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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. This is a big day in the race for governor of New York and for changes in the state's gun laws. Tonight, the three Democrats running for the nomination for governor will hold their first televised debate. It's on Channel 2 and WCBS Radio at seven o'clock for an hour between Kathy Hochul, Tom Suozzi and Jumaane Williams. Now, yesterday Hochul, who at one time had the NRA endorsement when she was running for Congress in Buffalo, got to put her gun control credentials in the spotlight when she signed a package of 10 bills passed by the legislature last week and gave an intense speech in the Bronx before she did.

Kathy Hochul: It just keeps happening. Shots ring out, flags come down and nothing ever changes, except here in New York. In New York, we are taking bold, strong action. We're tightening the red flag laws to keep guns away from dangerous people.

Brian Lehrer: Notice she mentioned red flag laws. We're going to come back to those in a minute for a really interesting take, but that action that the governor took, the package of bills that she signed includes also raising the age from 18 to 21 to buy semi-automatic weapons in New York State. The Buffalo and Uvalde gunmen last month were both 18 and both had bought their AR-15s legally. The new package also includes a licensing requirement to buy an assault weapon legally in New York. Another bill in the package bans the sale of body armor in the state. The Buffalo shooter, remember, wore body armor, which is why the store security guard's bullets didn't stop him according to press reports.

Try to think of a non-criminal use for civilian body armor. The state will now require social media platforms to develop plans for dealing with "hateful conduct online." Remember, the Buffalo shooter had posted racist rants before his attack. The state will create a task force to study the role of social media in domestic terrorism. It'll be interesting to see what the task force comes up with and if it leads to any new rules. We'll focus our conversation now mostly on another item in the package and yes, it is strengthening the state's red flag law under which a judge can order people to give up their firearms if they are deemed a threat of physical danger to themselves or others.

One new thing here is the addition of healthcare professionals to the list of people who can file a red flag law request with the courts. They join family members, school officials and members of law enforcement. Here's the key to the effectiveness of red flag laws no matter how good they look on paper. People have to use them. The Washington Post did an article on why the red flag laws failed in the case of the racist supermarket shooter in Buffalo. Part of that article says the shooter was able to get his hands on a rifle even though law enforcement had referred him for a psychiatric evaluation after he made a threat to his school.

That could have been enough for a police officer or family member or school administrator to petition a court for an extreme risk protection order, which would have temporarily removed guns from the shooter and prevented him from purchasing new ones, the article says, but no such petition was filed in the case. That's from the Washington Post. It turns out that one county in our area stands out from all the rest in its use of red flag laws. It's Suffolk County. In the last three years, according to statistics published in Newsday, judges in Suffolk County used red flag laws to remove guns from people deemed to be a threat more than 300 times.

By contrast, Nassau County, the other county on Long Island, only did it 40 times. With us now is Michael Gormley, Newsday's Albany reporter who has a recent article on how the state's red flag laws work, that includes the stats I just cited, and Andy Newman, New York Times correspondent covering poverty and social services in the greater New York City area. He is co-author of an article about Suffolk County published on Sunday called, How a New York County Used the State's red Flag Law to Seize 160 Guns. Michael from Newsday, Andy from the Times, thanks a lot for coming on for this today. Welcome back to WNYC.

Michael Gormley: Great. Thank you.

Andy Newman: Thanks, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, help us report this story. Have you ever been involved in a red flag law case involving yourself or someone you know? 212-433-WNYC, if you can help us report this story, either as a loved one or as a professional, your own involvement, or have you ever considered whether to file a red flag law petition and decided not to go that far. 212-433-WNYC, or if you've ever been the subject of a red flag law petition and you're willing to talk about that.

Listeners, help us report this story or ask our guests any questions about the red flag laws. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 or you can tweet @BrianLehrer. Andy, your article in the Times begins with a story of a 16-year-old from Suffolk who told fellow students that he wanted to shoot their heads off and also to shoot himself. What happened in that case as an example of how red flag laws work?

Andy Newman: What happened in that case, Brian, is that school officials found out about these threats, and I'm not sure exactly how, but they contacted the police. In Suffolk County it's usually the police who actually file the red flag request and so the police went to a judge and said, "We have this kid. He's talking about shooting people. He's talking about shooting himself. He says he has a shotgun at his house. We would like to send the Sheriff to his house to collect his gun for up to a year." The judge eventually approved the red flag order.

Afterwards, three weeks after the temporary order was filed, there was what's called a final order. That's the thing that says that the guns go away for up to a year. The judge wrote that the boy admitted that not having the shotguns in his home is helpful to him. Here's at least one case that we know of where the person who lost access to guns seemed to have been glad that he lost access to the guns.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, good example. Michael, your article in Newsday refers to Suffolk leading the state the last three years in red flag law orders of protection. Andy just referred briefly to the distinction here, but 187 temporary orders and 116 longer-term orders. What's the difference between the temporary and longer-term orders as they pertain to guns?

Michael Gormley: Sure. A temporary order can be done very quickly, can be done that day, especially when police are involved at a site. Guns can be taken away, restricted. The ability to buy new guns can be restricted temporarily. That's for an evaluation that eventually goes to the judge, as Andy was saying. The longer-term orders can be up to a year to keep someone from either possessing guns or buying new guns.

Andy Newman: Hi, Michael. They can also be renewed. If at the end of the year the person is deemed by whoever, their mental health provider or their family or someone still thinks that they pose a danger, they can go back to the judge and say, "Can you can extend this order?" They can be renewed indefinitely, but the order itself is always good for a maximum of one year.

Brian Lehrer: Andy, your article has some specific Suffolk County stats for the more than 100 cases you studied. I think our listeners will find these interesting. The youngest subject of a red flag law order was 14 years old, the oldest was 88. All but two were male. If I'm doing the math right, about 10% of the cases involve minors. You give examples of the types of statements or behaviors that launched the red flag reports. Can you give us an idea of the array of what actually gets the process going in real life?

Andy Newman: Yes. We found that there were a bunch of different reasons. The most common reason that these red flag orders were issued was actually when someone was talking about suicide, someone who had access to guns or was talking about getting access to guns, so they could kill themselves. There were people talking about doing a murder suicide. There were some domestic violence cases that also involved criminal threats against people. There was one guy who was in the process of being charged with harassing an ex-girlfriend and he started singing this song about shooting up a playground, which raised some warning signals.

There were a lot of cases that we found of gun owners who are struggling with very severe mental illness, people who are delusional or otherwise very unstable. A lot of people who were bipolar or had Schizoaffective diagnoses, who had guns, or who had access to guns. Which seemed a little bit scary to us. In those cases, it was often the family who in a panic would contact the police and say, my son is off his medicines. He's talking about killing himself. What do I do? The police in Suffolk County have been educated to listen for these warning signals and to move for a red flag when there's no way when someone's doing nothing criminal. They can't be charged with a criminal thing, but if they're still a danger this is now a tool in their toolbox.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. Now, why Suffolk County? You quote the Suffolk County Attorney Dennis Cohen, saying as a policy the county decided to take a very aggressive approach and that's the concept of your article and the concept of this conversation, is that Suffolk County leads all New York State counties in actually applying the red flag law. Can you describe what that aggressive approach involves compared to Nassau County or anywhere else?

Andy Newman: The aggressive, excuse me, the aggressive approach in Suffolk County means that the people who run the police department and the commissioner, the county police, which is the by far the biggest law enforcement agency in Suffolk County, is one of the biggest police forces in the country, those officers received specific training on how to use this law. The county police department also went out to school superintendents throughout the county, or had meetings with the School Superintendents Association, where they said," Hey if you get a threat to your school, this is something you can do."

The police also were talking to community groups to try to get the word out just among the general population because there are so many people who have a loved one or a family member who is struggling with depression, mental illness, or whatever it is that makes a risk factor. That's, basically, how they did it. Another thing that the county police department did was they had a lawyer appointed whose full-time job within the county police department was to make these cases and prepare them to go in front of the judge because every case has to be approved by a judge. You, obviously, want to make the case as coherently as possible.

Brian Lehrer: Michael, before we go to a caller that I see we're getting from Suffolk County, Michael [unintelligible 00:12:47] with a story to this effect, standby we'll get right to you, Michael, from Newsday, any thoughts to add on why the difference between the two counties you cover on Long Island in the three years the red flag law had been in effect?

Michael Gormley: I think we all would probably like to see more of an analysis of how this has been done, but at Newsday we were looking at the red flag law before the Buffalo shooting. It was amazing that criminologists and legislators involved in this, I would ask them what's the number one problem with the red flag law? They would say, no one knows about it. That's a real concern. I said, "How could the police not know about this?" They said, "That's what we're finding." What Suffolk County is doing makes a lot of sense. It's almost like an experiment that shows that this does work. You've got a whole bunch of counties around this state that have never done one of the year-long risk orders. There is a disconnect here and the people, again, told us that the big problem is people don't know about this.

Brian Lehrer: All right, let's take that caller. I said, Michael, it's really Mitch. Mitch [unintelligible 00:13:59] you're on WNYC. Thank you so much for calling in today.

Mitch: Thank you for having me on.

Brian Lehrer: [crosstalk] You have a story of a friend, right?

Mitch: A friend of mine was in domestic chaos. Just a lot of yelling and dramatizing back and forth. At one point in it he threatened to shoot himself with one of his deer rifles, avid deer hunter. He agreed to be observed at Bellevue for 72 hours. He was released without further action, but his guns were taken, which probably was a really good idea at the time. The thing is a year later he wasn't able to get them back.

Brian Lehrer: Because?

Mitch: No explanation. I think he couldn't navigate the bureaucracy involved.

Brian Lehrer: Did that frustrate him? Did he feel judgmental of the red flag laws?

Mitch: No. I think he thought that a good thing had happened. He was sad about the expense of replacing the weapons. I don't know that he ever did. I think he gave up deer hunting.

Brian Lehrer: Mitch, thank you for your call. I appreciate your story. It's informative. In fact, Andy you quote Geraldine Hart, the former Suffolk County Police Commissioner in charge of the rollout of the red flag law saying Suffolk has been forward leaning in training police officers and school officials on how to use the law. I think this goes to what Michael was saying before the caller about the biggest problem with the red flag laws he was told is that people don't know about them. Did you get any specifics on what that training might look like in a forward-leaning county?

Andy Newman: I don't have specifics. I just assume it meant everybody was taken to or given training on it. It's really interesting if you look at the statewide statistics. There is an incredible range of counties not using it at all, counties using it occasionally. Onondaga County, which has Syracuse, actually uses it more times per capita than Suffolk County does though. It's a smaller county. It doesn't have to do with politics, like a red county or a blue county. There's just very, very uneven use of this law, and State Senator Brian Kavanaugh, who was the sponsor, was talking to us about this and saying that there really there just needs to be better communication. I think that's something that the governor now is on top of.

Brian Lehrer: Michael, the caller indicated that the first indication of trouble with his friend was a lot of yelling and screaming at home. Did I see that in the new version of the red flag law that the legislature passed last week and the governor signed yesterday that there's a requirement for police to initiate a red flag law investigation in a domestic situation? Am I making that up in my head or is there something like that?

Michael Gormley: No, you're right. In fact, what Governor Hochul did immediately right after the Buffalo shooting, is she required state police to do that to initiate these or at least consider this situation where someone in a domestic violence situation may have guns or may have access to guns. Then the legislature and Governor Hochul have agreed to extend that to other police agencies. You're right. It's a much more aggressive attitude about using the law.

Brian Lehrer: To be clear, does that order just apply to the state police per se or also to police employed at the local level by cities and counties, NYPD, Suffolk County Police, that kind of thing?

Michael Gormley: The original executive order applied only to state police. Now, the law will apply to local police.

Brian Lehrer: Andy, did Suffolk County Attorney Cohen or Commissioner Hart indicate that they thought if the Buffalo shooter had exhibited the same behavior in Suffolk that he had in Buffalo that led to his psychiatric evaluation that he had there, he would've been blocked from buying that assault weapon?

Andy Newman: I did not ask them specifically that question. What the Buffalo shooter, according to his own writings, said he did, he was taken to a hospital for a mental health evaluation. He said he was seen for about only 15 minutes and that he lied and said, "I was just joking when I wrote that thing." What he actually wrote was a high school economics assignment where he was asked, what would you like to do when you retire? His answer was, I want to do a murder suicide. He said he was joking. For whatever reason, the evaluation that was conducted apparently concluded that he was not a sufficient danger for any further action to be taken and that was it. I do not know if in Suffolk County that would've gotten red flagged. It's a good question.

Brian Lehrer: You were just joking. Never mind. Carry on with your life then. Michael [crosstalk]

Andy Newman: By the way, I'm sorry. Just very relevantly to this. There was a guy who the cops red flagged after somebody reported that was-- he texted a friend that he had tried to shoot himself, but the gun jammed and then he texted that same friend, "I don't want to be here anymore. I don't want to live anymore." Later on both the guy and the friend testified that he was just joking and the judge ended up denying that order. The burden of proof is clear and convincing evidence, and if the judge doesn't think there's clear and convincing evidence they don't have to issue the order.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and Michael we've been talking so far about removing guns from somebody who already has them. In these cases of court evaluations is the red flag law applicable to stopping someone from a new gun purchase as would've been needed in the Buffalo case or only removing weapons they already have?

Michael Gormley: No. The idea is that it would prohibit someone from getting the background approval that you would need to purchase a new firearm. I would also mention about the interest, about the aggressive attitude of using this law, it really is requiring law enforcement to push harder on these things. I don't know if it's true at all that it was only 15 minutes and he said he was joking. I don't know. We'd have to find out if that is true or not but there would be much more aggressive stance on this.

I spoke with the state Senator Todd Kaminsky, a former federal prosecutor, and he said a DA had told him that an employee went to a boss and said, "I'm going to Columbine this place." Police were involved and it was determined that there wasn't a specific enough threat. Now that's the kind of thing that the reforms are supposed to address, is that you can't just dismiss this stuff and that's what they're hoping, is they're going to be pushing a lot harder on this.

Brian Lehrer: Speaking of dismissing this stuff I think Natalie in Manhattan has a relevant question to that. Natalie, you are on WNYC. Thank you for calling.

Natalie: Hello, so happy to be talking to you. My question is, is there any provision in the red flag law to include punishment for parents or relatives who are living with potential killers and know about it? Know that they have an arsenal of guns, and know that they've made very violent statements.

Brian Lehrer: Good question. Michael, I'll stay with you on this. Do if that's in the new law or if it was in the old law for that matter?

Michael Gormley: Well, it just sort of depends on what your view of punishment is. What the red flag law can do is if you say you've got a minor who has made threats to himself or herself or to others, not just any guns that he might have could be confiscated but any guns in the house could be removed. That is a measure that the law includes.

Brian Lehrer: Kathleen in Beacon New York. Juliana, could you help me get Kathleen on the line? Kathleen in Beacon you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Kathleen: Hello.

Brian Lehrer: Hi, Kathleen.

Kathleen: Hi, thanks for taking my call. I'm a volunteer with Moms Demand Action and reaching for gun safety, I would like to give out a website that everybody in the country can go to. It's called onethingyoucando.org and it is one spelled out O-N-E. You can learn about the red flag laws in your state. The other thing that you can learn in this website is how you can volunteer in your community to teach about the red flag laws in your area. In Orange County where I live the sheriff is not really interested in taking guns away from anybody. It's not what he really wants to do. If the community is aware of it they can- if you're living with a loved one who is a danger to themselves, which so many many people are, this is a great resource.

Brian Lehrer: Kathleen, thank you for alerting us to that. To one of her points, Michael, do you get any indication that police on Long Island are reluctant to make red flag law reports maybe because they generally support gun rights or for any other reason?

Michael Gormley: Long Island and statewide I would say but what we found is that there is, and probably rightly so, a reluctance to take away something that's covered under the US constitution under the Second Amendment. It doesn't mean that they won't do it. It's just that they're cognizant of how major a deal this is. That, again, could be an impediment, but the law and the effort that's underway now is to try to push through that.

Now if you do have a community where even the judges could also be very reluctant to do this because it would impinge on the Second Amendment as some would argue, but there is a due process here. Critics say there's no due process before guns are taken away. That's not true. The red flag law is all about due process. It's a matter of keep pushing and alerting, and I would say if someone has pushed for a red flag law and was unable to get it that contact your local media and they'll take a look at that.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, a lot of due processes and some of the stories that you've been telling us that block red flag laws from being implemented in cases of people who seem dangerous. More generally, Andy, to the police officers question if you know, do police unions or rank and file generally want stricter gun control laws? In theory I would imagine they do because they don't want criminals who they have to confront to be armed or to be able to outgun them, but I don't know if the politics fall that neatly. Do you know?

Andy Newman: I don't really know overall. I know that certainly there are police chief groups nationwide who speak out about restricting access to guns. I don't know what their position is on red flag orders and red flag laws.

Brian Lehrer: Michael, you have anything on that at the local level?

Michael Gormley: I would say that the caller brings up a very good point. Remember, judges, district attorneys, are all elected and the smaller the county you get into, the more people know each other. That's always a concern in carrying out some kind of a law like this with a big gray area. That's why I suggest that contact your local news organization if you've got a problem with that because I think it's a very real concern that judges and district attorneys are going to be reluctant at least in some cases to enact the red flag law.

Brian Lehrer: Now, before we take a break and then come back and talk specifically about some of the electoral politics of this like Lee Zeldin the Congressman from the East End, who is the presumed leading candidate for the Republican nomination for governor of New York has been an opponent of red flag laws in the past, so there may be a very stark contrast on this if Zeldin is the nominee with whoever the Democratic nominee is. I want to get to that and whether Buffalo has changed anything about the Republican calculation on that.

Before we take a break and do that, Andy, I could put a big asterisk on any conclusions people may draw from your story about Suffolk County aggressively using red flag laws because of one fact that you report. I'm reading from your article, "The heavier use of red flag orders does not appear to have produced significant changes in gun death rates, compared with those in the rest of the state." Wait, full stop is this whole conversation, is the righteous indignation of the governor in the legislature, is the strengthen the red flag law really all just theater or the desperation to do something rather than nothing but evidence suggests this doesn't actually matter?

Andy Newman: I would say the problem is isn't that the evidence suggests it doesn't matter. The problem is that there's very very little evidence either way. The only comparison I was able to make was we looked at gun deaths both suicide and homicide in New York state versus in Suffolk County in 2018 which was the the last year before the law talk took effect, and in 2020 which was the first full year after the law effect. There was very little difference in the trend that state trends were similar to the Suffolk County trends. We don't have statistics that I could get hold of for 2021, so it could be that it just has taken a while but there needs to be more research and more data done.

There has been some research in Connecticut, for example, which was the first state to pass a red flag law. There was a study that found that for every 10 to 20 guns confiscated or for every 10 to 20 red flag orders, there was a reduction in suicide of one suicide. Some people might say that's great. We did 10 or 20 orders and one less person committed suicide. Other people might think that that's not a helpful enough thing to warrant confiscating people's guns but there just needs to be more research done.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Well, if you elaborate or if you extrapolate that out to many red flag orders around the country, even in the Suffolk County case 160 is what you documented, theoretically that would be 16 people who didn't kill themselves.

Andy Newman: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: That is at least potentially significant from-- We forget sometimes that most gun deaths are suicide deaths in this country. That's one way to save some of those lives, apparently. All right, we're going to take a break and come back on the electoral politics of this. We're also going to ask Michael as the Albany reporter in the room to preview tonight's televised debate between Hochul, Suozzi and Williams. Stay with us. Brian Lehrer on WNYC.

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Kathy Hochul: Thoughts and prayers won't fix this, but taking strong action will.

Brian Lehrer: Said Governor Kathy Huchul yesterday addressing people on the other side of the aisle.

Kathy Hochul: Heaven help you. If you can look at those images and not have a change of heart and say I'm in a position of authority and power and influence and I have a moral responsibility to do something.

Brian Lehrer: We're talking about New York State's red flag law strengthened by the legislature last week. The revision signed into law yesterday by Governor Hochul. Talking about it with Michael Gormley, Newsday's Albany reporter who has a recent article on how the state's red flag laws work, and Andy Newman New York Times correspondent covering poverty and social services in the greater New York City area. He is co-author of an article about Suffolk County published on Sunday called How a New York County Used The State's Red Flag Law to Seize 160 Guns. We're still inviting your stories, listeners, of any encounter with a red flag law for you or loved one or for you as a professional involved in the field or with any questions for our guests.

212-433-WNYC, 433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer. Michael, your article in Newsday which I will note came out back on May 25th notes that Congressman Lee Zeldin who represents Eastern Long Island and is a likely Republican nominee for governor this year was an opponent of even the old red flag law as of when your article came out. Do if the Buffalo shooting and the relevance of the red flag law to the case had it been implemented, and these new changes by the legislature just in the last few days have caused him to change his tune at all?

Michael Gormley: We haven't gotten any indication of that nor with other conservative Republicans except, of course, for those who have spoken and have paid a bit of a price for that. With Congressman Lee Zeldin I think it's important to note that he made that statement before some conservative supporters in a campaign stop. Politicians of both parties push the envelope a bit when they're with their base. There's a concern that if the next governor doesn't support red flag laws it's not going to change in the legislature. The Democrats are very supportive of this and they have super majorities right now in the Senate and the assembly. A governor from either party who would not support red flag laws would be sending a message that it wasn't important. For some that might be enough to ignore it or to slack off on it. There is a concern with that.

Brian Lehrer: We did see that one Republican member of Congress from upstate apparently has now had to withdraw his reelection bid because he decided after Buffalo and Uvalde that he now supports some new kinds of gun regulation. Apparently, that's not going to fly in his district. What about at the legislative level, Michael? You note that most Republicans in the state legislature voted against the old red flag law. This is a state legislature election year. What about the new additions to it that Governor Hochul signed yesterday, considering the new environment? What was the Republican headcount in the legislature for those?

Michael Gormley: There were 10 different bills including strengthening red flag and most Republicans voted against it in a block. It's important in this fractious period where in of politics that there was some Republican crossover on some of these bills. Frankly, if it wasn't an election year you may have seen more. Certainly these bills were led by Democrats opposed by most Republicans. There have been a lot of Republicans who have supported this because the red flag law isn't about just taking guns away.

It's about reacting to situations. One of the benefits I would suggest that goes beyond the statistics that you can use is that it brings more people with concerns about their mental health to some care or at least to a point where they could get care. That's a good result as well regardless of what happens to the guns.

Brian Lehrer: Kim in Westchester, you're on WNYC. Hi, Kim.

Kim: Hi, Brian. I'm curious. My son who is 20 is interested in getting a handgun but he has explosive anger disorder. It worries me that he would have access to a firearm. Is it applicable for me to alert authorities? He's never made any threats. He's a decent kind human being that works. However, it makes me very nervous when he has an actual diagnosis.

Brian Lehrer: Wow. That's a tough one. Andy, I guess I'm going to give it to you as someone who covers social services in New York but we're in a tough position advising a mother whether to report her son.

Andy Newman: If it's something that you are concerned about you can raise those concerns to the police or you can if you want to try to stop him from owning a gun you can go directly to the court website and file an order yourself. There is a an already existing law in New York called the Safe Act which requires a mental health provider who's already treating somebody, like a mandated reporter, to proactively report them if they think that that person is posing a danger to themselves or others.

I don't know if your son is under treatment and maybe if that's a question that could be put to whoever his therapist or mental healthcare provider is and just get their input on whether he seems a sufficient risk to ask for a red flag order against him. It's obviously an incredibly fraught thing. There are parents who red flag their kids and the kid doesn't talk to them for a year because it's a very a big step and not to be taken lightly.

Kim: I think it's a good idea to have the doctor involved. You just suggested though. I think that's a way to have a third party impartially making that decision or helping the parents make that decision. That's actually very good and very helpful.

Brian Lehrer: That's actually part of the new law that a health professional has that standing to start a red flag law process where they didn't before. Michael, do I understand that correctly?

Michael Gormley: Yes. I would mention that the caller brings up a very good point. As I understand her son hasn't gotten a pistol permit yet. That's a very involved process in New York state. If she has a concern and she can't convey that adequately to her son, keep in mind that the application for a pistol permit in New York State is going to require several people to send in written recommendations. Then that goes to a judge. If you feel that it's enough of a concern you could contact the judges directly before a pistol permit is ever issued.

Brian Lehrer: Kim, good luck. I hope both you and he are well. Michael, before you go, as the Albany reporter in the room can you give us a preview of tonight's first televised debate between Hochul, Suozzi and Williams for the Democratic nomination for governor? What might viewers expect?

Michael Gormley: I think you're going to find it be a very high stakes debate, keeping in mind that the background of this is that the next poll, the Sienna College Poll, is probably going to be coming out next week based on their history. What the candidates all have to do is to show an increase in their polling just for popularity but just for fundraising, going into this last stretch. Tom Suozzi the Congressman from Long Island is going to continue to hammer Governor Hochul on her management of New York State. Tom Suozzi will emphasize that he's the only one in the field, the Democratic field, who has management experience.

He was a mayor of Glen Cove and he was the the county executive in Nassau County. That's part of his argument. He'll argue that the governor is too progressive in some areas and that doesn't have the management experience. Now Jumaane Williams, this is a fascinating moment for him because he relates very well to people one on one and in groups but he hasn't had enough money to do TV ads. This free media that he's going to get tonight is very important. It's very late in the race but he's going to be introducing himself to a lot of New Yorkers.

It's a key moment for him. For Governor Hochul she will make sure she's getting traction throughout the state, which is what she's been working on. In the city which is critical in a primary, but also in the suburbs. It's a difficult balance show. I'm sure she'll have to defend the hundreds of millions of dollars in state aid that's going to build the new Buffalo Bill Stadium, as Mr. Williams and Mr. Suozzi have called corporate welfare. There's a lot of things that the governor can point to as successes, progressive and

responsible measures, but she's going to be tested very hard for the first time.

Brian Lehrer: All right, viewers, listeners, that debate is at seven o'clock tonight for an hour on Channel 2 in The City and on WCBS Radio, our lead segment tomorrow will be excerpts and your reactions to that debate and we'll break it down with some analysis. That's tomorrow morning at 10:00 right here after the Democrats for Governor debate on TV for the first time tonight. We thank Michael Gormley, Newsday's Albany reporter, and Andy Newman, New York Times correspondent covering poverty and social services in the greater New York City area. Thank you both. Very informative, good discussion. We appreciate it.

Michael Gormley: Thank you.

Andy Newman: Thanks, Brian.

 

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