but when we moved out to Flushing, it was a little bit harder because we were different. I really appreciate he talking about that. I know people think about that history that much, and I wish there were more discussion in the school system about what the immigrants, especially Chinese immigrants, have to go through.

I'm really appreciative of what you're doing. I was afraid of calling because I feel like you're not going to listen to me because I'm not Caucasian or anything like that. Thank you very much for doing it. I really truly identify everything. Downtown Flushing at that time was mostly Caucasian. I also remember the RKO Theater there. I don't know what's going on down there, but Flushing has changed so much and there's a lot more Asians than when I moved in 1970s. Thank you very much.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Julie. That grand old theater, the RKO Keith, where my parents would take me sometimes if we wanted to see something on a really big screen. I don't know what the state of it is today. Alvin, what are you thinking listening to Julie?

Alvin Eng: No, absolutely, that it's huge. Flushing has changed so much. The section of Flushing I grew up in was actually very Jewish and Italian. I always joke that every Saturday in the eighth grade, I was dancing the Hora at a bat mitzvah or a bat mitzvah every Saturday. It was very different then. We were one of the few Chinese families there. Now it's become like a real physical metaphorical center of the Chinese community like Flushing, of course, Manhattan's Chinatown, and Sunset Park. It's very different now.

We talked about feeling spiritually homeless and just what Julie said, we felt like no one would listen to us, and that still pervades in us as adults in some ways too. That's why in some ways with all the anti-Asian hate crimes for the past few years, we actually have more of a voice than we ever had. It's really created ways for us to speak out. I just love that there's so much more support from different communities.

I do a lot of activist work with a group called Rise and Resist. We do a lot of immigrant activism. There's support coming from so many different angles from there. I do a lot of work with the folk work group City Lore. They sponsored the 40th anniversary of the Chinatown Garment Workers Alliance. That's another point of a Chinese American resistance so it's great. Then what's happening to Museum of the City of New York. It's great that there's a lot more support and interest. Because of all the heinous crimes, I think we've never had a stronger voice on the streets and on the stage, and screens. That's why I think that's been a great way to fight back if you will.

Brian Lehrer: Julie mentioned there should be more education in the schools. I know that there's a movement that has broken out right now, I think really become more prominent because of the recent rash of hate crimes, to require some Asian American history to be taught in the public schools in New York State. We will see if that gets enshrined. Julie, you're always welcome here. Call us again. Eugene in Nyack, you're on WNYC. Hi, Eugene.

Eugene: Hello. I'm really excited to learn more about Alvin. I grew up in the Midwest in the '80s and I was really into the hardcore scene and the punk rock scene and the skate scene. There were no real role models. Especially in athletics, you didn't have someone in society to really look up to. There were skateboarders that were Asian that were on top, Christian Hosoi, and he listened to a lot of like LA punks.

There are a couple of bands, Bitch Magnet and Marginal Man from DC. They had Asian guitar players and it just helped me gain confidence in playing in a band and especially in the Midwest because it was so homogenous. In that book, Please Kill Me, about the '70s punk rock scene, there was a woman, I forgot her name, but she was Chinese. She was like a groupie, but another key figure in that scene. Anyway, I really appreciate the--

Brian Lehrer: Alvin, you want to Eugene at all?

Alvin Eng: Sure. Eugene, thanks for calling. Yes, there were not a lot of Asian Americans in the punk world. There was some. I had some more in the '70s world too where I think some people you're talking about, they were more on the side, but on the stage, there wasn't as much. That's why we were always looking for things. Even when I did Here Comes Johnny Yen Again, I first thought, "Johnny Yen? Is that a Chinese character? Could that be?"

Actually, the Iggy Pop, David Bowie song is based on the William S Burroughs' character, Johnny Yen. No, there were not a lot of that. That's why we all come into different angles. Again, that's when I first even heard about the song Chinese Rocks. I was freaked out. Maybe you find this too, but I thought despite that there weren't a lot of Asian Americans in the punk scene, that just being there was a world where we were all celebrating our differences. I felt like all the misfits fit in there.

Brian Lehrer: [chuckles]

Eugene: Yes. If you are a skateboarder, you're just part of this army of misfits. When I was 16, that's when I really felt comfortable in a social scene. Anyways, you're really interesting.

Alvin Eng: Oh, great. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead, Alvin.

Alvin Eng: Yes. Also, having immigrant parents, in some ways, it helped ground me too. When I first started painting my fingernails black like the punk bands like Freddie Mercury, in particular, I would go home and my mother would see my black fingernails and she would you just say, "Ha ha ha, Batman." It was good to have that grounding in some ways too.

Brian Lehrer: Eugene, thanks so much for your call. Call us again. Does this relate to the second half of the title of your book? That is how you eventually wound up in the downtown Manhattan theater scene and being a playwright? Then we're out of time.

Alvin Eng: Okay. Yes, it did lead to that. Really two things happened. The person that changed my life then and now was David Johansen. He let me interview him when I was writing for the Flushing High School paper, The Forum. Then years later, he actually didn't choose me to write with this, but then it came time to tell our stories. I found that also inspired by Our Town, I started doing a piece called The Last Emperor of Flushing, places like Dixon Place and the Spanish Repertory Theater, and even the Queens Theatre in the park.

Theater was a place where you could find stuff and luckily see in the late '70s, early '80s punk performance art people like Holly Hughes, Ethel Eichelberger, people like that where I said, "Wow, there's a place for this crazy punk rock energy in a place besides a two-minute song." That was a great thing that led to more theater. Also, I think have more facility with words than music. I love my 2.5 chords, but I have more facility with words.

Brian Lehrer: [chuckles] As displayed in the conversation, which is now ending, with Alvin Eng, E-N-G, his new book is Our Laundry, Our Town: My Chinese American Life from Flushing to the Downtown Stage and Beyond. So great to have you on, Alvin. Thanks a lot.

Alvin Eng: Thank you. Great to share this with another Queens guy. Thank you.

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