Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Today could be the day when Congress passes President Biden's first COVID relief bill that could deliver up to $1.9 trillion to people being economically socked by the pandemic. One thing that the data shows and just about everyone affected knows to experience, women, and especially moms with kids at home, are getting socked more than anyone. December's jobs report, have you heard the stat showed a net loss in this country of 140,000 jobs? The net loss among women was 140,000 jobs. The net loss among men was zero.

Black and Latinx women are disproportionately affected because of the pandemic sensitive service work they disproportionately do. This doesn't even begin to address the fact that mothers with jobs are doing those jobs and actively parenting more than men do, and the mental health toll of that. We'll get to that. Nearly five million women have lost their jobs in the pandemic more lost jobs than men. An estimated two million other women who have voluntarily left the workforce largely to take care of kids who are going to school remotely is another category. A third of the women ages 25 to 44 who lost their jobs said childcare is the reason.

A group of women led by Reshma Saujani, the founder of the group, Girls Who Code. You know her? She's been on the show, and she's done a lot with Girls Who Code. Took out a full-page ad in The New York Times, an open letter to President Biden calling for a Marshall Plan for Moms. What is that? Well, at the heart of it is a $2,400 a month check to mothers depending on their other income. Here is Reshma Saujani on MSNBC.

Reshma Saujani: When COVID started, we were over 50% of the labor force. My students were watching their mothers, the innovators, creators, doctors, lawyers, teachers, artists, and every woman I know has had to reduce her hours, say no to that promotion, go on food stamps, move in with their parents, they've seen their dreams diminished. This pandemic has burdened mothers the most. Any economic recovery plan that this administration is putting forth has to put mothers at the center of it.

Brian: Reshma Saujani from Girls Who Code and now from the Marshall Plan for Moms movement. Did President Biden see the ad with the open letter? Does the Biden relief bill have a Marshall Plan for Moms? Biden's press secretary Jen Psaki was asked that question at her daily briefing on Wednesday. Here's the question from CBS News, white house correspondent Ed O'Keefe and Jen Psaki's reply.

Ed O'Keefe: There was a full-page ad in The New York Times last week, put there by several prominent women calling on the Biden administration to implement what they call a Marshall Plan for Moms in the first 100 days. Has the president seen the ad and would he support the idea of monthly payments to mothers who are saddled by this pandemic?

Jen Psaki: Well, as a mom myself, I can confirm for you that the conversation I have most frequently with friends on Zoom calls is about the impact of the pandemic on working moms across the country. What the President has certainly concern about, as we all are, is the fact that this has a disproportionate impact on communities of color, on women of color, who are working, many of them working on jobs as frontline workers and playing vital roles in industries across the country. It's certainly an issue that Secretary Yellen, his economic team are focused on and will be looking for ways to help appease.

Brian: The answer from Jen Psaki, Biden's press secretary was, no, there is no Marshall Plan for Moms per se, but with an acknowledgment of the disproportionate effect of the pandemic on mothers with kids at home specifically, and women in general, Black and brown women more than white ones. The Biden package does include three months of paid sick and family leave between now and September, and a new childcare tax credit of up to $8,000 depending on your income. If you've seen The New York Times website yet today, maybe you've already come across a new package of articles called The Primal Scream: America's Mothers Are in Crisis.

With us now is one of the editors and contributors to that package, Jessica Bennett, editor at large for the Times who writes about gender and culture. Her article in the package is called Three American Mothers, On the Brink. Also, with us is one of those three American mothers, Dekeda Brown from Olney, Maryland. She refers to herself as an autism mom. She is also an advocate and founder of a nonprofit Walk One Day In Our Shoes, and in her day job, she works in community relations for a bank. In the article, it says, "She used to be June Cleaver, now she doesn't know who she is." Jessica, welcome back. Dekeda, thanks so much for joining us, welcome to WNYC.

Jessica Bennett: Thank you.

Dekeda Brown: Thank you.

Brian: Jessica, our news hook is the relief bill and whether it's targeted sufficiently to women, and especially moms to reflect the proportion of their economic and lifestyle hit, and we'll get to that. First, do you want to talk a little about the overarching title for this set of articles, the Primal Scream?

Jessica: [laughs] Yes, I would love to. We learned a few months back that there were a group of moms in New Jersey, actually, who had decided on the first day of school in September, they were going to go into the respective fields by their home and let out a primal scream. They were working, they were parenting, they were schooling, and it gave us this idea-

Brian: An actual primal scream, not a metaphor.

Jessica: A literal, primal scream. They've had it and they just couldn't take it anymore. We decided to open up a phone line at the Times where any parent could call in, and scream, cry, vent, hide in a closet, whatever they might do to make themselves feel better and express their frustration at this moment.

Brian: Do you have the audio? [laughs] That was a joke. Do you have the audio? We would play the audio, but we'll invite moms to call in with their own primal screams in just a second. Dekeda, let's introduce you to our listeners. First, the article says you're 41, really, you're a generation too young to have watched June Cleaver, the always cheerful and relaxed mom on the sitcom Leave it to Beaver, the opposite of a primal scream. Generational disconnect aside, why did you tell Jessica, you used to be her?

Dekeda: I used to watch June Cleaver after school. When I came home from school, it was the only thing on before cartoons. I just remember her in her perfectly ironed apron, in her heels, and she was perfect. I was like, "Oh, my gosh, that is awesome. This is the perfect-- The epitome of the perfect mom." That was what I had in my mind, and that's how I felt like my life was going pre-pandemic, everything worked like clockwork. No, I didn't wear an apron and heels every night, but I did feel like I had things under control and I'm in a position now where I just do not feel that that is the case.

Brian: Now are you primal screaming?

Dekeda: Yes, I'm primal screaming, I'm primal cursing, I'm primal drinking wine, I'm primal, binge-watching, I'm doing it all.

Brian: Jessica, I see that Dekeda even won an award just a year ago as working mother of the year and I won't put her on the spot to be immodest. Can you tell us who gave that award and why to her?

Jessica: Yes. About a year ago, Dekeda was standing on stage in New York City accepting an award for working mother of the year that was put together by Working Woman magazine, and also her company. Her husband was in the crowd very proudly taking photos and texting them to her two daughters. This is my favorite anecdote, I think, from spending all this time with Dekeda, was exactly one year later, she was standing in the wine aisle of her local grocery store in Maryland, with her keys and her cell phone in her hand in a trance staring at the bottles wondering if she should just start smashing them because she had had enough.

Brian: Oh, my, Dekeda, you want to pick up that story from there?

Dekeda: Yes. The picture, it's literally if you just imagine me with my arm stretched out, you know how you just clear off a desk or a table, I just felt like that would feel really good right now. On top of that, if I did that, possibly, I could be taken away for a few days and not have to deal with everything that was going on under my roof. It was just one of those weird moments. I didn't want to drink the wine, I wanted to smash those bottles and feel better. Yes, there are days like that, many days that I have like that.

Brian: Now, listeners, moms with kids at home our phones are open for you right now. If you can break away from remote school supervision for a few minutes. 646-435-7280. Did you sign the Marshall Plan for Moms petition? Did you see any of these Times articles yet under the heading, The Primal Scream? Would you like to call in with a pandemic mom primal scream? of your own, and what policies from the government or from employers would provide the most help? 646 435 7280. Maybe you want to talk to your husband through the radio, that's okay too.

You're invited at 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280 for pandemic moms right now with Jessica Bennett, New York Times editor at large on the gender and culture beat, and last year's American mom of the year to Dekeda Brown, who used to be June Cleaver, but isn't sure who she is anymore as the pandemic lifestyle drags on. 646-435-7280. Just before we get to the policy issues, Dekeda, a little more of your story. I see you have two kids, 11 and 15, and the article says your 15-year-old has severe non-verbal autism with a sensory processing disorder, which means she needs help with most daily tasks. Is she doing remote schooling when she used to go in person?

Dekeda: She is, and the most difficult part is that I can't send her to her bedroom to do her schoolwork. She relies on me to really help her. I'm basically a ninth-grade student again and she relies on me to help her to answer her teacher's questions. She uses a device that is an electronic device like an iPad. She uses that to answer her questions to communicate using her voice and she can't do it on her own. She needs me to assist her. She literally sits up under me all day, we sit together at the dining room table at my war room and I do my work and she does her schooling. Of course, being in person would be ideal for her. We've seen a lot of regression since she's been home, but the fact is it's just not safe and she has to be here.

Brian: Wow, and you're doing your job for the bank from home at the same time?

Dekeda: I am, yes. I'm taking calls and I'm doing WebEx and all of those things are going on right at the table next to my daughter.

Brian: What's all that like for you?

Dekeda: Well, it is-- Some days we're killing it. Some days, at the end of the school day and the work day, I'm like, yes, we can do this, this isn't bad at all, we got it and then other days by 10 AM, we're tapping out. There are many of those days where we just can't do it, my daughter will get up from the table, and she'll gesture or point or sign that she wants to go outside and I just have to put my shoes on, put our coats on and we go outside because that is what our day is going to be. She really dictates things when it comes to that. I take a lot of calls from the car taking car rides for work, it's a struggle.

Brian: Jessica, I guess part of the point of your article is you don't have to have a kid with special needs to feel like primal screaming these days, right?

Jessica: Exactly and I think for many parents, it's just the sheer amount of multitasking. That was one of the things that struck me in following Dekeda and these other mothers. I had them keep daily time diaries, where I would try to understand through voice memos or text messages or written words, exactly what they were thinking at all moments and there were 15 things going on in their brains. Dekeda just would describe her war room as she describes it, the dining room table she's talking about, having one earbud in one ear with her work conference call, her other ear open, listening to her daughter's Zoom school, and her daughter communicates via a touchscreen device.

Her other daughter upstairs in the bedroom doing Zoom school on her own, the puppy in the cage potentially barking and she's thinking of all of these things at once and suddenly, at the same time, the teacher will ask for her daughter Leilani to respond to a question and her boss will ask, "Dekeda, what do you think?"

Brian: Dekeda?

Dekeda: The biggest story of my life has been the multitask. I feel like an octopus at the dining room table with like all of my hands are in something and at the end of the day, listen, I love my husband dearly, but at the end of the day really early on in this, he came home and he had a rough day at work and he says-- We got into a back and forth and he says, "You get to stay home all day and I had to leave today," and I was like, "What? Are you kidding me?" [laughs] It was such-- I had to tell him, "Yes, I get up and throw on some sweats and go down to the table, but you don't see what I'm doing. This is hard." It is hard every day and I don't know, I just feel like the mental toll, I don't feel it yet completely but when this is all over, I need a vacation somewhere. Jessica and I-- Jessica, where are we going?

Jessica: [laughs] Oh man, somewhere warm.

Brian: Unless the pandemic ends in July, but we don't even want to think about it taking that long, right?

Dekeda: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: Lisa in Forest Hills. Lisa, you're on WNYC, thank you for calling in.

Lisa: Hey, thank you for taking my call. I almost hang up because I'm mortified to be saying what I'm about to say. I own a small business, I've worked from home since before the pandemic, I'm the mother of a 10th grader who's handling remote learning very well, but during this and hearing these stories for the past almost year, I started to come to the conclusion that we just can't do it all, at least not this way. I feel like we're trying to put a round peg into a square hole, so to speak. Things weren't that great before.

I think mothers who worked in a man's world and with the rules of the man's world, children were suffering and now, we're suffering financially but children were suffering, I believe, psychologically by not having the moms around as much. Now, we're just seeing it monetarily, but I think-- Obviously, I'm not saying women shouldn't work, but I don't think-- It doesn't work this way and now it's all coming to a head because of responsibilities that we have and I can't stress enough, I feel embarrassed to be saying this, but I really just don't think it-- It doesn't work. [chuckles]

Brian: Gender editor at large for the Times, Jessica Bennett, you might have something to say to Lisa.

Jessica: Yes. Lisa, I think that what you're expressing is what a lot of people are thinking, and there's no shame in it. This crisis has exposed that idea of balance for the lie that it is. This idea of doing it all or having it all, these are cliches at this point, but in a pandemic, it's an absolute farce. This has exposed just how frayed our social system is when it comes to supporting parents and working parents. There's the idea that as one of our experts that we interviewed said, we understand that you need a bridge to physically get to work, but you need childcare to work as well and we don't have the systems in place that are providing that right now.

I think there's a reckoning that we're having. As soon as we have the mental capacity or time to even think about it, where we really have to think about systems and structures and how we do or don't support working parents in this country.

Brian: Sonia in Bed-Stuy, you're on WNYC. Hi, Sonia, thanks for calling in.

Sonia: Hi, good morning, Brian. Thank you for your service to our community and thank you for this topic. I just wanted to share that I'm a mental health counselor at children of promise WNYC in Bed-Stuy and I work with the mom group, the caregiver group, and they are all parents who have been impacted by mass incarceration. We are dealing with a lot, and I want to share some of our tips that we've come up with as a group. Firstly, having a group of other moms to destress, to get our feelings out, to talk about stuff is so important, just one hour a week, and to bond and give each other strength and hope and talk about how we hit out in the bathtub for an hour. [chuckles]

The second thing I wanted to share is just lower the expectations. Don't worry about the grades, they may not log in every day on time, just, we got to take it easy on ourselves, give ourselves a break. This is an unusual extreme experience we've had for a long time and we just need to just do what we need to do to get by, focus on getting through the day and we're doing a great job, mom.

Brian: Sonia, thanks for the pep talk on behalf of all the moms who would have heard it. Dekeda, do you relate to that suggestion, lower the expectations?

Dekeda: I absolutely do because I see what that does for me when I lower those expectations. I used to say, we were not going to eat out during the week, we're going to wait until the weekends to eat out because that's not necessary, I can cook. We eat out. I tell my husband sometimes when I'm feeling like I just can't get everything done including dinner, I say, "I need you to handle dinner" and that means getting Chinese food and that's what it is. I am a bit of a neat freak but when it comes to the clean-- I'm constantly cleaning, that's one thing I really can't let go of. The grades, I tether a very thin line when it comes to my daughters. I'm like, "These grades need to come up," but then the other part of me says, "She's doing her best in a pandemic. What is wrong with you, woman?" Then I feel guilty. Like the first caller said, it's like that guilt is there that do I need to push more? We are at home and there shouldn't be any distractions. Should I be pushing her more, or should I let up more? It's a constant struggle.

Brian: One more call, then we'll get into the Biden COVID Relief Bill policy piece, and what's in it, and what's not in it. Vanessa in Brooklyn. You're on WNYC. Hi, Vanessa. Thank you for calling in.

Vanessa: Thank you for having me. I was calling today to talk about my perspective as a single mom and the impossible decisions that are being made right now. I have a nine-year-old and a 20-month-old. My nine-year-old has special needs and I'm a single mom. It's just been an incredible amount of impossible decisions than what I prioritize in terms of safety versus mental health safety. It's constantly a battle of whether or not I'm making the right decision.

My nine-year-old was having such a terrible time staying at home and really was missing out on the really important social, emotional growth that's important at this time. For me, I think every day, and for a lot of parents like me who do work full-time, who are single moms, it's that constant feeling of making the best scenario out of a worst-case scenario and making, really, all those hard decisions.

I really empathize with a lot of parents that have decided to put their kids back in school or to take that risk because of the other impossible decisions they have to make, whether that's staying at home and losing out on that financial gain, or if it's sending their kids back to school and risking the very real risk of COVID too. That's really what I've been grappling with here, and at home. Every day it's another decision that I would rather not make.

Brian: Any piece of advice for other single parents out there regarding something you did that worked, like, "Hey, I'd like to share this?"

Vanessa: I guess for me, it's really giving yourself a lot of grace. Everything is so hard and there are so many opinions and there's so much noise. Really, at the end of the day, you have to prioritize the best situation for your family and know that you are doing the best you can and that you're prioritizing your needs and your needs may look a lot different from the mom next door or the parents next door.

For me, it was just taking that moment and giving yourself a lot of grace and understanding that this an exceptional time. We're in the middle of a pandemic, I have to say that to myself every day, 10 times a day. To say, you're doing the best you can, and there is an actual pandemic happening. Business as usual doesn't exist as we know it right now. I think, for me, it's just keeping that in mind and giving myself a lot of grace.

Brian: Vanessa, you're a hero. Thank you very much for calling in. Since Vanessa called in as a single mom, can we give a little bit of love for a minute to the single dads out there too who also exist? I'm going to take Renato in Manhasset next. Renato, you're on WNYC. Hi, there.

Renato: Hi Brian, and good morning to everyone. Thank you for taking my call. I'm very glad to hear of the initiative and the thoughts that are being discussed. Through the years I've been a single father for about eight, nine years now with two daughters. I know what it's like to be a single father, the struggle, the disappointments, the lack of thinking you're doing the best you can.

I can't help, but I get incensed over the years where there's support for single mothers, which is absolutely justifiable, but very little for single fathers. Although it's a much smaller group of people, when you take into account single father has to be at heterosexual or homosexual men, I don't feel there's the same support discussion and consideration to that.

I also think in terms of making something happen like this, it's an opportunity to talk about parents, single parents, in general, no matter what the gender or sexual orientation is to empower the argument and make it much more of an all-encompassing, suggestion.

Brian: Yes, when we talk about single parents. That's fair, Jessica, right?

Jessica: Absolutely. We know statistically, that single parents are being disproportionately affected in this pandemic no matter their gender

Brian: We'll get into the policy issues, what's in the Biden Relief Bill with respect to all of this, what should be in it that's not, right after this.

[music]

Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC with Jessica Bennett from the Times gender and culture desk. One of the editors on The Primal Scream package of articles that dropped last night. Her article is called, Three American Mothers, On the Brink. Of course, it's about moms in the pandemic. One of the moms she profiled, Dekeda Brown, is also with us. Jessica, let me get into some of these policy issues with you.

I assume you've seen The Marshall Project for Moms full-page ad in the Times calling for $2,400 a month temporary payment to moms depending on income while the pandemic economy rages. You heard Press Secretary Jen Psaki's response to it that we played a little while ago on behalf of the president and the Biden bill does have three months of paid second family leave and a childcare tax credit up to $8,000, depending on your income. Does the Relief Bill as it exists center moms in the right way, in your opinion, or that of people you interview for your articles?

Jessica: I think it is trying very hard to put families and working parents at the center. This idea of a Marshall Plan for Moms is amazing. If moms could get a $2,500 cheque every month from the government, that would be incredible, but how do you actually get that done? The Senate endorsed Biden's $1.9 trillion stimulus package just before sunrise this morning with vice-president Harris as the tiebreaker.

It does include things like extending unemployment, which you mentioned, extending paid leave to around three months, continuing a moratorium on evictions. There's a one-time check of $1,400 available for those who meet certain thresholds. There are components about reopening schools within the first 100 days, which, of course, is the way that so many parents rely on childcare. I think that's one of the things that we've realized here, is that school is a huge way that many parents are able to find childcare and get to work each day.

Brian: Dekeda, it looks like you and your husband are both working if I read the article correctly. Is the government stimulus check the best way that they can help you? Do you think about other policy items that are needed in general?

Dekeda: I believe so. I agree wholeheartedly with what Jessica says. Although we are both working, having that help outside of the home is so key, so important, not only for the development of the children, but for the parents to be able to do what they need to do and get their work done and have space to breathe and, of course, under circumstances where everything is safe. I think that that stimulus plan would be excellent. I'd love to see that the administration is on the right path with that. I'm happy just to learn more about it.

Brian: Jessica, one of the articles in the Times Primal Screen package is by Claire Cain Miller and has sections on how employers, government, and individuals could help. Starting with government, it notes the Biden plan features that we just talked about, but it also notes that Sweden, for example, gives up to 16 months of childcare leave usable until a child is eight, not just the baby. That was before the pandemic. It also recommends social security credits for unpaid caregivers, which usually means stay at home moms, and offer tax credits to businesses that rehire moms. Like those ideas?

Jessica: Yes, I sure do like those ideas. It also provides four months of sick leave to take care of children up to age 12. These are benefits that we do not have in this country, that the government does not provide for us. I think in a lot of ways for at least white-collar workers, they've in turn relied on companies to provide them with these sorts of services. That's really not the way to create an equitable system. There are some companies who have tried to fill these gaps, offering flexible schedules or part-time schedules, paying for childcare, or offering stipends to reimburse for childcare. There are a few companies doing pretty interesting things, but these are the minority.

Brian: Just one piece of political analysis before you go, Jessica. I know you're not a Washington correspondent, but if you have a sense of this, is the Marshall Plan for Moms' per se, the $2400 a month for moms during the pandemic and depending on income a non-starter in Washington despite thousands of signatures on that petition, do you know?

Jessica: Well, I'll caveat this by saying I have not asked the administration but from what I understand, this is like a very lofty idea that would be incredible to have, but I don't believe there is a path currently making its way in the political system.

Brian: Jessica Bennett, Dekeda Brown, thank you so much for coming on with us. Listeners, I guess that's going to be in the magazine, the print edition on Sunday. Is that where it's going to show up in print?

Jessica: It'll be in the newspaper, special section. You can pull it out.

Brian: Special section on Sunday. It's online now, the package called, The Primal Scream. Dekeda and Jessica, thank you so much.

Dekeda: Thank you for having us.

Jessica: Thank you.

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