[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC and now with early voting underway in the New York primaries ranked-choice voting strategies and your ranked-choice voting choices. Listeners, if you have voted already in early voting over the weekend, or mailed in your absentee ballot, how did you decide on your second choice for mayor or for that matter, third, fourth, or fifth choice? (646) 435-7280.

You can also call with your questions about ranked-choice voting strategies, because with us, for this, is WNYC Senior Political Reporter, Brigid Bergin, who has an article on Gothamist called How To Be a Smarter Ranked-Choice Voter: Do's and Don'ts. Good morning, Brigid.

Brigid Bergin: Good morning, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Thanks for the advice to come, people really need it. Again, listeners, if you have your own story to tell about how you picked your second choice or below, call in or questions about your ranked-choice voting strategy, (646) 435-7280, (646) 435-7280, or tweet @BrianLehrer.

Brigid, before we get to your actual list of do's and don'ts, can we touch on the news that more members of the New York City congressional delegation have been announcing their second choice endorsements? Some of these are pretty newsworthy like Congressman Ritchie Torres from the Bronx who has been one of the most important supporters of Andrew Yang has now named as his second choice Eric Adams, who's considered Yang's main rival. Can you do some political analyst analysis of what's up with Congressman Ritchie Torres?

Brigid Bergin: Sure. I think when you think about Adams and Yang, they're also among the more moderate candidates in this race and while you're right, they absolutely are rivals because they have been leading these polls from the beginning. They're also more similar ideologically than the other candidates. It's not actually that surprising to me that Congressman Torres would pick Eric Adams as his number two, and really this race is still so messy.

In a ranked-choice system, those number two choices are going to be really important. Adams has been leading in some of the latest polls, but it's not by such a dramatic margin that those number two's won't make a big difference. I think ultimately if he does win, this gives Congressman Torres both some cover to position himself as an ally and supporter, but it's a little bit of hedging his bets.

Brian Lehrer: Also Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, who has endorsed Maya Wiley and Congressman Gregory Meeks, who has endorsed Ray McGuire have also now come out for Adams as their number two. What's up with all that consolidation? They seem to be landing on the same number two choice, at least this group of members of Congress from New York City and especially in Hakeem Jeffries case where Wiley and Adams are the most diametrically opposed top contenders on the central issue of policing.

Brigid Bergin: Absolutely. What's so interesting, Brian, I was out this weekend talking to voters and I was actually out in Congressman Meeks' district. I was talking to voters in the Rockaways and South Ozone Park. I think when those of us who are deep in the political mud and do this type of analysis based on how people align on the political spectrum and the positions they're taking, when voters go to make their choices, they're not necessarily making their decisions in the way that we look at how these candidates line up against positions.

When I talked to voters, they would tell me their ranks and they wouldn't necessarily fit into some neat spectrum of ideological continuum. I think, again, these representatives are probably hearing from their districts. I was hearing a slight drumbeat of support for Adams out in the Rockaways and South Ozone Park. As you say, a very unofficial unscientific sample of voters.

I also heard people talking about Wiley, Garcia, Yang. The only person people didn't mention to me was McGuire. I think those officials are probably also hearing from their community and seeing how some of the other elected officials are lining up within those respective areas, and not unlike Congressman Torres, it's a little bit of hedging your bets. You get the credit for giving some support if you endorse these candidates who are viable contenders as number two but you can stick with your top choice as the vote with your heart. Like they say in ranked-choice voting.

Brian Lehrer: Also on endorsements, I just want to throw in a further correction to something that we got wrong on the show earlier this morning. That is about who Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is endorsing in the City Council race for the seat in Brooklyn that Brad Lander holds right now, he's leaving because of term limits. This is the district representing Cobble Hill, Carroll Gardens, Gowanus, Park Slope, Windsor Terrace, Borough Park, Kensington.

Here is what we think after it got stated differently earlier is the actual most accurate version of who AOC is endorsing there. Technically, it's her courage to change PAC, Political Action Committee, which is affiliated with her. Actually, has four of the candidates listed in that district on their website in the giant list of endorsements. There are Brandon West and Shahana Hanif and Justin Krebs and Briget Rein.

Brigid Bergin, I don't know if you have anything to say about that particular race or what it means when AOC's Political Action Committee endorses four different candidates for City Council apparently without ranking them?

Brigid Bergin: Well, I think it's a sign that particularly from a progressive standpoint that there are a lot of strong choices and voters who are interested in finding a candidate who is the most progressive, which is certainly one of the considerations that Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez has applied to her endorsements. That there's more than one candidate that could be the winner and fit that criteria. Lucky to the voters in District 39 to have so many good options.

Brian Lehrer: One final bit of endorsement news before we go on to your ranked-choice voting strategies article. It's really non-endorsement news because Reverend Al Sharpton, who reportedly said he would announce an endorsement this month,

we've talked about that on the show, anticipating Reverend Sharpton's endorsement. He now has announced that he will not endorse anyone and the rev's endorsement could be one of those that matter. What's your take on why he's remaining neutral?

Brigid Bergin: Absolutely. My colleague David Cruz was at the House of Justice when Reverend Sharpton said he would make an endorsement and then he went there again this past Saturday when Reverend Sharpton said that instead he will not be making an endorsement. I think it speaks to the fact that this race is still really, really messy. That if you think you know who's going to win, well, you're taking a really big gamble and his preference at this point, he said there was no one he felt like he needed to say anything to stop, and so instead the focus is going to be on early voting and educating voters about ranked-choice voting.

It's probably the safest option for someone. At this point it really is still anybody's game. We've got several more days. Who knows how many more news cycles of strange things that could happen before next Tuesday?

Based on the turnout that we've seen in early voting this past weekend, just about 30,000 people who participated, those numbers are pretty low and we haven't had early voting in an open municipal primary ever. This is new for people. A lot of people might be just saving up all of their decision-making for that last day, June 22nd.

We also have another mayoral debate this coming Wednesday night. People might want to have one more chance to see these candidates side-by-side making their pitch before they ultimately make their decisions. I think the Reverend is probably staying out of it because it is a smarter strategy if you want to be able to then align yourself with whoever the winner is, going forward.

Brian Lehrer: It's particularly interesting in his case, nonetheless, because so much of his career has been trying to deal with justice as it pertains to police treatment of especially African-American New Yorkers and Americans, and that's such a central issue in this race with Wiley and Adams, in particular, on opposite sides of things, but Reverend Sharpton is staying out of it, which could be read as he'd give either of those two a shot, or it could be read even more broadly than that.

All right. Ranked-choice voting strategies. Voters can choose up to five candidates for mayor and most other offices. Here is Mayor de Blasio on this show on Friday with a strategy he thinks is important for voters to consider.

Mayor de Blasio: Your fifth vote may still be alive in this process and it could be a very close election. I would urge people don't leave anything blank. Literally, do the work, do the thinking to get one to five. Leave off the people you absolutely can't stand, of course, but push hard to see if you can find five choices in order, because that's how you actually maximize the impact of your ballot.

Brian Lehrer: Brigid, is that standard advice that experts are advising people with, make the full five choices that you're entitled to?

Brigid Bergin: Yes. I had a conversation with the head of the education campaign

for Rank the Vote NYC last week, and he said something very similar to me, and the way he framed it, in case anyone feels competitive, he said, "You should figure out how to rank as many candidates as you can because if you don't, someone else will". If you don't want some other voters to have more say in this election than you, then try to figure out how to fill those slots because somebody else will.

Brian Lehrer: Yet another strategy is to not rank anybody who you really wouldn't want in office. Seems obvious in a way, but why do the experts keep saying that out loud?

Brigid Bergin: Well, I think this is the ranked-choice voting conundrum that we're all facing. You have this opportunity to rank up to five and there's lots of information out there to try to make your decisions to come up with your rank. However, if you get to the point where there are candidates that you just don't want to help in any way, what you need to understand is if you put a candidate on your ballot, no matter what spot you put them in, in the top spot, in the fifth spot, that depending on how the votes are tallied and how your other candidates do, that you ultimately may be helping to tip the balance in favor of this person that if you don't like them, but you put them on your ballot, you may help win. Help secure a victory.

It's a decision that you need to take seriously about who you give your support to, because ultimately when you do that, you are potentially helping that person win the election, and even if they are your least favorite if you can live with them, great, put them on your ballot. If you truly do not want to see them in office, well, then why would you put them on your ballot and support their pursuit of getting there.

It's just like in a winner-take-all election, you vote for the person that you want to win. If you don't want in any way to see this person win, well, then don't put them on in your fifth spot, let alone somewhere else.

Brian Lehrer: I guess these two pieces of advice could be seen as coming in conflict with each other, make sure to fill out all five of your ranked-choice options that are available to you, but make sure to exclude the ones you really couldn't live with. I guess those could come into conflict with each other, except, luckily or unluckily, there are 13 candidates for mayor listed on the ballot, so I guess you could do both. John in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with our Senior Reporter for Politics, Brigid Bergin. Hi, John.

John: Hi. How are you doing, Brian? As an amateur statistician, it's occurred to me that if one really supports one candidate, putting them in the first place and leaving the second spot blank gives them a statistical advantage by giving less weight to their opponents. Wonder what you think of that.

Brian Lehrer: Wow. Can you even do that, Brigid? Can you vote for a number one, leave number two blank, but then vote for three, four and five?

Brigid Bergin: I will answer cautiously because I like to pull up my rules from the Board of Elections about how they will tally their votes. Yes, you could vote for one, but what I think, and I say this cautiously, so I would want to double confirm this, but I  

think that it would not treat that as a skip to number two. I think it would just bump your choices up.

I don't think that it would-- I say that again with some caution. I think to the caller's idea of supporting potentially just a single candidate and not giving any additional support to other candidates, there are risks/rewards with that strategy as well, that people call bullet voting.

Yes, you could potentially be supporting just your individual candidate, but if for some reason, if that candidate comes in last place, then your vote has nowhere to be redistributed to and they say- they term as exhaustion. Your ballot is exhausted at that point, but you could also argue then you're not helping anyone else. These are unchartered waters for those of us here in New York City doing it for the first time.

Brian Lehrer: Gregory in Harlem is going to tell us how he decided on second place and down. Gregory, you're on WNYC. Thanks for calling in.

Gregory: Good morning, Brian. Thank you very much for taking my call. I really want a woman to be our next mayor. What I've done is ranked the first three, all the women, and then, because I'm not sure of any of the other men, so I've chosen Ray McGuire as fourth and as fifth Paperboy Love Prince.

Brian Lehrer: Paperboy Prince. Among your top three, that would be in some order, Maya Wiley--

Gregory: Kathryn first.

Brian Lehrer: Okay. Kathryn Garcia is your first choice.

Gregory: Yes. Then Maya and then Dianne.

Brian Lehrer: How did you decide on who to put at the top?

Gregory: I decided that-- Well, Kathryn Garcia, to me, she's the most qualified, but if I put her first and Maya second, then my two top ranks, because I can't decide between either one of them. Maya stays in as second. Again, even if my final women's choice comes in, then I'll be satisfied because we will have a woman as our mayor.

Brian Lehrer: Gregory, thank you so much. Vic in Manhattan has a ranked-choice voting strategy question, I think. Hi, Vic, You're on WNYC.

Vic: Yes. Good morning. What would happen if I voted for my first choice also was my second, third, fourth, and fifth? Would that increase my candidate's chances and/or would I be voided? My ballot will be voided?

Brigid Bergin: Your ballot would not be voided, but it wouldn't count more than once. It's, I think, the equivalent of bullet voting because, essentially, that would give your vote more power and you can only pick a candidate for a single rank. It would

still count for the first tally, but it wouldn't move anywhere because it would already be with that candidate.

Brian Lehrer: I hope that's clear, Vic. Thank you very much. Now, another of your strategies from your Gothamist article is not exactly political, it simply says "Don't get frustrated". Why did you include that?

Brigid Bergin: Well, this is a different kind of voting. It's new for poll workers. It's new for voters. It's new for everybody, and this change after this year that we've all been through, we've to give ourselves a little grace as we go through this process. I talked to voters on the first day of early voting. These were the people who had made up their minds, knew who they wanted to support, maybe had less time to go in on primary day.

Some of those people had written down all their ranks and brought them in on a little piece of paper so they could do it quickly when they were in the voting booth. You can do that. You can bring in your voting guide if that helps you, but just keep in mind that everybody's trying to do their best and some people will make mistakes.

If you fill out your ballot incorrectly and you fill, say, you do what this voter just- this caller just described, and you fill in more than one candidate for that first rank, when you put it into the scanner machine, a error message should pop up and said, "You filled in your ballot incorrectly. Would you like to correct it?" You can say "Yes", and you are eligible for up to two more ballots that you can attempt to fill incorrectly.

If you hit, "No", it will override it. It will accept your incorrect ballot, but that all means it may take you a little bit more time to fill out your ballot than perhaps you're used to. You might have to read things a little bit more carefully than when you normally go and vote and you just know exactly the one person you wanted to vote for and you just find them.

As you said, Brian, there were 13 mayoral candidates on the Democratic primary ballot. You have to read through and find all the names and correspond them with the column for the choice you want to enter them into. It takes a little bit of effort. It's not a ton. We do this kind of stuff all the time, but the advice to not get frustrated was to just so that you can go in in the right frame of mind.

Know that you're doing something for the first time, making it a little bit more challenging than perhaps when we've done it over and over. That's okay. We're all going to get through it.

Brian Lehrer: One more before we run out of time. Avi in Flatbush, you're on WNYC. High, Avi. We have 30 seconds for you.

Avi: Hi. I was just wondering if another reason to put in a fifth person at the end is to increase that 50% threshold that someone has to meet since they have to reach 50% of the number of votes cast versus the number of registered voters. Putting, like if I'm against Adams, putting someone like Paperboy Prince fifth, just so they have more of a threshold to meet if that makes sense.

Brian Lehrer: Brigid.

Brigid Bergin: Yes, that's a really interesting argument by filling out all slots, do you increase the pool so that it becomes more difficult for a candidate to achieve the over 50% or to be among the final two and to get that majority? That sounds like an interesting strategy. I think, ultimately, voters need to make decisions about who they think should serve in that office and make a decision based on if you think this person has the positions that you agree with and can do the job. If that's the candidate that you think can do it, then fill out all five of them.

Brian Lehrer: This conversation has been about how to come up with your own ranked-choice voting strategies. We should do another one, Brigid, soon on how they will actually count the ranked-choice votes. Because it's much easier to figure out how to do ranked-choice voting than how to count ranked-choice voting. I think the bottom line here is, folks, remember that your second choice and beyond really are very likely to matter because with so many candidates and so many people starting out undecided, nobody is likely to get to 50% on the first ballot, not even Paperboy Prince.

Chances are, second choices and maybe third choices are really, really going to matter in this race. If everybody does what those various members of Congress do that we talked about at the beginning of the segment, they've all endorsed people who are not Eric Adams, but now they've all endorsed Eric Adams second. If everybody does that, Eric Adams is going to win.

Apply that to the candidate of your choice. That's where ranked-choice voting really matters. WNYC's Brigid Bergin has a Gothamist article on ranked-choice voting strategies. You can see the gothamist.com voters guide for more information about the candidates. Brigid, I have a feeling we'll talk again.

Brigid Bergin: [chuckles] Looking forward to it.

Copyright © 2021 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.