Brian Lehrer: With the US Open Tennis Finals coming up in Queens this weekend, and the star of the tournament, as far as the crowds have been concerned, being 19-year-old, Leylah Fernandez of Canada, who shocked everyone by coming out of nowhere and defeating Naomi Osaka, and Angelique Kerber, and other established stars to make it to the finals. As it happened, she will play someone even younger than her, 18-year-old Emma Raducanu from the UK. It's Leylah who has really won the live audiences' hearts.

A little tennis news there, if you haven't been following the Open. The calling question for you now is really based on the experience of Naomi Osaka, one of the best in the world, who Leylah Fernandez beat. Osaka says she may take a break from tennis for a while, partly, because she's been feeling relief, not joy when she wins. Here's Osaka after that Fernandez match.

Naomi Osaka: I feel like, for me, recently, when I win, I don't feel happy, I feel more like a relief. Then, when I lose, I feel very sad, and I don't think that's normal.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe it is normal. It's certainly understandable. I wonder, and this is the call in question, if there are listeners right now who identify with Naomi Osaka for that, specifically, if you're really good at something, do you ever feel so much pressure from your peers, or the wider world to produce, that you only feel relief rather than happiness when you do succeed? 646-435-7280.

Again, if you’re really good at something, or there are high expectations on you about something, because you've succeeded in the past, do you ever feel so much pressure to produce and succeed that you only feel relief rather than joy or happiness when you do succeed? Has this ever happened to you? 646-435-7280.

I was really struck by poor Naomi Osaka, who's gone through something, saying it's not normal. I think it is normal, at least common enough that people can say, "Me too," to some degree. 646-435-7280. This can be if you're in sports, but it can be in your office job. It can be as a parent, it can be anything. Let's give some love and support to Naomi Osaka by telling a few stories of your own, if you identify with that kind of pressure. 646-435-7080.

Personally, I hope that Osaka, who is still very young herself, finds a way to deal with and conquer this, and can return to tennis with some joy. What about that aspect for you? If you have lost a sense of joy from something you're good at because of expectations and pressure, did you get it back? How did you get it back, or did you really just need to move on to other things and give up that pursuit? 646-435-7280.

I'll throw in one other thought here, the opposite. We're going to play Leylah Fernandez here, because as a contrast, yes, here's somebody who might win the US Open this year, but because she's so young and has never been here before, she's not feeling the same kind of pressure as somebody who's supposed to win. The difference in tone in Leylah's voice compared to Naomi's, listen.

Leylah Fernandez: I would say it's thanks to the New York crowd. They've helped me today. They cheered for me.

[crowd cheering]

They never gave up. They never gave up for me. They fought for me, and thanks to you, I was able to win. Thank you, New York. Thanks everyone for cheering for me.

[crowd cheering]

Brian Lehrer: Yay, love Leylah, I love watching her play, but she's got the luxury of low expectations. I will throw in this Garrett Cole clip, the Yankees' best pitcher, when he came to the team last year with the expectations that he would be the best pitcher. He said this.

Garrett Cole: Pressure is a privilege. Pressure comes in situations that you've earned. You pitch in big games in September and October because you've played well all year.

Brian Lehrer: Pressure is a privilege, but pressure is also pressure, and people handle it differently. There's Garrett Cole, and right now there's Naomi Osaka. 646-435-7280. Have you ever been in her position? We'll take your calls after this.

[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC and in support of Naomi Osaka to your calls on, if you're really good at something, do you ever feel so much pressure to produce that you only feel relief rather than joy when you do succeed? Ben in Queens, you're on WNYC. Hi, Ben.

Ben: Hi, Brian. How are you?

Brian Lehrer: Good. What you got for us?

Ben: First time caller, long time listener.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

Ben: I'm a huge fan.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

Ben: I am a professional musician and I've been marginally successful. I performed with multi-Grammy winning musicians and ensembles around the world. I have experienced that very same things that Naomi Osaka does, where you-- There's actually a term for it, it's called imposter syndrome, where you don't necessarily believe that you're successful, regardless of how successful you are.

It also somewhat has to do with how we're socialized in the United States from a very young age to equate success with monetary success. That somewhat bleeds into the things that we enjoy. Obviously, so I became a professional musician because I love music. Same thing--

Brian Lehrer: How have you dealt with it? How have you gotten beyond it to still experience happiness when you play well, if you have?

Ben: One thing that I did, which, obviously, when you enter into the professional circuit, it's difficult because that's where your primary income is from. I began saying, no, to every gig, every performance, especially, if it paid too little and I didn't want to do it. Then, in the inverse, the gigs that I really wanted to do, and no matter how much it paid, even if it was $40, I would say, yes, because of the people who I was doing it with, and that increased my enjoyment,- [sound cut]

Brian Lehrer: Oh, it's starting to break up.

Ben: -it made me feel like-- Oh, sorry.

Brian Lehrer: All right. I think we're losing Ben's line, but I think he made his point. Ben, thank you for a good start. Danielle in Maplewood, you're on WNYC. Hi, Danielle.

Danielle: Hi, Brian. I completely identify with Naomi Osaka and the previous caller regarding imposter syndrome. At the age of 44, I decided to go back to school, and I am now halfway done getting my master's in public health. As an adult, it wasn't an important to me in high school or college, but it's really important for me to get all A's, to the extent that I get really stressed out, and my professors tell me, "It really doesn't matter what you get in grad school," but I'm very fixated, maybe obsessed about getting it because I figure, here I am doing the thing that I want to do, so I can move further in my career and anything left--[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: When you get those A's, do you at least feel a sense of satisfaction?

Danielle: A little bit, but anything less, I get pretty upset. I don't want to blame my mother for this, but when I was in high school, we never got rewarded for getting all A's. She basically said, "No, I expect that you're best." No one's going to care that I have a 4.0 GPA when I graduate. For me it's very, very important and I wish it wasn't.

Brian Lehrer: The expectation came from your mother, and then the expectation was internalized. I guess, when you're in the public eye, like a performer or an athlete who's famous, and succeeds a lot, then you have the sense that the world expects you to as well, and there's another layer. Diana in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Diana.

Diana: Hi. How are you? I have to answer your question. I feel, yes, I have been in a situation that was very, very high pressure with a huge expectation to succeed and very public. I'm a teacher now. I was a TV director before, but before that, I directed live theater. If you succeed or fail, it's in front of a lot of people. When opening night went off perfectly, it was a relief, but it was exhilarating.

It wasn't only belief. If that's all this young woman is feeling, then I think it's right for her to step back and deal with that. Another thing about tennis versus the team sports, so she's really all by herself, and she's 23. I have so much feeling for what she's going through. She's also Black and Asian biracial, so much stuff is going on that she is carrying by herself, even if was not a celebrity or an athlete, just being Asian right now and Black right now, since last year, it's been so difficult.

Now, she's got to perform, now she's got to be at the top of her game, and several million people are looking at her with expectations, not just her parents, but millions of Americans. You got to go get gold for America, and my heart just breaks for her with that amounts of pressure on her head at that age. I look at the Williams sisters, they had [unintelligible 00:11:02] Yes, they were Black in a sport that was just very new for people that looked like them to be exceeding it.

Naomi Osaka is all by herself, and I think the amount of press she's gotten, ESPN reporters, sports reporters who are much, much less sensitive than you are being with this conversation we're having, they've been pretty brutal.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, I know.

Diana: I think, we really have to be sympathetic. This last year and a half with COVID and George Floyd, it's really hard on young people of color.

Brian Lehrer: Absolutely.

Diana: When I win, I win at that age, it was exhilarating, it was a relief and it was exhilarating. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Both of those things.

Diana: If I was with a team of actors and designers, but it was still a team, and I wasn't all by myself.

Brian Lehrer: Let's hope she finds a way and that the world supports her in finding a way to get back to that relief and exhilaration. Thank you for your call, Diane. I really appreciate it. Rajendran in Union, you're on WNYC. Hello Rajendran.

Rajendran: Hi, Brian. I'm a first time caller again.

Brian Lehrer: Glad you're on.

Rajendran: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: What'd you got?

Rajendran: Go ahead.

Brian Lehrer: No, you go. Have you had a similar experience?

Rajendran: Oh yes, absolutely. I've been a journalist for many years, and about a few years ago, I started a site called trulycurious.com. It's essentially, I'm getting a bunch of researchers to talk about their research or interviewing other researchers. My job is to rewrite into simple language, and it's not always possible for me to do it effectively. After I once I finally published the article, I just am exhausted and relieved. There's nothing more I feel. If that makes sense.

Brian Lehrer: Have you worked through that at all and gotten back to a sense more of happiness from doing something that obviously sounds like it's important to you?

Rajendran: No, it is important to me because, I've done this-- As I said, I was a journalist, but I also teach psychology, and I want to get the idea of resource across to people in an accessible language. That's important to me, but it's rewriting articles, while it is done, it was-- At one time my office used to always give me stuff to rewrite, some of my colleagues have spoken about this quite often. Now, it's a little exhausting, but I'm [unintelligible 00:13:44] it in of course. It is tiring.

Brian Lehrer: There's another word that should enter this conversation, which is exhaustion. If you go through something over and over again, and it's not satisfying, especially, if it comes from outside expectations, it can be exhausting. We've heard that word in political and social justice context in recent years, for sure. Sarah in Fishkill, you're on WNYC. Hi Sarah?

Sarah: Hi, Brian. I relate a lot to this because I'm an emerging artist and I was starting to get a lot of opportunities and awards, but I became so overwhelmed by expectations that I found it to be really debilitating. I took some time off and just worked some other jobs to see whether I'd miss it, and had to just start back into it slowly to experience again what ways it gave me joy.

Brian Lehrer: What did you find?

Sarah: I reconnected with what really inspired me and excited me in the beginning. I just tried to focus instead on feedback from people that had truly supported me. I just had to pretend that I am making this only for myself, and I'm making this only for myself, and just really focus on that because that's when the work was successful.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you so much, what a great call. Sarah, thank for your call. That's maybe one way back, a partial way back for some people. Remember that you're doing it for yourself, and maybe that's a helpful bit of advice for anybody who finds themselves in that position. We'll close with this tweet from a listener in New Jersey who writes, "I empathize with feeling relief and view of joy at times helps to take a break, a breath."

As Biggie would say, "Only make moves when your heart is in it. Also, teaching can offer joy from a new perspective, upon reaching a peak turn around and lend a hand, so another can join you". Thank you for that tweet and thanks to all of your calls. Good luck, Naomi, finding it again, and getting back or walking away if you have too, and good luck to all the players in the final this weekend.

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