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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. It's been one week now since New York City's new rules for putting out the trash took effect. Containers, not bags. How's it going for your building or at your house, and do you think it's working or will work to keep the city looking better and more rat-free? 212-433-WNYC. Give us a call as we're about to speak to the New York City Sanitation Commissioner.

Nearly every council member we spoke to during our 51 council members in 52-week series mentioned trash and rats as the cause for the most number of calls from constituents, or among the top few reasons that constituents contacted their office, trash and rats. Tourists remark on the shockingly filthy nature of our streets compared to other places that they've been.

We hear your calls whenever the subject comes up on the show, so I feel confident when I say New Yorkers are tired of living amongst garbage in the way that we have. We have this containers mandate now, and there's more to this policy coming that I think we're about to hear unveiled right now by Sanitation Commissioner Jessica Tisch, who does join us now. Commissioner, welcome back to WNYC.

Jessica Tisch: Thanks for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: I know you have an announcement to make regarding new plans to deal with residential trash. You want to start there?

Jessica Tisch: We sure do. As you know, and as you said, we have been working on containerization of trash in the city for about the last year, and we have made a tremendous amount of progress. Last week, we began requiring all businesses to put their trash in containers, and we have previously announced a similar upcoming requirement for lower-density buildings of one to nine units to put their trash in wheelie bins that starts in the fall.

When people think about containerization of waste in New York City, often what they're thinking about is those European-style on-street containers to address the big mountains of trash in front of large buildings. That has historically been the white whale of containerization in New York City. The news today is we have figured it out, and today we released an RFP to procure those European-style containers and put that art of the containerization plan into action.

Brian Lehrer: Very interesting. Why now if the requirement for containers already took effect on March 1st?

Jessica Tisch: There's two types of trash in New York City. There's 44 million pounds a day on our curbs. 50% of it comes from businesses, and the other 50% comes from residences. What took effect on March 1st was the requirement that all businesses put their trash in containers. That's about 20 million pounds of trash a day. Now, we are working on the other 50% of the trash, which comes from residences.

The plan is a three-part plan because not all residences and buildings are the same in New York City. For one to nine-unit buildings this fall, we are going to require that they all put their trash out in wheelie bins, much like residences do, but for buildings of 31 units or more, those small wheelie bins, they won't do it. You'd have to have way too many of them on the street to make it workable, given the size of those mountains of trash. What we're doing for those large buildings is we are buying those large European-style containers that sit in the parking lane permanently, and we expect to have a contract effective by this coming up fall and to do our first pilot of it in Manhattan 9, which is West Harlem, in the spring of 2025.

Brian Lehrer: I want to correct something that I said in the intro that might have left a misimpression, which is that the containerization law took effect a week ago today, March 1st, sounding like it was for all buildings. It's so far for commercial buildings. For businesses, correct?

Jessica Tisch: Exactly.

Brian Lehrer: How is it going as far as you could tell after one week? I know you're not enforcing it yet. March 1st really wasn't the deadline because people will consider the deadline the date past, which they'll get a ticket or a fine for it, but after week one of it officially being the policy, how's it going?

Jessica Tisch: We've been actually rolling it out in phases since September. In September, the mandate to put trash in wheelie bins went into effect for all food-related businesses. Those were restaurants, bodegas, bars, delis, grocery stores, and they've been at it for about six or seven months. A month later, the requirement went into effect for all chain stores in New York City, and those are businesses with five or more locations in the city.

What we've seen across those two phases, which have been running for quite some time now, is excellent compliance. Not perfect compliance, but for the first time in generations, we are seeing on New York City's streets, in particular on our commercial corridors, wheelie bins pop up rather than piles of trash. We expect, now that this requirement has reached all businesses in the city, to see the same level of compliance. In particular, this new phase will cover things like retail stores, the dentist's office, and so we're giving them, as we have in other phases, one month worth of warnings, and summoning will start on April 1st.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a little pushback right away from a listener on the containers that you just announced are going to be procured for larger residential buildings. Listener writes, "Those European style containers are the ugliest thing I've ever seen, saw them in Barcelona in June, and were shocked. They're almost the size of dumpsters and just about as pretty." Have you heard that from anyone else?

Jessica Tisch: I have thought about this myself, and first of all, there are many different designs of containers that you see across Europe, across Asia, across South America, and one of the things that we will be evaluating as part of this RFP is the aesthetics. Does it fit in with the city streetscapes? I would say a container looks much better than a mound of heaping trash sitting on the sidewalk for 12 hours a day to say nothing-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: In the plastic bags.

Jessica Tisch: In plastic bags, to say nothing of the fact of the odors that come from it, the fact that it serves as the all-night, all-you-can-eat buffet for rats. We will be accounting for aesthetics in our evaluation or selection of the containers, but it is one of many considerations.

Brian Lehrer: Here's another question about those. Listener writes, "I live in Italy two months a year. I have seen those large containers in front of homes and businesses in addition to often overflowing with garbage. They often have rats and other animals running out of them. They also take away from any home or business they are out in front of. It makes sense that nobody wants to live in a house with a huge container in front of it." More pushback, at least, a small sample, but that's at least two listeners who have written in with these. I guess the question that I would ask out of that comment is, how good are they at preventing garbage from leaking out or rats getting in?

Jessica Tisch: We're actually using a very different model than what they use in Europe, and I'm very glad to get this question. We have the benefit of not being the first major city in the world to do this. In fact, we're going to be one of the last. We have spent the past year studying what's going on in Europe, what's happening in South America and in Asia, and we've also looked at what hasn't worked.

One important change in the New York City model that will make us different from what's going on in the rest of the world with these containers is we are going to be assigning these containers to buildings rather than having them be shared. Often, when you see containers overflowing in Barcelona or in Italy, for example, that is because the containers are shared, so anyone can put the trash in the containers. Our containers will be assigned to specific buildings. We know how much waste those buildings produce, and the superintendent of that building will be the only person who can access those containers, and that's how we can ensure that the containers will not overflow.

Brian Lehrer: Juan in Williamsburg, you're on WNYC with New York City Sanitation Commissioner Jessica Tisch. Hi, Juan.

Juan: Good morning. Thank you for taking my call. I live in Williamsburg. We have a huge rat problem here, fighting rats living inside my car, engine block all the time. I live next door to a public school, and I've complained about this to 311, the school puts out their trash nightly in garbage bags full of food products. There's never any enforcement against them for putting out these bags. It doesn't seem like this policy that you're implementing right now is dealing with this issue around schools putting out food garbage. I'm just wondering why this isn't part of your policy. Thank you very much.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Juan. Commissioner?

Jessica Tisch: Great news for Juan is that, actually, schools are very much a part of the program that we are designing. Schools are in every neighborhood of the city. They produce an outsized amount of waste. Their trash piles are generally much bigger than other piles of trash. We are running a pilot up in West Harlem in Hamilton Heights. It's a 10-block residential pilot of the large on-street containers.

We have also done 17 schools in the Hamilton Heights area as part of that pilot. We've containerized those 17 schools' waste. What we saw in the first three months of that residential and schools pilot of large on-street containers was a 68% reduction in rat complaints to 311 compared to the prior year.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, I read you some criticism of the containerization plan. Here's somebody who likes it writing in that says, "Woo-hoo. I love hearing about moving the city to bins and these European-style containers. We actually were just in France and Italy and didn't see a rat for two weeks. It was amazing. Please, let's do this." Then the person adds, "Aesthetics, have you seen our heaps of trash bags vibrating with scurrying rats? That's our present aesthetic, not so hot." Louise in Brooklyn has a different question about the containers. Louise, you're on WNYC with the Sanitation Commissioner. Hi.

Louise: Good morning, Brian. My comment is about putting these containers on the street. We have enough of a parking problem. In my neighborhood, we have one block that is completely apartment buildings. Now, you're going to rob the residents and the public school teachers who work across the street from being able to park? We have enough of an issue. I think there's got to be a better way. Besides that, we've got the bike share program that robs parking spaces. What are residents supposed to do if there's no place to park and they live in apartment buildings? Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Louise, thank you. I'll get an answer. I think I saw a stat in a New York Times article that 22,000 to 34,000 parking spots would be eliminated from the containerization program or because of the containerization program, the placement of the containers. Can you confirm that?

Jessica Tisch: The parking is definitely something that we have thought through a lot and studied. I think it's important, Louise, to understand the model that we have come to. We are not proposing to use the large on-street containers for 100% of residences in New York City or for businesses. So where? We have found that wheelie bins would be a viable solution, i.e., wheelie bins don't go in the parking lane itself. They go on the sidewalk. Our model is using wheelie bins. All businesses, their trash is going in wheelie bins, not in the parking lane. One to nine-unit buildings, it's all going in wheelie bins, not in the parking lanes.

10 to 30-unit buildings will have a choice because they produce various amounts of trash. If their trash can fit in wheelie bins, it will go in a wheelie bin. It's really for the buildings of 31 units or more that can't support wheelie bins that we are planning to put in the large on-street containers in the parking lane. What we have found is by coming up with that model, we minimize the impacts on parking citywide. Our current estimates, based on this plan, have an impact of about 1% of parking citywide. I also want to add this plan for containerization focuses specifically on trash as opposed to metal, glass, plastic, or paper cardboard, which also reduces the impact to parking in the city.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, in response to that caller, we're immediately getting pushback in text messages. Listener writes, "The complaints--" oh, boy, they're going by pretty fast now. Here's one, "Give me a break with the parking complaints. Parking is not some unalienable right within New York City."

Here's another supporter writing in, "Are people for real about containers versus bags?" Meaning, the people who are complaining, "Would they prefer to do hand-to-hand combat with rats? Not to mention the aesthetic rather than rat-thwarting containers?" [chuckles] You've got some questioners out there. You've got some supporters on first blush as you're just announcing this now. Amber in Crown Heights has a different kind of question about containers. Amber, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Amber: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. I really love the idea of having containers rather than bags. However, I think-- my husband and I live in a brownstone in Crown Heights. We would fall into that bucket where we need to get our own wheelie trash can. When we first moved here, we got a wheelie trash can. It was stolen the second time we put it out. Theft here is a huge problem. I know this is a problem in many New York City neighborhoods. There's no way we're going to continue to keep buying these bins every time they're stolen. I love the idea, but there has to be something else because it's not taking into account that people are desperate and they will steal anything that isn't permanently affixed.

Brian Lehrer: Commissioner?

Jessica Tisch: Amber, we have rolled this program out to all businesses citywide. While, of course, we've heard reports of theft, it seems not to be a chronic problem. What I would say, obviously, is that anytime any property is stolen, a resident, a business need to file a report with the police department. The other thing I want to make clear is that we have issued a concession to produce a standardized New York City wheelie bin. One of the points of doing this as a concession is that we will be able to sell that wheelie bin at far below market prices. The bins are not going to be $100, $200 as people can see market prices right now. They will be, the most common size substantially below $50.

Brian Lehrer: Here's another caller from Crown Heights with another question about the containers. Anna, you're on WNYC with the Commissioner.

Anna: Hi. Thank you so much. I am also in a brownstone also in Crown Heights. I currently use, just on my own property, the traditional plastic bins for recycling. I switched to a metal bin for my trash because the rats just eat right through the plastic. I found that the old-fashioned like Oscar the Grouch style metal trash can is really the only thing that keeps the rats out. I'm just concerned of having-- in addition to the ceiling issue, which I think is also legitimate, I'm also just concerned that these plastic bins are not necessarily impermeable to New York City rats.

Brian Lehrer: Have you studied that, Commissioner?

Jessica Tisch: We have. As we are designing the standard New York City wheelie bin, one of the things that we are assessing is the quality and the sturdiness of the bin. It is something that we are accounting for as we are developing the wheelie bin that will be made available to all residences of 1 to 30 units in the city.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to run out of time pretty soon. I want to go back to one of the callers that we took, Juan in Williamsburg, who was concerned about trash being put out by the school that he lives right by. The West Side Rag reported on a pilot program that force schools on the Upper West Side to tackle this issue. I'm curious how your department is addressing waste coming from schools in the pilot program, schools in particular.

Jessica Tisch: That's what I was mentioning. Up in West Harlem, we have fully containerized the trash at 17 schools, not just the 4 schools up there. The program has gone exceedingly well. We have seen rat complaints decrease by 68% in the areas the program is running in. The schools are doing an excellent job of complying, meaning all the trash, all the organics, all of the recycling, it's all going in the bins.

We've heard from the school's custodians that it's making their jobs and their lives a lot easier because instead of having to store all the trash indoors, they can put it out whenever they want. I want to just say that that's another major benefit of the containerization program for the larger buildings because instead of having to store that trash indoors all day or for two or three days, it can be stored in that fixed on-street container.

Brian Lehrer: Some listeners are saying, "Why plastic bins? They're going to break and then we're going to have more broken plastic waste." Can they all be metal?

Jessica Tisch: We considered the metal, but the metal can be very, very noisy. I think New Yorkers will not want to hear the clanking around of all of the metal on the streets as it's being collected all day and all night. Again, as I mentioned, one of the things that we are focused on in designing the official wheelie bin for the city is a high-quality plastic that will not be breakable.

Brian Lehrer: The metal bins are much heavier as well, I believe, is considered one of the drawbacks. One last thing is that I see that another goal of the administration's trash revolution, as you're looking at it, is to update the city's garbage trucks. Last month, Mayor Adams and your department unveiled a new automated garbage truck. What does it look like? How is it an improvement? If it's automated, does that mean we're not going to be employing as many individuals working in your department?

Jessica Tisch: Absolutely not. This truck will be to sanitation workers. It's very important to operate the truck and for safety, but the truck you are referencing is modeled on the European-type garbage truck. It's a special truck that can lift these large on-street 4-cubic yard containers. We have basically copied what they're doing in Europe, brought that model to the United States, and we unveiled that brand-new garbage truck that lifts these containers about a month ago.

Brian Lehrer: We leave it there. Congratulations on trying to do stuff. Everything's going to be controversial in New York, but nobody likes the status quo, so we'll see how this goes. Just tell everybody one last time on the residential side because that's what hasn't come yet. What happens when and does it happen at the same time all over the city?

Jessica Tisch: One to nine-unit buildings this fall will be required to put out their trash in wheelie bins. We are developing a standardized New York City wheelie bin which will be available at below-market rates before that mandate takes effect. For buildings of 31 units or more, we are going to be using large on-street fixed containers of the European style that will be hoisted by special automated side-loading trucks.

We plan to containerize or roll that out in the first district, West Harlem, Manhattan 9 in the spring of 2025, and we are buying those containers now. Buildings of 10 to 30 units will have a choice between the two models. If their trash can fit in wheelie bins and they prefer that, they can set it out in wheelie bins. If they prefer the large on-street containers, they will also be able to use that. The large on-street containers will be rolled out district by district, and the first district will roll out in the spring of 2025.

Brian Lehrer: Thanks for breaking that news here, Commissioner. Very interesting stuff. We'll see how it goes. Good luck with it.

Jessica Tisch: Thank you.

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