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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Here's one program note, next Saturday, which is 9/11, will mark 20 years since the terrorist attacks that changed New York and the world, and I will be hosting live coverage on that Saturday morning, next week, September 11th for a live call-in special. We will listen to portions of the ceremony that will be taking place live next Saturday morning, we'll talk with guests and we'll take your calls.

Then as the day goes on, WNYC will continue with September 11th anniversary programming, beginning with the investigative documentary Blind Spot, the road to 9/11. That's all a week from Saturday, September 11th, starting at 8:35 in the morning here on WNYC and wnyc.org.

This is WNYC-FM HD and AM New York, WNJT-FM, 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are on New York and New Jersey public radio. Coming up, Michael Hill will join us from the WNYC newsroom and give us the latest on the storm cleanup and unfortunately, rising death toll from last night. We'll also take a deeper look later this hour at how climate change is causing some areas like ours to become much wetter and other areas of the United States and the world to become much drier. How could the same underlying forest be doing both of those opposite things? We'll talk to Matt Simon science writer from WIRED about that coming up.

Right now, if you're one of the 7 million Americans who have been receiving expanded unemployment benefits during the pandemic, that will end on Monday when the federal program expires. It's a weird way to wish people happy Labor Day, it expires on Labor Day these unemployment benefits. That means if you live in our immediate listening area, the amount you receive in unemployment will be reduced by $300 a week going back to what it was pre-pandemic, a maximum of about $500 in New York and $700 a week in New Jersey.

Other things that will go away include more tax requirements for who qualifies, I should say, more lax requirements for who qualifies for unemployment. That'll become stricter again. Under the March 2020 stimulus plan, gig workers and freelancers were included for the first time. Yay. The length of time you can continually receive benefits will also shrink. The cutoff will go back to 26 weeks.

Now, president Biden and his treasury department have heard states with stubbornly high unemployment, and guess what, New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut are all in that category to prolong the program using pandemic aid dollars but so far no states have taken that step and come next week, the program ends everywhere.

With me now to talk about what the end of the pandemic unemployment benefits means for you and to take some of your questions about your own situations, if you have any, is Richard Blum an attorney with the Legal Aid Societies, employment law unit. Richard, welcome back to WNYC. Thank you so much for coming on today. The times that you came on early in the pandemic when people didn't know how to collect those new unemployment benefits were so helpful to so many callers. Thank you for coming back on at this transition point.

Richard Blum: Thank you for having me and especially on a such a news day sitting in this issue.

Brian Lehrer: Ultimately, was it a successful program from your vantage point?

Richard Blum: Well, the federal programs were enormously successful. There were vast numbers of people who got benefits who wouldn't have gotten anything at all. There were people who were kept afloat by the additional benefits during times when there was no opportunity for employment. Then as the economic impact of the pandemic continued far beyond, I think what many people thought, people were able to hold onto their benefits during periods of high unemployment despite the wishful thinking of a lot of people that somehow the economy was just going to bounce back which did not happen.

Brian Lehrer: As I mentioned in the intro, the Biden administration has called on states to use emergency Coronavirus funds to keep the program going but so far, no state has said they would go that far, mostly because the money has been earmarked for other projects and programs already. New Jersey, Governor Phil Murphy has flat out said the benefits will expire at the end of this week, but I don't think Governor Hochul has explicitly said as much and is under pressure from Progressives to find the money, to keep the program going.

Your focus is New York state. Do you think she's just planning to let the program quietly expire this weekend or is she going through a process?

Richard Blum: Well, I know that it won't be quietly, that there are a lot of worker organizations, unions that are making quite a noise about this and bringing these issues to the forefront. Whether or not, the ARPA money as it's called the American Rescue Plan Act money is used for this purpose, the state has the authority to legislatively change our program so that people can continue to get what's called extended benefits.

This wouldn't help the people who are on pandemic unemployment assistance, but for people who are in regular unemployment and haven't used up their extended benefits. People who are on the federal extended benefits, but haven't used the state, what is normally a state extended benefits program, that could continue. It would just have to be at 50% state funding, which funding could come from the ARPA funds or could be borrowed from the federal trust funds. We wouldn't have to pay it right now.

Of course, it's actually one of the few forms of deficits spending that the state is permitted to do, which is a really smart thing to do when your unemployment rate is as high as New York's, which is, I think about 7.7%. In the city, it's over 10% right now. It's also very high.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, do you have any question about your own unemployment insurance situation for Richard Blum from legal aid? 646-435-7280. 646-435-7280. Do you have anything to

add?

Richard Blum: Brian, can I just add one point which is [unintelligible 00:06:41] New Jersey and Connecticut are going to continue to provide extended benefits. They're not going to have the federal money to do it, but both of our neighboring states, New Jersey and Connecticut will be continuing extended benefits-

[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: I have to apologize for an error in my intro copy. I had other information. Explain that difference a little more between what will continue in New Jersey and Connecticut and what will not in New York as of now.

Richard Blum: For people who are eligible for regular UI will not help the people who are just on pandemic assistance only but for people who are eligible for regular unemployment, they will continue to get up to 13 weeks of extended benefits that will not cut off suddenly because the federal funding is ending. The federal funding is ending, it goes back to a 50:50 program and New Jersey is continuing it as a 50:50 program. Connecticut has it as a permanent program, so it will continue there as well. It's the funding that's changing.

Brian Lehrer: New unemployment claims have now sunk below the 350,000 level in New York. I think that just came out today. That's the lowest weekly unemployment claim figure since mid-March, 2020. More people are going back to work than are newly being laid off. How does that compare to pre-pandemic levels just to give our listeners a sense of the ongoing need?

Richard Blum: I don't remember the numbers pre-pandemic. [unintelligible 00:08:09] I don't remember pre-pandemic at this point but it's vastly above what we were at before the pandemic vastly. The need is enormous. Also, we have to remember that that figure includes people who have gone back to work or people who have given up on trying. There are a lot of people who have withdrawn from the labor market because of care needs, or because of illness, because of death.

If you're taking care of sick people in the household, if you're taking care of children who up till now haven't been able to go to school, we'll see what happens with the school reopening, you may not be able to go back into the labor market, in which case you won't be counted. The numbers go down for new claims, but that doesn't mean that the problem isn't there.

Brian Lehrer: Though on a policy level, I guess two things are happening. At least two things. There is persistent unemployment in the New York area that's higher in the country at large pandemic related but at the same time, we've done segments about so many jobs going unfilled because people don't want to take them either because unemployment benefits in the expanded and extended way has made their lives easy enough, or for other reasons, like they just consider it, coronavirus dangerous to work in retail.

Richard Blum: Well, there are people for whom, it certainly poses a serious risk to their health still and there's an issue there about whether the state is ever going to implement the New York HERO Act, which is supposed to create workplace safety rules with respect to the Coronavirus and COVID. That hasn't happened yet. That's in the governor's hands. It could happen tomorrow, it could happen today but they haven't done it yet. It requires the state department of health to designate COVID-19 to be a highly contagious disease that poses a serious risk of harm to the public health though they haven't done it yet. That's one factor. There is risk at the job.

Another again is people who've withdrawn from the labor market and now they're going to lose their PUA. It's also the case that sure if you provide some safety net to people, it gives them some bargaining power. Someone wrote [unintelligible 00:10:10] the other day saying, "Look, I was a server and it's really nice not to actually experience sexual harassment and a sub-minimum wage every single day." That's bargaining power for workers especially in a time when unions are so much under attack is really critical.

The other point is that states that cut off the benefits earlier did not see an increase in employment. They actually have lagged behind the states that have continued unemployment benefits because money in the economy, this is money that goes right into the economy. It's an extremely effective countercyclical measure, it pumps money into the economy, businesses flourish. It's good for the business community to have the unemployment benefits continue.

Brian Lehrer: Just to further clarify or further confuse the New Jersey situation. This is from the New York Times on Tuesday, the governor Phil Murphy said at a news conference that he had decided to let three federal assistance programs expire because it would cost the state millions of dollars to preserve them. I think that relates to these extended unemployment benefits. Do you know otherwise? Or should we just leave this unresolved for the moment?

Richard Blum: What I've been told is, yes, the Federal part is ending so PEUC which is the federal extended benefits is ending but ED, which is a state program like unemployment insurance, which is 50% funded out of a state trust fund and 50% funded out of the federal trust fund under normal circumstances, had been paid 100% of the federal trust fund for a while, that is ending this week. My understanding is that New Jersey is not only continuing the program as it used to be 50:50, but also transferring people who are on the PEUC onto ED. There is some extension happening in New Jersey from what I've been told, as of this morning, at least.

[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Let me a few calls for you and maybe you can give some people some advice. My guest is Richard Blom, an unemployment insurance expert from the Legal Aid Society and Ron, in the Bronx with many of these federal benefits, pandemic related expiring on Labor Day. Ron, you're on WNYC, hi.

Ron: Hi, how you doing? I would like to know, I've been receiving unemployment insurance since the pandemic began. I just want to know, will I still receive regular unemployment benefits after Labor Day?

Brian Lehrer: Richard, can you answer?

Richard Blum: If you're receiving regular unemployment benefits, you're not on pandemic unemployment assistance, but regular UI. I've lost track of the total number of weeks since last March this covered but you are eligible for originally 26 weeks of regular UI, then an additional 13 weeks of PEUC, that got extended, I don't remember the numbers exactly and then people were eligible for extended benefits beyond that.

I don't know in your specific case, you'd have to check with the [unintelligible 00:13:12] to see at what point those numbers run out but if you're on extended benefits, currently, unless the state decides to continue the program, which it hasn't yet, the benefits will end after this week.

Now, one thing I do want to mention is that for anyone who did get some work in the meantime, they may have accrued enough earnings to be eligible for a new year of unemployment benefit starting from scratch, it'll just be probably a much lower rate because your earnings probably will not have been nearly as high. You should keep that in mind if you had any earnings during the past year.

Brian Lehrer: Ron, I hope that's helpful. We'll stay in the Bronx. Julie in the Bronx, you're on w NYC with Richard Blum from Legal Aid. Hi, Julie.

Julie: Hi, Brian, thanks for taking my call. I'm a teacher, my school actually closed June of 2020. I was laid off and I've been on unemployment benefits, I have had also regular unemployment, I had the pandemic. I think I'm on my extended benefits now. I think I'm at the end of that but I'm also a long hauler. I mounted an intense job search campaign and actually had to decline a great job that was offered to me because I'm just in no shape to be able to leave the house on a regular basis.

I'm trying to figure out what happens to people like me whose unemployment has run out but are essentially disabled by COVID. Can I apply for disability? What do I do? I can't earn a living right now.

Richard Blum: Well, I'm not a disability benefits expert but yes, you probably should call up legal services, Legal Aid and find out if you might be eligible for disability benefits. It's possible through your past employment, there might be something available, but I doubt that but probably, you should consult with someone about Social Security disability benefits.

Brian Lehrer: I hope that's helpful, Julie. Missy in Queens, you're on w NYC. Hi, Missy.

Missy: Hi, thank you, Richard, for coming today. I think you already answered my question, because I was unemployed as of January 2020 so then ran into the pandemic on my regular unemployment and we have switched to pandemic unemployment. Luckily, I did have some freelance, but I don't think it was enough like you're saying where I can have another unemployment one, but maybe I'll try that but I have to go back and look at all the weeks.

Richard Blum: Yes, but also freelancing work will not count toward eligibility for unemployment benefits now, that was only true as long as the PUA program existed, which was just for the pandemic and is ending this week. It's only work that should be classified, whether it was misclassified, or not is a different question, but should have been classified as basically W2 work that counts toward your eligibility for unemployment. Now, people are misclassified, employers do put them down as freelancers when they're not.

One of the things about the gig workers is that New York State, the law is that those workers should be considered employees under the unemployment insurance law, the courts have ruled on this and the state should be going after Uber, Lyft, and so forth, Postmates, for all the money they owe to the trust fund. If you look at the kind of money that they owe to the trust fund, that kind of money could fund an extension of extended benefits for people.

The state again, I just want to make the point that the state could, in a heartbeat, the legislature [unintelligible 00:16:53] could sign a law that says that we will continue the extended Benefits Program so people would least get up to 13 more weeks of unemployment benefits beyond the regular.

Brian Lehrer: Those are policy questions. I guess, one of the big takeaways, maybe the biggest, although obviously different people are affected in different ways, is that for all these freelancers and gig workers, the sudden right that they got during the pandemic to get unemployment benefits is going to go away on Labor Day?

Richard Blum: The gig workers legally are entitled to unemployment insurance. In fact, there was litigation in the federal court during the pandemic, which established that the New York State Department of Labor was supposed to review about 40,000 drivers' claims to reclassify them as unemployment insurance instead of PUA. They are employees under New York law, the employers don't treat them that way, that is illegal, they are illegally misclassifying people. The fact that your employer is illegally misclassifying you, doesn't mean that the state shouldn't be providing you with the benefits. Gig workers in New York should mostly be continuing to get or should be getting unemployment insurance, if you're not you should be calling Legal Aid about that.

Brian Lehrer: One more. Amanda in Summit, you're on WNYC. Hi, Amanda.

Amanda: Hi, how are you? I've been struggling to get through the phone lines or any email for probably the last three or four months, and I've been unable to collect any unemployment. My question is, what number can I call? What representative can I email? How can I actually get someone to look at my claim and figure this out? Because it seems impossible.

Brian Lehrer: You're in New Jersey, right?

Amanda: Correct.

Richard Blum: Which state is it?

Brian: New Jersey.

Richard Blum: I am sorry, I don't have information about New Jersey. I only practice in New York so I don't know the best way to get into the system there. I would call a legal services office and ask them.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, you could call legal aid in your state or another legal services group. Richard Blum is from Legal Aid so we know that group, at least in New York State deals with exactly these issues. Maybe there's a local branch. Should people who are having all kinds of frustrations like Amanda was just describing getting the system to respond in normal ways, call their elected officials, is that an avenue for anybody?

Richard Blum: Yes. People should call their elected officials about that, or if their benefits are ending, because they actually have it in their power to extend many of these benefits. If they extended the extended benefit program about half a million people would benefit from that. If that's what you're facing right now, call your legislator and let them know that you're not happy.

Brian Lehrer: Richard Blum, attorney with the Legal Aid Societies Employment Law Unit in New York. Thank you so much for all this. We really appreciate it.

Richard Blum: Thank you.

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