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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Now we continue our Oscar season series of interviews with the creators of the five Oscar-nominated feature-length documentaries. Some of you know we do this every year. While most other media focus on best actor or the big hit films, our attention goes to the documentaries. So far, we've heard about three of the films: Bobi Wine: The People's President, about an opposition leader in Uganda. Four Daughters, about a mother, her daughters in ISIS in Tunisia. The Eternal Memory, about personal and societal remembering and forgetting in Chile. Today, we turn to Ukraine and the film 20 Days in Mariupol, with its director and narrator, Mstyslav Chernov.

This is perhaps the most difficult of the films to watch, giving us a front-row seat on the ravages to buildings, bodies, and society from the invasion by Russia two years ago this very week. Chernov, a Ukrainian video journalist, was part of a small team sent to Mariupol by the Associated Press just before the invasion. They outlasted the other international journalists, and the footage they shot, snippets of which made news reports at the time, is the basis of the documentary. It comes at a harrowing time for Ukraine as we've been reporting on the station, with no end in sight for the war, and further US assistance at risk due to the impasse in Congress. Here's a bit from the trailer, about 30 seconds, mostly in English.

[playing a clip from the documentary]

[wailing siren]

Mstyslav Chernov: Someone once told me, wars don't start with explosions. They start with silence.

[background conversation in foreign language]

Mstyslav Chernov: Russians have entered the city. The war has begun, and we have to tell its story.

[end of the clip from the documentary]

Brian Lehrer: That was the voice of Mstyslav Chernov, who joins us now from Los Angeles. Welcome back to WNYC. Congratulations on the nomination and on the win at last week's BAFTA awards. For people who don't know, that's the British version of the Oscars, and you won best documentary there.

Mstyslav Chernov: Thank you so much, and thank you for inviting me.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe your first question is, are you even able to enjoy that honor, or does it have to come with action in support of Ukraine on the ground for you to get a smile out of it?

Mstyslav Chernov: It is a bittersweet feeling, and it was a bittersweet feeling all the way since we premiered a year ago at the Sundance, but we are inviting people into the war zone to show important, but not an easy story. That's why every single recognition in this way is not just an honor for us and responsibility, but also a way to make sure that this film finds new audiences, and that Mariupol is not forgotten. This year is so amazing, all the contenders, all the films represent such important stories. I'm glad that the world is interested in actual and visceral storytelling by documentary filmmakers. That inspires me.

Brian Lehrer: Films from many nations, which seem to really define the Oscar documentary nominees this year. The film goes chronologically from day 1 to day 20 when you get away, and on day 1, you meet an older woman in the street near hysterics about what's happening and where she can go. You reassure her with the quote, "The Russians don't shoot civilians," and the rest of the film shows how wrong that assumption was. Was that the attitude when it started, that they would target their attacks only on the Ukrainian military?

Mstyslav Chernov: Yes. Later I meet that woman, and I have to apologize because her house was hit by a shell, and she tells me about that, and I really regret. At that time, we all really hoped for the best, that Russia will not be targeting civilian population. That's what they claimed, but that's the opposite to what we saw. That's why the reporting on that was so urgent and necessary, especially when Mariupol was cut off from all the connections and bombarded heavily, and then the maternity hospital got hit. All that told us that this war will be much more violent than we hoped.

I think Ukrainians always thought that their neighbor is bad to them, but still will not be killing openly so many civilians, and I think now in the world still there are some people who think Russia will not do that to other countries, but history shows otherwise. History shows that the violence is indiscriminate and it's unstoppable, and so many other cities got destroyed since Mariupol has fallen. Before that was Aleppo and Grozny, so we see that this is a deliberate tactic, and this is the strategy Russia uses on all the countries they invade.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, I know some of you have seen 20 Days in Mariupol. If you want to ask the filmmaker, Mstyslav Chernov a question, we can take a few phone calls, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Call or text. I mentioned that the film was hard to watch. It's quite visceral, literally showing the children killed in the shelling, the grief of their parents, the fear. We see what made it into newscasts around the world versus so much more that you were recording and display some of in the film. Here's a moment from the film that demonstrates that after a particularly harrowing time at a hospital. We hear what your narration includes, and then cut to some of the newscasts that picked up your reports. This runs about 50 seconds.

[playing a clip from the documentary]

Mstyslav Chernov: The front line is closing in. We've sent all the photos and videos. Note to editors, graphic content. This is painful. This is painful to watch, but it must be painful to watch.

Newscaster 1: In the port city of Mariupol, local officials say hundreds of casualties are now feared.

Newscaster 2: A father lost in grief over the body of his 16-year-old son, Ilya.

Newscaster 3: The electricity's gone, the internet's gone. The Russians are coming. Mariupol awaits its fate.

[end of the clip from the documentary]

Brian Lehrer: Mstyslav, were you trying to make a contrast there between how intense and-- intense isn't even the word, it was actually, and the kind of smoothed-over way that newscasts tend to present?

Mstyslav Chernov: I wouldn't say I was trying to make any contrast, but working as a conflict journalist for almost a decade in different countries, not only in Ukraine, but in Iraq, in Syria, in Afghanistan, in Gaza, I know that even the biggest tragedies, they tend to get lost and forgotten in a sea of information that we are all surrounded with. It is so important, especially in the age of misinformation and misinterpretation, the context is so important. That's why this film exists, because it gives the audience much more context than they would see in one-minute or two-minute news pieces. It just allows us to see not only images on the screen, but to understand that these are the real people, this is a real pain. We recently hear a lot about fatigue from news from Ukraine and shift in attention, but I have to say, especially when you see the film, you understand that, again, these are real people. This is not a competition for attention. These are not TV series which are trying to get their rating, these are real humanitarian catastrophes we are talking about.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. That child Ilya, referred to in that clip, I'll just say he was playing soccer with friends and they are shelled, and both his legs are blown off and he dies at the hospital. We see in here his father wailing in grief, so painful to watch, but it goes by so quickly in the news coverage and is smoothed over a little bit. Not that they have any bad intent, but I think there may be more than you can be in a documentary or more than you are required to be in a documentary, trying to pay attention a little bit to what they consider watchable by a mass audience. And a fair amount of [crosstalk]--

Mstyslav Chernov: We see him later being buried in a mass grave along with other children. That's also what is missing from the context of the news, and that is so devastating for us.

Brian Lehrer: Here's one more clip. You find a protector and a police officer named Vladimir who asked you to film a statement, including this that we'll hear in a second. A protector because you were worried about your own safety as a journalist once the war started, so Vladimir says this in English:

[playing a clip from the documentary]

Vladimir: Russian troops commit war crimes. Our family, our women, our children need help. Our people need help from international society. Please, help Mariupol.

[end of the clip from the documentary]

Brian Lehrer: I guess he thought that if the world saw what was happening, it would make a difference. Do you think it has?

Mstyslav Chernov: It had in a moment. I cannot say that this film or this reporting-- I don't see it yet that it made an international impact as much as any journalist would hope. Things are going really bad right now. We see that Ukraine became a political topic, not a humanitarian one. At that point, the footage that now we know at that point, the footage that we sent, the photos that we sent, that became a symbol of tragedy of Mariupol and other cities. They helped to negotiate the Green Corridor, the humanitarian corridor for civilians that escaped the city eventually, and we were among those civilians. Even if on a bigger scale, it didn't have the impact that I would like it to, it at least saved some lives and helped some people to find their loved ones. Even if it's one life, it was all worth it because-- Well, that's what the journalism is about, it's about something that is happening right now, and about people who need attention right now.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. I'd also like to ask about another facet of this war that you document, the damage to society, and the mistrust from the misinformation campaign, and the overall lack of access to real information, to the point that people you're speaking to ask, "Who is doing the bombing?"

Mstyslav Chernov: Yes, I think this is one of the important themes of our film, and that is actually why we include some of the news reports to show the transformation from the real event into what makes it to the big audiences. We see how jarring that difference is, and it's upsetting, but it's mostly upsetting to people who live through these tragedies, and who are then told by propaganda that their tragedies are not real and this was all fake. I guess we just have to accept that we live in this age of misinterpretations, and we have to learn how to live with it. We just have to make sure that the new generation, that the young people are educated enough to find the truth among all these interpretations.

Brian Lehrer: We have a few minutes, listeners, if you're just joining us. Few minutes left with Mstyslav Chernov, who has made the documentary 20 Days in Mariupol, one of the five nominated for best feature-length documentary at the Oscars, as we continue with our series interviewing the directors of all five of those films. You've covered other wars, I understand, as a journalist for the AP. Can you talk about the difference when it's in your language, when your country, when your family is at risk?

Mstyslav Chernov: Yes, of course. Every human tragedy-- that's for sure, and I absolutely stand for that. Every human tragedy is equally important, and there shouldn't be any selective empathy as it's called. We have to report on every single human being losing their lives, but of course, when I'm in Ukraine-- and for me, conflict journalism started from Ukraine in 2014 when Russia invaded Ukraine and annexed its territories. For me, it's so much more personal because it's not only just cities that are being bombed and people being killed, it's also-- I am part of this community. These are my neighbors, and this is my family, and this is my childhood memories that are being destroyed by these bombs. Not only a physical world, let's say, but also the identity that I grew up with, and that has much more impact.

Then I have to put these emotions aside and make sure that we are reporting objectively and that we are hearing all the people. It's because the journalism is so important now, without journalism, the modern society-- to your previous question, the modern society is collapsing. That's what we saw in Mariupol as an example. We were all cut off from the information, and we saw how the society crumbled out of panic, and how people didn't know what to believe. So, especially when you talk about your own country, you want to make sure that you do everything possible to help your people at least to be heard and to understand what's happening. That's what motivates me too.

Brian Lehrer: You as a journalist, were documenting a war for this film. I don't know if you get into policy conversations at all, but here's a question from a listener in a text message. They write, "What is happening to the Ukrainian people is truly horrifying, but doesn't continuing the fighting just prolong this suffering? Perhaps there are dangerous geopolitical implications to letting Russia declare victory, but wouldn't it ultimately be better for the Ukrainian people than this endless war?" asks this listener. Do you have any response to that? Or you just say, "That's not my topic."

Mstyslav Chernov: No, of course, I have a response. A lot of Ukrainians think about it, and you know what, there are two answers to this. The first one is, we Ukrainians always wanted peace. In 2014 when Russia, I just mentioned, annexed Crimea and violently took part of Donbas and occupied it as well, Ukrainians did try to sign the treaty with Russia. In fact, Russia just, let's say not legalized, but at least de facto had control of Ukrainian territories, and the Ukrainians hoped that that would stop them. But we saw that in few years, Russia gathered their forces and they attacked again. That's what Ukrainians know for sure is going to happen if they accept that Russia annexes more of the territories, because Russia clearly states-- if you look at Russia news, they clearly state, like yesterday and before yesterday, every day they state they want Kyiv, they want Odessa, that's their plan. They don't even hide their intentions that they want whole Ukraine to be part of Russia. That's one.

Two, I would say imagine if Los Angeles-- I'm now in Los Angeles, it's a city size of Mariupol. Just imagine for a second that Los Angeles got invaded by Russia, and destroyed completely, and hundreds of children were killed, and thousands of people. US Army would fight Russia for every inch of US soil. Then the world would come around and say, "Hey, would you just give up California to Russia? It's okay. You don't really need it." Wouldn't that be absurd? Would US citizens and US Army stop fighting for their land? I don't think so. I mean, there's so much patriotism, so much identity and pride in America, so I don't see how that happens to a nation who protects their identity.

Brian Lehrer: I know you got to go in about 30 seconds. A listener asks, "How are your daughters? They're mentioned a lot in the film. Hope they're doing okay."

Mstyslav Chernov: Oh, thank you for that question. My youngest daughter was seven months old when Mariupol was happening, and I was really afraid I would not see them again. They're safe, and just seeing them from time to time-- I'm spending most of the time in Ukraine, and of course, I'm not with them, but just thinking about them motivates me to go forward to keep filming and to keep making sure that the world knows about what's happening.

Brian Lehrer: Mstyslav Chernov, a video journalist with the Associated Press, the director of the Oscar-nominated feature documentary, 20 Days in Mariupol. By the way folks, it's airing tonight on PBS Frontline. Best of luck. Thank you for giving us some time.

Mstyslav Chernov: Thank you. Stay safe.

Brian Lehrer: We have one more director to interview as we continue our annual series, talking to the directors of the five feature-length documentaries nominated for the Oscar. We'll do that on tomorrow's show. More to come on today's show. Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Stay with us.

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