[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Most of the victims of Sunday's fire in The Bronx were immigrants from the West African nation of Gambia, or officially, The Gambia, like The Bronx. Most other Americans know little about the country or the immigrants who came from there or why, so we're going to take some time now to talk about the place and the people. The Gambia is a small country on the coast of West Africa. It's shaped kind of like a long, thin rectangle, you might say, that borders the Atlantic Ocean on the west, and is otherwise completely surrounded by the nation of Senegal. The population of The Gambia is about 1.8 million people, small for a country.

The population of The Bronx alone is 1.5 million. Brooklyn is 2.7. The Gambia was ruled mostly by the British in the colonial era. It won its independence in 1965. The current president is Adama Barrow, elected in 2017 and re-elected last year, just in December, in elections generally considered free and fair, after a 24-year dictatorship by Yahya Jammeh. We will meet a leader of New York's Gambian community in just a minute, but first, the names of the 17 people who died in the fire have now been released as of just this morning. I want to say those names out loud to honor them. Here's the CNN list. It has names, ages, and genders.

Fatoumata Drammeh, 50, female. Foutmala Drammeh, 21, female. Muhammed Drammeh, 12, male. Nyumaaisha Drammeh, 19, female. Haji Dukary, 49, male. Fatoumata Dukureh, 5, female. Haja Dukureh, 37, female. Mariam Dukureh, 11, female. Mustapha Dukureh, 12, male. Omar Jambang, 6, male. Sera Janneh, 27, female. Haouwa Mahamadou, forgive me, 5, female. Seydou Toure, 12, male. Fatoumata Tunkara, 43, female. Isatou Jabbie, 31, female. Haji Jawara, 47, male. Ousmane Konteh, age 2, male. The names of the people who died in The Bronx apartment building fire Sunday, now released to the public by the fire department.

With us now is Salim Drammeh, president of the Gambian Youth Organization, a non-profit based in The Bronx not far from the Twin Parks Northwest building. In a few minutes, we're also, I believe, going to be joined by the ambassador to the US from The Gambia. Salim Drammeh, welcome to WNYC, thank you so much for coming on with us today, and I'm so sorry it's under these circumstances. Hello.

Salim Drammeh: Hello. Thank you so much for having me. Oh, God. I'm so sorry, as you read those names, it's quite a bit-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Emotional. There's no other possible response than what you're feeling right now, and there's no shame in tearing up. Some of those people-- One of the things that strikes me, is that a number of those people were from the same family. I believe there was one family where five people were killed, and another one with several. One of those families where I kept reading the same last name, is the same last name as yours. Were these your relatives, any of them taken in the fire?

Salim Drammeh: No. They were not my relatives, but I did meet with the father of the individuals that passed away, yesterday at a lobby. Yes, it's very, very, very emotional. We did have one member, Sera Janneh, who also did pass away that we knew personally, who was an absolutely amazing human being, and we pray that God grants her soul in heaven.

Brian Lehrer: What can you say about the decisions or conditions facing surviving family members, or just survivors of the fire from the building, whose homes are affected?

Salim Drammeh: Yes, so some of the decisions-- [chokes up]

Brian Lehrer: It's all right. You know what, take a second, and in the meantime, I want to open up the phones and invite anyone from the Gambian community in New York who happens to be listening to call in and you could pay tribute to any of the victims if you knew them personally. Even if you didn't know them personally if there's anything you want to say, or talk about your country of origin, and talk about your heritage, and talk about why you came to this country, and talk about the importance of having a Gambian community in The Bronx.

If anybody is listening from the Gambian community, I know it's small in the city, but maybe we have some listeners now. 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692 or anyone with questions for our guest, Salim Drammeh, president of the Gambian Youth Organization based near the building in The Bronx. Salim, you're all right?

Salim Drammeh: Yes, I'm good. I'm fine. I can speak about the decisions, the conditions families are facing. I'm so sorry about that, again. We've been meeting with these family members, as I mentioned, yesterday. One of the most important things that we have noticed, these families are traumatized. They're grieving and they're mourning their lost ones. The least that we can do for them is not try to push families back into that building, because families do not feel safe. They need to be relocated to a safe and proper permanent housing. That's what needs to be happening. We should not be trying to push families back to that building.

Brian Lehrer: Is it also because of the trauma that they've now experienced in that building?

Salim Drammeh: Yes. Oh, yes. For sure, for sure. Literally, two kids walked in and you could see the trauma on their face. As I was saying hi to them, they could not even greet me back. It's because of what happened that they're traumatized. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Who is that up to, that relocation effort? Who would have to do that and make the decision, and facilitate it? Is it the city government?

Salim Drammeh: Yes. The city government. The city government has been really helpful. They [unintelligible 00:07:48] that families do not want to stay at the building, they have the choice of either returning back to the hotels.

Brian Lehrer: As far as the decision whether to bring the victims' bodies back to The Gambia, or take care of them here, is that primarily shaping up to be a financial decision for those survivors, and do they need help with that financially? It looks like fundraising efforts are underway.

Salim Drammeh: Yes, so that decision of families wanting to be buried back home, that's actually a religious or it can be a cultural decision that they want. Also, there is some financial hardships that families may face. There's been amazing outpour of support, again the city has been really supportive. They do have burial service funds available that families can go ahead and apply for that will take care of any kind of cost there with burials.

Brian Lehrer: To give everybody else a little bit of background about the community, how many Gambians overall would you say live in New York today, if you have a sense of that?

Salim Drammeh: That's difficult because even when you're talking to the consulate, they didn't have a concrete number. [unintelligible 00:09:23] We can say more than 10,000 families probably live in New York City.

Brian Lehrer: That's a lot. Are there some most common areas? I guess that part of The Bronx, based on the names that I read, of the dead, would you say that most of all of them were Gambian?

Salim Drammeh: Yes, all of them that you read, they were Gambian.

Brian Lehrer: That's kind of a Gambian neighborhood.

Salim Drammeh: Yes, it's kind of Gambian. It's a mixture, we have a huge Hispanic population as well. African-American population as well. There's a huge population of Gambians, especially in District 15, 14-- In congressional district 15 in general.

Brian Lehrer: Was there a period of time in recent decades when there was the most Gambian immigration to the United States or to New York? If so, was that for a particular reason, certain particular conditions in the country?

Salim Drammeh: Yes, we could say 1980s to early 2000s. Even my father came in like 1990 or to the United States again, because, to get a better life, to get a better education, to get a better life for their children. Also, [unintelligible 00:10:59] also to help back home.

Brian Lehrer: What would you consider the biggest issues generally facing the Gambian community in New York these days or if I had asked you on the day before the fire, what would you have said?

Salim Drammeh: The biggest issues, we have connection with all immigrant issues. We are ignored, so to say. For example, in this building, the builder received numerous complaints that have been ignored. These non-minority communities since you can say, even the fire has been happening since the '70s till now, predominantly in where minority communities. We lost many families across immigrant communities. We have lack of adequate housing. We're facing discrimination, racism. We have lack of access to resources.

Brian Lehrer: I'm curious if life got harder for Gambians in New York under Donald Trump's immigration policies, you said immigration issues like other immigrants were near the top of your list. If many people got deported or found it harder to become citizens or anything like that, Trump generally did not want any immigration from Africa. Some of our listeners will remember he even used foul language to describe those countries as a group, as sources of immigration. Was there particular pressure then, and has it eased in any particular ways under Biden?

Salim Drammeh: Yes. Even Donald Trump-- Because Gambia is not 100% Muslim country, but it's more than like 90% Muslim. Even the Muslim ban again by Donald Trump was a direct target to Muslim immigrant community. You can say Trump's immigration policies have proven to be targeting background [unintelligible 00:13:06] immigrant communities. The Gambian community in NYC they have faced many deportation and illegal detention. My uncle is example of one. They tried to deport my uncle maybe two times. We had to stand up and advocate for him. I think this was about three years ago. We actually had to stand up and advocate for my uncle, but right now he's here with us.

Without that advocacy and the support of some senior officials, somebody like this, we would not have my uncle in here.

Brian Lehrer: I see that we have with us on the line now for just a few minutes, the Gambian Ambassador to the United States, his name is Dawda Docka Fadera. Again, he is Gambia's ambassador to the United States. I understand that he had come up from D.C where he's based as ambassador to The Bronx after the fire to lend support from the consulate. Ambassador, are you there? If so, welcome to WNYC.

Dawda Docka Fadera: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. I'm right here.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

Dawda Docka Fadera: Yes. Thank you so--

Brian Lehrer: I can hear you well. Am I right that you came up from D.C where you're stationed to The Bronx after the fire? If so, what role have you been hoping to play?

Dawda Docka Fadera: Absolutely. This was a horrific fire incident that took so many lives of our people and left many struggling for their lives. The scale of this devastation is [unintelligible 00:14:42] that when it got to my notice and I decided quickly to go down to The Bronx to be with the community, to be with Imams, the youth leaders, the community leaders, to work with local authorities, to help establish what exactly happened, to help account for our citizens who are missing, help to know how many are dead, how many are wounded, want to know exactly how many Gambians are impacted by this disaster.

These are issues we've been engaged with the local authorities and the community leaders to get answers to. I can tell you here that we are very grateful to the local authorities on the ground from the governor to the mayor and other elected representatives, everyone was on one page working on this matter. We have still frustration about getting the details and the specifics of our citizens who are involved in this. I personally went around from hotel to hotel, trying to talk to families and trying to know exactly who are missing. Everybody is confused because we can understand this is COVID period. I went to the hospitals, but I am not allowed to enter. I cannot enter.

I understand that, but we don't have the information. We want to know how many are dead. Gambia is a Muslim majority country. Our custom as Muslims demand that our dead are buried expeditiously when they died through Islamic customs. We can understand what they are doing, but we'll be happy to know how many are dead and how soon we are going to receive our deceased so that we can give them a fitting funeral.

Brian Lehrer: Are you asking the US government in Washington since your ambassador to the country for help for the victims? Is that part of your role?

Dawda Docka Fadera: Oh, well, so far, yes. So far we are dealing with the local authorities in New York, the state of New York, and the city of New York. State Department also, of course, they are fully aware of what we are doing. We are keeping them informed about our activities down on the ground, but specifically, we haven't asked them of helping us to get our people because we think we can handle that with the local authorities in New York.

Brian Lehrer: To broaden out for just a second, ambassador. Could you tell Americans listening a little bit about your country's relationship with the United States? Do you consider the US an ally? Do you get USAID? Anything like that?

Dawda Docka Fadera: Absolutely. US is one of our strongest friends and ally. We have a lot in common we share, we are all a democracy. I'm sure you may be aware Gambia from independence until 1994, we were a beacon of light in terms of democracy, respect for human rights in the sub-region. We were an important voice and a model of democracy in our sub-region. I dare say around the world until 1994, when we had a military coup that completely decimated our democratic institution, and the dictator continues to rule our country for more than two decades. It was until 2016 that we took our country back. US was very, very supportive, helping Gambians to regain our country from dictatorship.

Since we come back to democracy, United States has continued to stand by us, giving us support alongside our other partners so that we continue to entrench our democratic credentials and regain our past lost glory.

Brian Lehrer: Even under Trump,

Dawda Docka Fadera: Even under Donald Trump. Yes. America and Gambia, we have strong relationship, even people to people. It doesn't matter what government's in there. We have a strong diaspora here in the US, Gambian Americans, and also generally the Black Americans. A lot of them really trace their roots back to where we come from, our sub-region. We have cultural linkages with America. We have investment, which is not too high, but we want to see more American investment on the ground too. We are working to do that. Obviously, it doesn't matter which government is in the White House. The relationship between the US and Gambia has always been very strong.

Brian Lehrer: I see that your president was reelected just last month in elections considered free and fair by outside observers, but the losing candidates, falsely claim fraud. We have some experience with that recently in this country, too. Any advice on how to handle fraudulent claims of election fraud?

Ambassador Dawda Docka Fadera: [chuckles] Absolutely. I think the key is to have strong institutions, strong judiciary, because, of course, US your democracy had been challenged, we are aware because we follow your politics here closely. Obviously, we can expect now around the world, democracies will be challenged, but I think everybody should work together to defend democracy. Because as I always tell my colleagues, democratic credential is not an exclusive of any geographic region or race, these are universal values. Every individual need freedom. We want to be free, we want to think freely, we want to associate freely, we want to choose our leader that we trust can run our affairs.

Democracy I think is important and is the model that really can ensure national security and global security at the [unintelligible 00:20:58] We should all fight for it but the key is the strong institution. During the dictatorship in The Gambia, our judiciary was simply a law firm for the executive. Everything is decided in the statehouse and the judiciary will simply pass the orders from there. This is completely changed now, we have a free judiciary. During the last five years after election, the president himself been to court on important issues that are important to him and he lost, I think, two of them. One of them to an ordinary environmental group in a provincial town.

They took the government to court on a matter of environment and they won. Another one was when the president nominated a particular MP-- National Assembly member. The constitution gave our president the power to nominate five national assembly members, and they sit in national assembly like any other elected national assembly member lawmaker.

One of them, the president decided this person is no longer serving our interest as the government, and he wanted to remove her, but the person went to court and said, "No, although you appointed me, I don't think you have power to remove me from here." The matter went to court and the lower court decided in favor of the government, and the matter was appealed to the Supreme Court. All the judges in the Supreme Court are appointed by this sitting president. Guess what? The Supreme Court ruled in favor of the individual.

Brian Lehrer: Ruled against the person who appointed them. That's a wonderful--

Ambassador Dawda Docka Fadera: Absolutely.

Brian: A wonderful example of an independent--

Ambassador Dawda Docka Fadera: That tells you the level of the freedom of our judiciary.

Brian Lehrer: It's a wonderful story of the importance of an independent judiciary and one that values the rule of law over loyalty to the people who appoint them. Let me ask you one more thing, and I appreciate how much time you've given us Ambassador. Since you mentioned an environmental group, we cover climate a lot on this show, and I'm just curious so our listeners can get a perspective from a country far from the United States and very different in many ways from the United States. Has climate change already affected The Gambia in ways you can cite?

Ambassador Dawda Docka Fadera: Absolutely. Gambia is one of the least polluting countries in the world, but the impact of climate change in our country is devastating. A very small country of about 13,000 square miles, and we border Atlantic Ocean. The erosion is really eating our land, the high sea levels, and now the irregular rainfall [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Coastal erosion along the coast.

Ambassador Dawda Docka Fadera: Coastal erosion, yes, really, it's a big problem for us caused by climate change. We are an agricultural country too, but nowadays, it is very difficult because we are rainfed agriculture. So far, we are doing that, but because of climate change now, sometimes we have too much rain that will inundate our land, the farmers their land, and destroy all the crops. Sometimes, we simply have no rain. Is very irregular and like I said, we are the least polluting nation, but the brunt of the impact of climate change is huge for our country. That's why we too, I'm sure your listeners will be happy to hear this, I'm sure you followed the recently concluded climate--

Brian Lehrer: The COP26 climate summit, yes.

Ambassador Dawda Docka Fadera: COP26, absolutely. I'm sure you've heard that Gambia is, I think, the only country that is said to be on track to meet our objectives.

Brian Lehrer: Ambassador Dawda Docka Fadera, The Gambia's ambassador to the United States. Thank you so much for your time, good luck to you and everyone you represent.

Ambassador Dawda Docka Fadera: Thank you for having me. Thank you so much.

Brian Lehrer: We have a few minutes left with Salim Drammeh, president of the Gambian Youth Organization, a nonprofit based in The Bronx, not far from the building, Twin Parks Northwest, where the fire took place on Sunday and 17 people were killed all of them, according to Salim, of Gambian heritage. Salim, let me just take one or two phone calls for you before we run out of time. Here's Muhammad originally from Sierra Leone, nearby country, now in Buffalo. Muhammad, you're on WNYC. Because we ran a little long with the Ambassador, we've got about 30 seconds for you. Hi, there.

Muhammad: Hi, thank you for taking my call. Yes, I'm from the West African republic and an Australian. I've lived in New York City for eight years, I've also lived in The Gambia for six months, that was in 2015. I just wanted to pay respect for the Gambian community for those who died and for the bereaved family and also highlight that this is not the first time that the Gambian community is victim of a fire. I guess it's time to do something about it, like community education and community reach out. Since I've only a second, thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. One more, Tia, in The Bronx, you are on WNYC. Hello, Tia. Tia, are you there?

Tia: Oh, hello, hi. I'm a Red Cross worker, I was at the fire, at the response center. We keep strict confidentiality but I also was a visitor to the Peace Corps site in The Gambia. What I want to speak to is the great hospitality of the Gambian people. Other cultures say we're all family, but when you're a visitor, white visitor in The Gambia, you're greeted with, "How are you? How is your mother? How is your father on and on and on?" This is a culture that sees the community as family and people in that building, even if they have not lost a family member, they feel that a family member has been lost.

Brian Lehrer: Tia, I'm going to leave it there for time, but thank you very much for that testimonial kind of. Salim Drammeh, as we run out of time, I don't know if there's anything you wanted to say to amplify anything the ambassador said, or would you just give the contact information may be for the GoFundMe page that your organization has set up or any other ways that our listeners can help?

Salim Drammeh: I want to say thank you for having me on this show, and I just wanted to say thank you to the overwhelming support of not only folks in New York, not only folks in The Bronx but all over the world. This is what we look for, this is what we call community. The reason why we see the funds rising is because as what the previous speaker said, that everyone is thinking about what if this was my family? If I was in this situation, what would I do? I just want totally thank you to everyone who have donated and who continues to donate.

We have received overwhelming donations at our community center and I just want to express my gratitude to everyone from, especially the city officials, various office of immigrant affairs has been amazing. Everyone from the [unintelligible 00:29:05] president have been amazing, they have shown overwhelming support to us, and I just want to say thank you to each and every one of them.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to post the link to the GoFundMe page on our website. Listeners, if you want to go to wnyc.org and click on Brian Lehrer Show, you can find out more. Salim Drammeh is president of the Gambian Youth Organization, a nonprofit based in The Bronx, not far from that building known as Twin Parks Northwest. Thank you so much for your time, good luck to you and everyone.

Salim Drammeh: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Copyright © 2022 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.