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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Now we conclude our annual series of interviews with the creators of the five Oscar-nominated feature-length documentaries. While much of the media focuses on best actor and actress, or the big hit films, Barbie, Oppenheimer, whatever, our attention tends more to the non-fiction side of things, the documentaries. We've spoken with the creators of Bobi Wine: The People's President, about an opposition leader in Uganda. Four Daughters, about a mother and her daughters in Tunisia, The Eternal Memory, about personal and societal remembering and forgetting in Chile, and 20 Days in Mariupol yesterday about the Russian invasion of that Ukrainian city.

Like the other four films in this category, today's is set in a country that's not the United States. India. To Kill a Tiger is the name of the film. It's not about hunting a feline predator, but about a father's devotion to his daughter and his almost unprecedented fight to bring to justice in court the three men who abducted and sexually assaulted her. To Kill a Tiger was written and directed by Nisha Pahuja, and she joins us to talk about the family's journey and her own as a filmmaker. Welcome back to WNYC. Thank you so much for coming on, Nisha.

Nisha Pahuja: Thank you for having me, Brian. Lovely to be here.

Brian Lehrer: I wonder if to start, you could tell us what we should know about where this took place. You don't specify the name of the village to protect the family, but it's in the state of Jharkhand in Eastern India. Can you help set the scene?

Nisha Pahuja: Yes. exactly. It takes place in the state of Jharkhand in a region called a barrow, which is a collection of a number of villages. This particular community, it's roughly about a population of 2,000. They are primarily Adivasis, which is tribals. They belong to the tribal community of India. As you say, the film follows the struggle for justice. It's a real David and Goliath story about a man who takes on the fight of his life after his child is sexually assaulted by three men. The community that he hails from is demanding that he marry her to one of her rapists in order to preserve the community honor and the family honor. He and his wife and his incredibly brave 13-year-old child seek justice and ultimately are incredibly victorious.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Again, the crime at the center of the film is so horrific. In 2017, a 13-year-old girl goes to a family wedding and stays late with her friends, but is abducted and sexually assaulted by three young men. While in the course of the film, we hear some of the details. It's not really the focus of the story. It's more about the stand of the girl's father supporting her determination to seek justice in the courts. Why did you decide to take that particular angle on it?

Nisha Pahuja: Well, it's interesting because this particular story, it wasn't a story that I was seeking. The interesting thing about documentaries is when you're in the field, stories actually have a way of finding you. I feel that this story found me. It was I just happened to be at the right place at the right time and was able to follow this family as they struggle and reach for justice.

When I began the project, when I was actually in the field of filming, the film that I was trying to make was a film that was looking at masculinity. I guess in some sense it was a broader project, maybe even I would say potentially maybe even an essay film. I was following the work of an organization called The Center for Health and Social Justice, and they were running with partner organizations. They were running a gender sensitization program across the state of Jharkhand in 30 villages. They were working with men and boys and doing really extensive gender sensitization training. They worked with them for three and a half years.

My idea was to track the work of the NGO and film with some of these men and boys that were in this program. It turns out that Ranjit, the father, was somebody that was taking part in this gender sensitization program. Then this happened to his child and I began to track the story, really not knowing where it was going to go, or what was going to happen, but just one foot in front of the other just following the family.

Brian Lehrer: There is also a broader, we might call it national critique. In this story, you've cited the statistic that there is a rape every 20 minutes in India, most unreported. You include some of the news accounts of this case, including a woman commentator asking, "Is there something fundamentally wrong with our country?'' Is that one of the questions that you wanted to answer? Is there something you were trying to say about India in particular because obviously, rape happens in every country?

Nisha Pahuja: No. I put it out there because those were the headlines. Those were the things that were-

Brian Lehrer: People were saying that.

Nisha Pahuja: -being talked about. I think for me, when I think about that question-- And there's no denying the issue of violence against women in India, there's no denying the fact that they remain to be seen as second-class citizens in spite of the fact that the country actually has an incredibly progressive constitution. There's a disconnect between what the culture is and what the constitution is. You know what I mean? It's like the aspiration of what a country should be and the reality of what it is. There's no denying that that exists.

I feel, for me, the question that we need to be asking is what is fundamentally wrong with our world? Where does violence against women come from? Why? What are the impulses at the heart of it? I feel like, in some way, the reason the film is resonating with viewers around the world is because I think they can locate themselves. Although it's a very specific story about a farmer in Jharkhand, I think they can find themselves in it, in a number of different ways; the love that he's expresses for his child, and the stakes of life and death, and the fact that he's willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, but also just the issue of violence against women, which is global

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, if you've seen To Kill a Tiger and want to speak to its writer and director, give us a call at 212-433-WNYC, or anyone else with a comment or a question as you just listen to Nisha Pahuja talk, 212-433-9692, call or text.

When you describe it just now as a film that lives at the community level as well as the national level, a central tension seems to be over the girl's right to justice under the law and morality versus the cohesion of the community in a way that comes up over and over. The sentiment seems to be that this case will bring shame on the girl, her father, for not protecting her from this happening in the first place, even as he seeks justice for her after the fact, and the village as a whole. Some people offer a quote compromise, "The ringleader of this gang rape will marry her, and life will go on." Really?

Nisha Pahuja: Yes. Sitting here in New York, the idea seems utterly absurd. There's no doubt that it is morally wrong because it is about harm. For me, I feel like human rights will always trump the community.

When you are living in a different part of the world, and that is the culture that you have been raised in, and that culture has been handed down for generations, it's what you believe. In India, and I believe this is true for a number of countries, eastern countries, the importance of the community and the importance of the collective is paramount, and it will supersede the needs of the individual or the desires of the individual because that is how these communities survive. They depend on a social cohesion. When you look at it in that context, there's something about it that is logical for them.

I think for me, as much as I find some of these as ideas, obviously problematic, I don't feel as a filmmaker or as a human being I have the right to judge people for having those beliefs. I feel like my responsibility is to engage in a conversation with people and to try to get them to see a different perspective.

Brian Lehrer: The community or members of the community seemed to think that you and the gender rights advocacy group helping the family were what was making them stay with pursuing the court case. Did you worry that you were influencing the story as you filmed it, or maybe you're proud of having influenced the story as you filmed it, if you think you did?

Nisha Pahuja: There's no question that we were having an impact on the reality on the ground, that we became part of the story. There's no question. I would say that is true of documentary filmmaking, period. The observer is always affecting the reality that's unfolding in front of them. I think in this particular case, it was so obvious and it was so clear that we were having an effect on the life of the community, and subsequently the life of Ranjit and his family.

We asked them a lot. We engaged with them a lot on this question on camera and off camera. I think there was a moment where mom, actually, I think the first month of filming with them, where she did ask us to stop filming, and we did stop filming. Then Ranjit, I think, spoke to her and then they wanted us to come back, and so We started filming with them again.

The reason they kept wanting us to film in spite of the mounting tension, and then, which ultimately the death threats that Ranjit is faced with, is because the camera actually afforded them a level of protection. We were there to bear witness. Interestingly, I've been told by activists in India, the film now again affords them a level of protection, which is quite extraordinary. I think the other thing, if I may?

Brian Lehrer: Please.

Nisha Pahuja: The other reason they wanted us to keep filming was also because it meant that they were taken seriously at court.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, if you're just joining us, we have a few more minutes with the director of To Kill a Tiger, nominated for the Oscar for best feature-length documentary. It's the last of our series of interviews with the makers of all five of the nominated feature-length documentary, something we've been doing on this show for a number of years.

Obviously, there are many great fictional feature films that have been there. I think it's been a particularly good year for movies, actually, but what we focus on here that others don't is the documentaries. We're finishing up our series with today's guest, Nisha Pahuja, who made To Kill a Tiger.

There's no English spoken in this film, so we can't play a clip in the way that we often like to. I want to play a little bit of the scene where some of the women in the village come to the family's house and question, your being there filming, and the overall insistence by you and an advocacy group on prosecuting the three men. Then we'll discuss what we hear in these 20 seconds.

[foreign language]

Brian Lehrer: The sound is pretty layered. For a listener coming to that cold it's a cacophony and there's music as well. Is that how you experienced that moment, as a cacophony and of what the family was up against?

Nisha Pahuja: Yes, absolutely. That was exactly, it was a pretty overwhelming experience. In the film, you can't see the crowd that's gathered outside. There is a real- I would say for a while, there's a certain calmness. Even though our driver comes in and says, "Okay, we got to get out of here," he's very calm about it. We're all quite calm, but outside, there was this real angry storm brewing.

At first, it was just women. It was women. Then the men started to come. They really wanted us to get out. The women really wanted us to get out because the men had been drinking. There had been some wedding, so the men had been drinking. The women felt that they weren't going to be able to control them. We actually went out at some point and tried to calm everyone down and managed to for a while, and then I can't remember, something happened. Then there was another eruption, and then the men started gathering. The women carefully guided us to our vehicle and basically said, "Don't ever come back here." We never did.

Brian Lehrer: There was real risk here with the death threats against the father. He suffered death threats, yet he followed his daughter's wishes. That's one of the things I think that you really celebrate him for.

Nisha Pahuja: Yes. He's willing to pay the ultimate sacrifice because he absolutely adores his child and he wants to do the right thing. I think for me, what I found so incredible about the film is it's her conviction. At the age of 13, and then 14, because she was 14 when it all was over, but at that really delicate tender age, she just had this sense of herself and this fundamental belief that she deserved justice, which I found so extraordinary. I have no idea where it comes from, but she had it.

Brian Lehrer: To that point, I think, listener writes, "So ironic that a community could actually be made much stronger by making a clear statement of their intolerance of such barbaric behavior, but instead decide to sweep it under the rug." That listener responding to your description of what the community's pressure against pursuing justice was.

Nisha Pahuja: I didn't understand that. Would you repeat it for me?

Brian Lehrer: I'm going to read it again. I'll read the actual words of the listener who says, "It's so ironic that a community could actually be made much stronger by making a clear statement of their intolerance of such barbaric behavior, but instead they decided to sweep it under the rug," or I would rephrase that as they pressured the family and you to sweep it under the rug.

Nisha Pahuja: Yes, absolutely. Change is hard, and change is slow. Now the community, because of the step that he took, because of that first step, it has changed. People think about it. People remember. People know Ranjit and that family in that region. There's a tremendous respect for them and what they did.

I think the thing that's really important to understand is no one in the community condoned the rape. No one said this was the right thing to do. Everyone understood that the boys were wrong, including their fathers. What they wanted was just because, in their way of thinking about it and in their system, it was about, how do we solve this issue? What's happened to her is wrong, but how do we solve it internally so that we don't bring shame upon our community?

You have to remember that it's a different culture, and you cannot judge people for being different. You have to meet them where they are and then try to get them to see things in a different way. This is true across the world. There are so many issues in the United States and in Canada, where I'm from in the UK, so many things that we have to fight for in terms of the way people think justice, oppression. These things don't just take place in far-off lands.

Brian Lehrer: Last question, and as we wrap up this series, for this show, with the directors of the five nominated feature-length documentaries and acknowledging one more time that each one comes from a different country that's not the United States- Uganda, Tunisia, Chile, Ukraine, and yours from India. What do you think about the crop of nominees this year from all over the world? What would it mean, perhaps, to the cause that you wanted to highlight in this film, not just the one family, but the broader cause if you win?

Nisha Pahuja: Yes. I think it's extraordinary that it was these five, these particular five that were selected. I think there's something that's common that's running throughout. I feel it has to do with that each film is about an issue that is bigger than the story that is represented. They are all issue-based films, fundamentally. To Kill a Tiger has a narrative that runs through it, for daughters is so exquisite in its form, but they are issue-based. If you think about where we are in the world today, and what's happening, I think that is the reason that these five were selected. This is my theory.

What would it mean to win? I think, obviously, it's extraordinary. Every single filmmaker on the planet, this is the platform that you dream of. This is the moment that you wait for, for every single director in the world. There is nothing bigger than the Academy Awards. For me, just to even get here is extraordinary.

For me, it's always been this platform affords an opportunity to get people to think about the issues that the film deals with, and that is sexual violence, and the need to encourage survivors to come forward, the need to change the systems that survivors have to navigate in order to seek justice because what Kiran and her father go through in the courts, is not exclusive to India. This is a reality that women and survivors of sexual violence face around the world.

I think the other thing for me, the thing that I really want to draw attention to, and I'm so grateful to be on this platform, is masculinity, and the need to look at what is masculinity, and how do we address it and how do we give our young boys a different way of being male. I think that's what Ranjit does so beautifully.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe that will be your next film. That's the one that you told us you were actually starting out to make.

Nisha Pahuja: Yes. It absolutely is, actually.

Brian Lehrer: To Kill a Tiger is playing, listeners, at the Quad Cinema on 13th Street in Manhattan if you want to still see it or see it in a theater. We thank Nisha Pahuja. Good luck at the Oscars.

Nisha Pahuja: Thank you, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: I say that to all the filmmakers, but I'm certainly saying it to you. Good luck. Thank you so much for joining us.

Nisha Pahuja: Thank you so much.

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