Brian Lehrer: Throughout the month of February, we're going to hear from the people behind documentaries nominated for this year's Oscar Award. Some of you know we do this every year. We invite the directors of the usually five documentaries that are nominated for best feature documentary at the Oscars and we're doing it again this year while other media focus on Barbie and lots of great films but that are not documentaries. We do the documentary track.

Up first is the actual man behind the music we just heard, Bobi Wine, Ugandan singer, politician, and subject of our first Oscar documentary, Bobi Wine: The People's President. The film spans the years 2016 to 2021 showing Bobi's rise in Ugandan politics and the repression he faced while running for president in the country's 2021 election. Bobi Wine joins us now, yay, along with the director of the film, Moses Bwayo. Bobi and Moses, welcome to WNYC. Thank you so much for coming on with us.

Moses Bwayo: Thank you for having us.

Bobi Wine: Thank you. Thank you for having us.

Brian Lehrer: Bobi, I'll say your story begins with an introduction of your wife, Barbara or Barbie. Not that Barbie. Let's start there.

Bobi Wine: In many ways, our lives are one and the same. There probably wouldn't be a Bobi without Barbie.

[laughter]

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Moses, for your first question, this documentary encompasses the years of 2016 to 2021, as I said. Tell our listeners completely unfamiliar with Bobi Wine, completely unfamiliar with Ugandan politics, why did you decide to start documenting this story, and even before he ran for president?

Moses Bwayo: Thank you for having us, Brian. Bobi is such an incredible character. He had just gotten into parliament and he was speaking to my heart and many others like me, youth in Uganda. He was asking all of us to get involved. He was really this charismatic leader, musician turned politician where you can't go wrong. He was just inspirational. We had seen him from the ghetto change his life, build himself up, become a successful musician, sing about the goings-on in the country but, now, he wanted us all to participate in what was happening in the country. He inspired us, and we just felt like it was a story worth telling.

Brian Lehrer: Bobi, were you a musician before you were interested in politics or you were you interested in politics but first broke out publicly as a musician? How did the two intersect in your life going back as far as you want?

Bobi Wine: Actually, politics in my life goes as far as before I was born. My grandfather was one of the rebel fighters with General Yoweri Museveni. He worked so hard in that liberation struggle or what we thought it was a liberation struggle to bring General Museveni. However, because of my grandfather and my father's involvement in that struggle, we lost everything because there was a crackdown by the former government of Uganda. That's how I ended up in the ghetto with my mother because my father was a political prisoner.

My mother warned us never to get involved in politics but to work so hard and change our lives, and that's exactly what I did until one day when I was attacked by one of the errant security officers and humiliated me that I saw that I need to also add my musical voice, which was very popular then, to ensure that I contribute to change. That is how I got back in politics.

Brian Lehrer: Were you trying to keep your music separate from politics, or did you always have some political thread in some of your lyrics?

Bobi Wine: Well, my music, because since that attack, it changed from entertainment to edutainment and I started addressing social issues, social injustice, and also behavior change but, again, that had sparked a transformation in me that ended up having me sing revolutionary songs and criticizing injustices and government exercise. It was one step leading to another.

Brian Lehrer: Did you say your music changed from entertainment to edutainment?

Bobi Wine: Oh yes.

Brian Lehrer: That's a great way to put it. More for people who don't know your story, I see that you were arrested and held in military barracks in 2018, and then upon your release, you were forced to flee to the United States. Would you tell some of that story of why you were detained and what you endured while you were imprisoned?

Bobi Wine: Thank you. I must say that, as we speak now, my music is banned in Uganda but, before it happened, it is the music that endeared me to the people that I run and become a member of parliament. I did not stop there, but a revolution had started and I kept moving around the country campaigning for other pro-change candidates until I was arrested by the military, tortured so bad, and that was in 2018. I had to run to the United States for treatment, but I didn't stay in the United States. I went back. That arrest by the military and torture changed so much in me. It sparked world attention on Uganda and we wanted to use that to create more attention on the situation in Uganda. That is what we are still doing up to now.

Brian Lehrer: Moses, for you as a filmmaker who started following Bobi Wine in Uganda in 2016, these incredible twists and turns in his life, this is not what you thought you were getting yourself into, was it?

Moses Bwayo: No. As we started making the film myself and my co-director, Christopher Sharp, we wanted to tell the story of a musician-turned-politician. Bobi said the ghetto has come to parliament after he swore because the parliament had failed to get to the ghetto, so we wanted to tell that story of a young successful musician, inspirational leader coming to parliament and bringing change and bringing bills. That kind of story is what he wanted to tell with his beautiful family but, in the end, he decides to run for president and the moment he led, he said, "We are going to remove Museveni from power in 2018."

The Ugandan dictatorship that has been in power for 38 years increased its terror upon him and those around him and his family so, increasingly, we saw that the film and the camera had become a protection for him and his family and the people around him. In fact, it became more and more apparent that we needed to tell the story.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, by the way, we can take a few phone calls. Any Bobi Wine fans out there or anybody with ties to Uganda in any way? The phones are open. 212-433. WNYC, 212-433-9692. Or you can also text us at that number if you have a comment or a question. If you're just joining us, this is Episode 1 of our annual Oscar documentary series. We invite the directors of usually five. There are usually five of all five documentaries that are nominated for the Best Feature Documentary Oscar. We're kicking off the series today with the filmmaker, Moses Bwayo, who made the movie called Bobi Wine: The People's President. We are delighted and honored to have the subject of the film, Bobi Wine, also in this segment as our guest. 212-433. WNYC, 212-433-9692. Moses, we've been hearing some of Bobi's story. Tell us some of your story. Are you also Ugandan?

Moses Bwayo: Yes. Brian, I was born and grew up in Uganda. In fact, my co-director, Christopher Sharp, who's English, his dad was born in Uganda, and Christopher himself was also born in Uganda, but they had to flee the country because of the Idi Amin regime. Anyway, yes, I was born in Uganda and I lived in Uganda all my life. I must say when we started making this story, I didn't know that I would currently be living in the US. I am now a political asylee in America. Really, the stakes have been high for this film, and so much has changed. As we started, I never thought I would have to seek political asylum in another country but, by the end of the filming, I had been shot in the face, locked up in prison while making the film. Shot in the face at close range.

Brian Lehrer: Wow.

Moses Bwayo: Yes, but the craft and dedication to the craft and telling the story was what inspired me to keep going.

Brian Lehrer: Is this a result of your making the film because you were seen as associated with Bobi Wine at the time that he wound up having to leave the country?

Moses Bwayo: Yes. In the beginning, the violence was happening to Bobi, his supporters, and the politicians around him and his family but, increasingly, as we got close to the 2021 election, the violence was now made upon the Fourth Estate journalists, filmmakers, and people who were covering the story. I had been following Bobi for five years, and at that point they had identified me. Regardless of what happened, I had to keep going. There was a revolution happening in front of me. It was a blessing to cover this story, and if you would ask me, I would do it again.

Brian Lehrer: Wow. Bobi, I wonder what you have to say about Moses. You have taken risks as both a politician and a musician in the context of Uganda. Here he is being a documentary filmmaker just covering you and he winds up in exile. What do you have to say about him?

Bobi Wine: First of all, I would say that I met Moses at a professional level. He was a film director and camera guy but, by the time he had to run out of the country, we had become comrades in the struggle and brothers. There came a time when he forgot about his own camera where being that we are both Ugandans and relatively young people and responsible for the future of our country. We would hold very passionate conversations about our country, and we started suffering the same like he mentioned it. He also got targeted like all other journalists and people that were around me.

We were even under house arrest together by the military. Moses went to prison when he was caught filming us. He was arrested numerous times. He was shot in the face and all that. Now that he's in exile, he cannot come home. He cannot see his mother or his family anymore. It is much more than just the film. For us, it is a fight for the right to be home with our families.

Brian Lehrer: Incredible commitment, incredible courage. Najozi in Silver Spring, Maryland. You're on WNYC with Bobi and Moses. Hello.

Najozi: Hi. Good morning, Brian. First time in a long time. Bobi and Moses, nice to meet you here. Moses, we met doing your film screening here in Washington, and we're in Silver Spring about a year ago. I don't know if you recall me, but we've been following each other on Instagram since then.

Moses Bwayo: Oh.

Najozi: Bobi, it's wonderful to meet you here on the phone today. I have been following you for many years. I am a Ugandan-American, born and raised in Silver Spring, but with very close ties still to Uganda. I want to thank you both for your work and continuing to call attention to what has been going on in Uganda for many, many years, initially, through your music, Bobi, and continuing on to do this through the politics. You have our support in the diaspora and we really hope that you continue calling the attention to what is happening. Just don't give up. We're watching. We're paying attention. We're supporting. I want to give you as many congratulations and strength for moving forward, but we're very proud of you.

Bobi Wine: Thank you.

Najozi: I'm born and raised in the States. Like I said, I have not lived in Uganda, but I've spent a lot of time there. For so much of my family, Museveni 'M7' is the only president that they know, and we're ready for change. Everybody is ready for change. Thank you so much for putting your life on the line for us and for really the freedom and liberation of Uganda and other countries on the continent. Thank you so much. [unintelligible 00:14:44]

Bobi Wine: Oh, thank you. I appreciate. That was a very kind comment.

Brian Lehrer: Beautiful caller. Thank you for being a first-time caller. Najozi don't make it the last time. I want to give people a few more samples from the film. During the election, you and members of your campaign for president as well as the broader Ugandan public face severe punishments for running an opposition to President Museveni as you've been describing, of course. Here's a clip of you and members of your family deciding to send your children to the United States. First, the children for their safety.

Bobi Wine: Be confident children. Be prayerful. Think about us every day. We will think about you and we hope you will never, ever have to run away from your country ever again.

Brian Lehrer: In an interview with Al Jazeera after your arrest, you were asked if you're hopeful about the future of Uganda. Here's what you had to say then.

Bobi Wine: I'm very hopeful for Uganda's future. Regardless of the operation, no matter how many people are tortured, imprisoned, or even killed, I know that freedom will come to Uganda someday.

Brian Lehrer: Bobi, I wonder how hopeful you are as you sit here today. I think many Americans find it hard to be hopeful in the current times about the future of this country, even though our conditions here are objectively less volatile. We're not ruled by a military dictatorship. Police aren't gunning down protestors in the street. Are you still hopeful for the future of Uganda?

Bobi Wine: Yes, I'm hopeful. I've been hopeful already, because I'm sure we are standing on the truth, because I know that oppressed people, historically, have never been stayed oppressed forever. We've seen examples from slavery to colonialism, to apartheid, to many dictatorships all over the world. They have fallen. No matter how long they stand, they have fallen. The truth always stands and freedom always reigns, I know, and I'm sure the same will happen because the same examples have been shown.

I'm even more sure now that one day Uganda will be free because we have been able to break the confines of the regime about information. We've been able to tell our story beyond our borders. We've been able to show the entire world the situation in Uganda. I'm even more hopeful after the film is nominated for the Oscars. That means it'll reach far. That means we stand more chances of the authorities in America to see the situation in Uganda and to see what they're sponsoring. I'm more hopeful that more Americans will see the situation and that will spark a discussion that will ultimately cause a change in the policies of America towards Uganda.

I know that it is that film that was shown in the '80s here in America that showed the evils of the apartheid regime in South Africa that caused the world discussion that ultimately led to the freedom of Mandela and finally, the freedom of South Africa and the fall of the apartheid regime. I see the same trajectory. Even if I don't become president, at least, I know that the people of Uganda have been awakened so much, especially the young people, and the world has seen the situation in Uganda. Whatever contribution that our generation has given, whatever contribution that this film has brought, we shall forever be proud of that contribution that [unintelligible 00:18:59]

Brian Lehrer: Bobi, I think if there is one issue from Uganda that people in the United States know a little bit about, it's probably the big strain of anti-LGBTQ policies coming from the government, and to some degree, that exists at that level in the country at large. To what degree is that an issue for you, or was it in your presidential campaign?

Bobi Wine: First of all, we are firm believers in human rights for all Ugandans. We believe that the regime in Uganda is just using that to target, especially opponents including ourselves in the opposition, but we've said it time and again that we're firm believers in human rights for every Ugandan for all walks of life.

Brian Lehrer: Let me get one more fan on here. Someone who I think maybe didn't know so much like the earlier caller who's Ugandan-American, but saw the movie. Maryanne in the East Village. You're on WNYC. Hi, Maryanne. We have about 30 seconds for you.

Maryanne: Hi, Brian. Thank you for having them on. Hi, Bobi and Moses, it's an honor to speak to you.

Bobi Wine: Thank you.

Moses Bwayo: Thank you.

Maryanne: Bobi, I agree with everything you said just now, and I didn't know much at all of, I'm embarrassed to say Uganda, and I'm rooting for you for the Oscars. This is the power of documentaries.

Bobi Wine: Thank you.

Moses Bwayo: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Maryanne, thank you very much. Moses, let's end on that question. Bobi was just speaking so eloquently about what he hopes recognition for this film at the Oscars will help achieve for the cause. Do you see it that way? When you make a documentary, it's not like making a feature film. Feature films may also have very important messages. Of course, they often do, but when you make a documentary it's even more about-- I think you probably went into it trying to change the world for the better. At least, Uganda for the better in some way. What do you think, recognition, if you do win the Oscar might mean to the cause?

Moses Bwayo: Firstly, Brian, this recognition, we receive it with utmost gratitude. We are humbled by this recognition. Not so many times stories like ours are highlighted, but this is really a great honor and we thank all the people, all the supporters that have gotten us to this point.

Brian Lehrer: Even just the nomination is a great honor.

Moses Bwayo: Yes, please, it is but, Brian, I'll make this point. Our film is not just only about the Ugandan dictatorship. Our film highlights the fragility of democracies around the world. We hope that democracy-loving people in the world and audiences when they see this film will know that they need to protect their democracies. Democracies are very fragile systems. They need our protection, most especially here in America and many other countries, Europe, because if you lose your democracy, you'll have a situation like what we have in Uganda. We've never had the democracy. Uganda is the second youngest country in the world. 85% of the population is under the age of 35. We are very hopeful people, but we have never had a democracy. I hope that this film will highlight the need to protect democracies around the world. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Their listeners is the first of this year's edition of our annual series in which we invite the directors and sometimes, as today, the subjects of the five Oscar-nominated feature-length documentaries. My guests have been Bobi Wine and Moses Bwayo. Moses is the director of the Oscar-nominated film, Bobi Wine: The People's President. An honor to have both of you with us. Thank you so much.

Moses Bwayo: Thanks, Brian.

Bobi Wine: Thank you.

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