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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. As of yesterday in New York City, if you are 12 or older, you will be required to show proof of having received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine in order to participate in a host of in-person activities, that goes for workers too. The proof of vaccine to enter requirement, dubbed The Key to New York City will apply to indoor restaurants, bars, museums and movie theaters, but not to places such as office buildings, community centers and senior centers. Again, this is by and large an indoor activities mandate.

It does not apply to outdoor dining areas, though I see it will apply to the city so-called homecoming concerts this week, which are outdoor events, vaccine mandate. On September 13th, the city will begin issuing fines, $1,000 for a first offense and $2,000 for a second to indoor businesses that fail to ensure that their venues are off limits to those who remain unvaccinated. With me now to talk more about what the mandate means and to take your calls on day one yesterday of this experience is Caroline Lewis, freelance journalist and frequent contributor to Gothamist and WNYC on matters of health. Hi, Caroline. Welcome back to WNYC.

Caroline Lewis: Thanks, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we want to open the phones right away. If you visited or worked at a venue with the new vaccine mandate that took effect yesterday, how did day one go? 646-435-7280. If you work in one of these places, nightlife, dining, museums, theaters, what are you thinking this week as the rules have radically changed? Once again, 646-435-7280. Are you relieved? Do you feel protected that the city is asking you to take this step and asking others who have come in contact with you to take this step?

Does it put your mind at ease for the health of yourself and your staff? Or are you worried that you'll lose business if you work in one of these businesses or own one as a result of patrons not wanting to comply? Or that you'll have to add staff to do the actual vaccine-checking, or maybe worried you'll get fined, or getting into ugly altercations with potential customers or visitors? Maybe you've already gotten a bad reaction on day one, when you've asked about people's vaccine status. Did that happen yesterday?

Call in and tell us one way or another, how are you feeling this week as a result of the new more expansive mandate for indoor venues to require vaccination to enter? Do you have any stories from day one as a worker or a customer or a visitor. 646-435-7280. 646-435-7280. We'll also watch our Twitter feed go by and look for your questions and comments and stories there. Tweet @BrianLehrer.

Caroline, maybe we should go over the basics, because prior to this week the mayor said that the vaccine requirements would apply to indoor dining and bars and gyms and performance spaces, but on Monday he brought in the list. What's really in?

Caroline Lewis: It really does apply to most indoor spaces that people would be in for an extended period of time, everything from nightclubs, to pool halls, concert venues, indoor pools, museums and galleries. These are small spaces like a coffee shop, to also a big restaurant or a fast food joint. It really applies to most spaces that people would go in indoors in the city.

Brian Lehrer: Which venues are exempt from the executive order?

Caroline Lewis: It does exempt residential and office buildings as well as churches, community centers and schools. Also, if someone is just going into a store for retail, or popping into a restaurant to pick up a takeout order or use the bathroom, they won't have to show their vaccine card. It's really if they're going to be staying for a while.

Brian Lehrer: Hair salons, beauty parlors?

Caroline Lewis: I don't think those are on the list. I have to double-check, but I don't think those are on the list. I know that a gym, fitness class, things like that, movie theaters, those are all included.

Brian Lehrer: I think hair salons and beauty parlors are not on the list, no vaccine proof required there as I understand it. Let's just touch on movie theaters which you mentioned for a second, because the mayor was on here a couple of weeks ago when the original list came out. Even he was almost surprised when I raised movie theaters as an exemption at that time. If you're going to see live theater, you needed to show proof of a vaccine, but not if you're going to sit in a movie theater, which in many ways is a similar exposure experience. He said, "Yes, we have to take a look at that again." For people who thought movie theaters were out of this requirement, movie theaters are now in, right?

Caroline Lewis: That's right. I think it's a much more extensive list than maybe people were anticipating.

Brian Lehrer: Why museums?

Caroline Lewis: I think the idea is that if you are spending an extended amount of time indoors, in close proximity to other people then it should be on the list. That seems to be the logic behind the places that are included.

Brian Lehrer: I think when museums originally reopened after the first phase of COVID, they were arguing that they could space people unlike in a theater let's say. Only let a certain number of people in at a time or a certain number of people into our gallery at a time, but museums are now included in the vaccine mandate. What verification documents are being accepted?

Caroline Lewis: People will have to show their ID along with proof of vaccination, and so that can be their CDC vaccine card, or it can be a picture of the card. Either a physical picture or a digital picture on their phone. People can also use the Excelsior Pass app from the state to show proof of vaccination or the NYC COVID Safe app, which also is basically just an app for storing a picture of your vaccine proof.

Then if you weren't vaccinated in the US you can show an immunization record from outside of the US that shows your name, the name of the vaccine, when you were vaccinated, all that basic information. There is a list of vaccines that are accepted outside of the ones that are authorized in the US, which is basically vaccines that were authorized by the World Health Organization.

Brian Lehrer: I want to reinforce for a second one of the things you just said, which is that you not only need proof of vaccination, you need a valid ID. I've told this story before, but I actually went to a Yankee game back in May, when they were still requiring proof of vaccination, or a negative COVID test and your ID to go to outdoor ballgames. The person in front of me online had a proof of vaccination card, but they didn't have an ID that showed that they matched up with it and they were turned away. Proof of ID, don't forget that along with whatever proof of vaccination you're using, right?

Caroline Lewis: Absolutely. The ID is crucial in this situation.

Brian Lehrer: Proof of negative COVID tests. Again, I know we said it, but let's just be really clear, because this is different than some of the workplace requirements for office workers in the city and other people. Proof of negative COVID tests cannot be used in place of proof of vaccines for these venues that we're talking about. Bars, restaurants, museums, movie theaters, et cetera.

Caroline Lewis: That's right. I think it's also going to be interesting to see which places require proof of vaccination, because there's a lot of places that have indoor and outdoor sections. The proof of vaccination is really only required if you're going to be in an indoor section, but it can get confusing. If there's a bar with indoor and outdoor seating, are staff going to be able to keep track of who's going where, and will they instead just check proof for everyone going in? I think it's going to be interesting how it's implemented.

Brian Lehrer: Question via Twitter. Listener says, "It's so easy to make fraudulent cards, it's almost ridiculous to permit them as proof." Well, it's a statement not a question. The implied question is, is it that easy and are people gaming the system already?

Caroline Lewis: There has been reports of people creating fraudulent cards. It is definitely against the law, the the state did try to pass a new bill making it clear that it's against the law and emphasizing that, which passed the legislature but wasn't signed by the governor. The FBI already said earlier this year that it's a federal infraction to create a fraudulent CDC card. Then if you're using say the Excelsior app, which doesn't have a CDC seal that may not be covered by that. I think it would still fall under the state forgery law, which if you forge a written document, either digital or physical, that can be punishable by up to seven years in prison if it's classified as a Class D felony.

Brian Lehrer: One listener says on Twitter, "I was happy to go out for dinner last night knowing that I would be surrounded by vaccinated customers but I was not asked for proof." Another one rights, "I personally won't feel any more safe if children under 12 are permitted into indoor venues." Let's take each of those. If people want ask for proof yesterday on day one, they're not enforcing this until mid-September. Is that likely why they wouldn't have been asked for proof last night at a restaurant?

Caroline Lewis: Well, I think if a restaurant or a venue wants to comply with this, they should already be complying, because it's already taken effect, but there may be some adjustment period. It may be that some places don't have the staffing to do it, or the protocol set up yet, and so maybe there's an adjustment period. I guess that's why they are delaying enforcement.

Brian Lehrer: To the listener, who wrote, "I personally won't feel any more safe if children under 12 are permitted into indoor venues." Obviously, that's because there are no vaccines for children under 12 yet, how are people supposed to deal with that?

Caroline Lewis: Well, children under 12 are going to be required to wear a mask unless they're eating or drinking. I guess that's supposed to mitigate the potential spread. I guess it's a trade-off, obviously, it would be a much bigger burden if people couldn't go out to dinner with their children anymore.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, how does proof of ID along with proof of vaccination work for a 12-year-old? Somebody else tweets, saying not many have picture ID, not many 12-year-olds.

Caroline Lewis: I guess they should be allowed to show a school ID. I think in general, you can use any ID that has a picture and your name but that's a good question, if there isn't an ID available. Maybe it's something that schools will have to take up.

Brian Lehrer: Another listener tweets "A friend and I went to Lavender Lake in Gowanus for dinner and drinks last night," little old plug there by this lesson, I guess for one of their aunts. It says, "We had to show our card, and vax ID. We ate outside, but it was still good to know everyone around us had to show the proof." Again, to be clear, you don't have to show it to eat outdoors, correct?

Caroline Lewis: That's right. I actually had a similar experience, I went to a place in Brooklyn where there's tacos outside and you can sit outside but if you want to go to the bar, you have to go inside to get a drink. In my mind, that falls under the exemption of a quick and limited purpose if you're just running inside to get something or use the bathroom. They were basically checking ID and vax proof for everybody and saying if you wanted to go inside for any reason, then you had to show it. I think that maybe there might just be some streamlining happening, but I think that people can say what the rule is if a restaurant isn't really following it.

Brian Lehrer: You say go inside for any reason, which prompts the obvious question, what if an outdoor dining customer has to use the bathroom, do they need to show proof of vaccination?

Caroline Lewis: Under the executive order, they don't need to show proof of vaccination. Like I said, in this bar that I was at they were requiring. They were basically saying, "If you don't want to show proof of vaccination, you just can't go inside and use the bathroom." Which I think maybe there's just an adjustment period and everyone is familiarizing themselves with the rules. Officially, you do not have to show proof of vaccination to go inside just to use the bathroom.

Brian Lehrer: I guess I'll have to ask one of my favorite local restaurants, how they're going to manage a particular policy that they have in my neighborhood. Where if you want to eat in their outdoor dining space, you actually go inside to order the meal at the counter but then you eat it outside. Is that indoor dining or is that outdoor dining? I guess I'll find out. Here's a restaurant worker, Celeste in Manhattan calling in. Celeste, you're on WNYC. Hi there.

Celeste: Hi there.

Brian Lehrer: What have you got for us, Celeste?

Celeste: I just wanted to say on the whole I think people are very happy to show their vaccine cards and they've been seeing it on the news and aren't already on the get-go with their vaccine cards out at the door, to show us. I'm a host, so it's the host job, we've just been told to check everyone is fully vaccinated. Then there are a few people who are just over it. They feel it's ruining their dining experience, and a lot of people have forgotten about it, and have just taken pictures of their vaccine cards, which takes them some time to go through their camera roll.

I would say it's a mixed batch. I feel a lot more comfortable knowing people are fully vaccinated dining inside. We still have people taking reservations, we have to let them know to come in and bring their vaccines and they still feel more comfortable eating outside. I'd say it's still kind of a mixed batch. I would say, on the whole, it's a little strange, because all we've been told is to check for vaccine cards, nothing else. When it got really busy, yesterday we had a very busy night, we were not able to check everyone because people were coming in, coming out. I would say that's just a bit of confusion of flow on how we can make sure we are doing it properly.

Brian Lehrer: Celeste thank you very much. She works at a restaurant, Caroline, where they're trying and maybe there's going to be some glitches, or the staff is going to be a little more overwhelmed than being able to do it perfectly for everybody, at least at first until they iron out the glitches, if I was hearing her right. Then there are other places that are vowing to resist. I saw on TV, a little spot with a restaurant owner from a small space in South Brooklyn, who says, "No, I'm not going to do this. If I tried to do it, my customers, some of them would revolt and I don't want to get into those altercations."

They actually posted a sign outside that said, "We do not discriminate based on vaccine status, mask status," all that stuff. Which I mean, to say discriminate, to put that in the same category, as racial discrimination, or gender, or LGBT discrimination, to use the word discrimination, I think would be insulting to a lot of people. That's the sign they posted and there's going to be that kind of resistance at some places. Have you reported on anything like that yet or has the city said how they'll handle anything like that yet?

Caroline Lewis: Well, it's definitely something I'm interested in and that's the next step in reporting this story. I think I've heard discrimination used in a slightly different context, in this case. Where some people are saying that the policy discriminates against businesses that primarily serve populations that have lower vaccination rates. For instance, businesses with primarily Black clientele and zip codes that are less vaccinated because I think only like 38% of Black people have at least one vaccine dose in the city. If a business's clientele or a cultural organization's clientele really are not that vaccinated, they could be more impacted negatively by this mandate.

Of course, some might still feel that it's making them safer. The mayor, when he was asked about this on Monday definitely said, "If anything, we're trying to keep everybody safe so it's not discrimination." I think there is that question of how some businesses might be impacted differently than others.

Brian Lehrer: Sophia in the Bronx, you're on WNYC with Caroline Lewis from Gothamist and WNYC. Hi, Sophia.

Sophia: Hello, good morning. I'm not vaccinated yet, I have a heart condition which makes me a little concerned about my reaction and the side effects. Also, I did survive COVID in the past, and I really do trust my immune system. I did get turned away the other day at a cafe that I normally go to, I get tested weekly for work, even if you're vaccinated, I work in commercials and film. It's just very interesting when you are getting tested weekly, you are concerned about the vaccine, and just the fact I have a lot of friends who feel the same way who are young, who are capable, and who are more concerned about asthma rates in the Bronx.

Who are concerned about the food deserts, who are concerned about diabetes, that's a pandemic in itself. The fact that that could be a cause to more problems if we do get COVID. I'm wondering why can't we cap the across those? Why is this such a big concern when all these other underlying issues can be more severe if you do get COVID? I have friends who had the vaccine and to get COVID too. This is to me my biggest issue where I'm in support of my local places and I will be doing the takeout situation and outdoor dining and I'm wearing my mask. These are my actual concerns as a young person in New York City. We need to talk about the other problems, not just a vaccine mandate.

Brian Lehrer: Of course those other problems are huge and real, but why would it need to be those rather than this, as opposed to those in addition to this, for you Sophia?

Sophia: I just feel like we're enforcing a vaccine onto people, without giving them time and space to realize if this is something that they want to do with their bodies. I understand that if you're if you have pre-existing conditions, you're elderly. I understand that concern, but I also believe that if I'm getting tested weekly and I have to, even if you are vaccinated, why can't I also dine in if I can show that proof as well?

Brian Lehrer: Of course the authorities would say, nobody is forcing you to get a vaccine. It's only if you want to participate in the elective activity of going to entertainment or indoor dining. I hear you, I'd also recommend that you ask your doctor as somebody with a heart condition, if you haven't, maybe you have, but which they think is a greater risk to your heart. The possibility of getting COVID with its potential cardiac effects, or the vaccine? Sophia, I hear you. Thank you very much for calling in. Caroline, I guess one question to take out of Sophia's call is she said that she does show proof of negative tests when she goes into restaurants and places until this mandate took effect yesterday. Why is that not an option?

Caroline Lewis: Well, I think that part of it is that the city is trying to use this as a way to combat the Delta Variant and combat, the virus as a whole. I think that in places where there's less lower rates of vaccination, the virus has become more deadly, hospitalizations have gone up more. I think there has been a lot of talk about people having breakthrough infections, even if they're vaccinated. What we do know is that if you're vaccinated, you're going to be infectious for a lot less time. You have much less risk of having severe symptoms, or going to the hospital, or dying.

I think overall vaccination helps just reduce transmission, which helps prevent the vaccine from continuing to, mutate into new strains. I think part of this is it's a public health measure and not just like on a case-by-case basis, safety measure, although it, it does that purpose as well.

Brian Lehrer: People have a lot more questions. You know what, before we're going to take a break, we'll take a lot more phone calls. Cover a lot more of the implications of the vaccine mandate that took effect in New York City yesterday for indoor restaurants, bars, museums, and movie theaters, and a number of other places. To the point that you were just making, let's highlight for just another second, the point of the vaccine mandate. Yes, it is to protect yourself sort of, but it's really much more to protect others. Same as with masks.

Caroline Lewis: Yes. I think that it is very much to protect the individual, but I think that the city is using this in a much broader context to say that like if more people are vaccinated, we will get past, having COVID being a major issue much quicker. It's like looking at this beyond just the individual.

Brian Lehrer: Ron in Bed-Stuy, you're on WNYC, thanks for calling in Ron.

Ron: Hi, I'm a professional musician and also I voted for de Blasio both times. This is the worst thing that he has ever done because one of the medium size music clubs and the smaller music clubs are gonna really feel this because it's a mandate. There are some music venues right now that actually do that, but that's by choice. What I have found in the last two months or so at different music venues. I won't name the names, but what I find is that New Yorkers actually are very-- Everybody wears their mask. Also between the sets of music, people go outside. In other words, they watch the music and then they go outside. Then if there's a second set of something, they come back inside.

The smaller venues, this is going to push them over the edge. Because I remember when Cuomo had the prohibitions against people congregating, he used the state liquor authority and defines with $10,000, for a violation. The third violation, you lost your liquor license and that knocked out a couple of places that I'm aware of. This is like just the same thing all over again.

Brian Lehrer: Ron, let me get a response, I totally hear you. To his point, Caroline, about smaller venues in particular, do you think this could be more of a burden for smaller venues?

Caroline Lewis: I'm sure that it will be a burden for smaller venues, and smaller businesses to just have to check IDs and that sort of thing. As I mentioned, I think it really may depend on the clientele that they serve. If people are serving, a group of people who is mostly vaccinated anyway, then it probably won't be an issue, or people who are willing to get vaccinated. I think if people are serving populations that aren't vaccinated because of their deeply held beliefs, and people who are really resistant to it, then I think that might be a bigger issue. I think that the gambit the city is making is that this will incentivize those people to get vaccinated. I guess we're going to see whether that actually happens.

Brian Lehrer: I'm still thinking about our earlier caller, Sophia in the Bronx and one of the things that she pointed out. Which of course, most people know by now, which is that there are people in certain neighborhoods who are less vaccinated than people in other neighborhoods. A lot of mostly Black and brown neighborhoods. Some of the mostly white Republican neighborhoods on Staten island have lower vaccination rates than other parts of the city. Have you seen any complaints that this becomes in effect racially discriminatory considering who tends not to be vaccinated?

Caroline Lewis: Yes. That's the main criticism I'm hearing. I think that the city's response has been, or the mayor's response has been, that we're trying to protect everybody. Obviously, I think the issue is they're really trying to use this as an incentive for people to get vaccinated. I think that there needs to be in tandem, more like they need to continue to try to educate people, talk to people, understand people's real concerns. Because there are people who still really do have a fear of getting vaccinated or have beliefs that conflict with getting vaccinated. I think this is one way to strong-arm people into doing it, but it also could be a way to just prevent people from participating in civic life and could affect businesses that serve those people.

Brian Lehrer: What about delivery workers going in and out of restaurants to pick up food? Well, they need to show proof of vaccination.

Caroline Lewis: If you are just going in to pick something up, I think you don't have to show proof of vaccination, but if you're an employee of the establishment then you do have to show, then you do have to be vaccinated.

Brian Lehrer: Now, I read that the office of administrative trials and hearing which, actually if you look at it has the acronym OATH. I think they use that acronym, OATH, the office of administrative trials and hearing. It's a city agency that uses mediation and conflict resolution to address various municipal disputes will be offering conflict resolution training for businesses to deal with non-compliant patrons. Do you have any more insight into what this training will entail?

Caroline Lewis: I heard them announce that, and they said they want to help train people to deescalate situations where someone might be resistant to the mandate. I think that it'll be interesting to see what that training looks like and whether people actually find it helpful. I think earlier when there were mask mandates, I would talk to people at let's say a grocery store and they would say, "Look, if people don't want to wear their mask, I'm going to tell them to, but I'm not going to like, get into an altercation about it or really try to throw them out." In this case, I think the question is how far are people really expected to go in enforcing this if there is resistance.

Brian Lehrer: Exempt from de Blasio's list are senior centers. On Monday in one of his last major directives, before he leaves office, Governor Cuomo announced that all healthcare workers in the state, including staff at hospitals, nursing homes, adult care facilities, and other congregate care settings must get at least one dose of coronavirus vaccine by September 27th. Do you know if that order would apply to senior centers, which aren't healthcare facilities per se, and they're not live in, but would it apply, and would it supersede the mayor's policy?

Caroline Lewis: I'm pretty sure the mayor's policy exempts senior centers, so if there is a state policy, then they'll have to follow those rules. The mayor's policy does not apply to senior centers.

Brian Lehrer: Marie in Massapequa, you're on WNYC. Hi Marie.

Marie: Hi. Thank you. I just have a quick question, as far as adults there might be a small population of people that can't get the vaccine. Will they be exempt under this policy and it's still allowed to attend restaurants and venues in the city.

Brian Lehrer: You mean for medical or religious reasons?

Marie: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: How are they going to handle that, Caroline? Did they say?

Caroline Lewis: I don't think there's any provision for you to show that you medically can't get it or anything like that. I think that in that case, you just have to dine outside or find some way to live with the policy, from my understanding.

Brian Lehrer: No medical or religious exemption for going indoor to these entertainment and dining venues?

Caroline Lewis: Not that I know of, I don't think so.

Brian Lehrer: Josh, in Washington Heights, you're on WNYC. Hi Josh.

Josh: Hi, thank you for taking my call, Brian. Not a single person that I've asked has answered this question. Israel and the European Union issue an official document which is called a COVID Recovery Certificate. Which exempts those of us who have had COVID from having to take either a vaccine or a weekly test. Why in New York City, and in this country, do they not adopt a similar policy for those of us who have had COVID?

Brian Lehrer: A COVID recovery certificate, meaning you've had COVID and recovered from it and therefore presumably have some immunity?

Josh: That is correct, and these are official documents. You can go on the Israeli Health Department website to find it, you can go the European Union Health Department website and find it. These are not opinions, these are established official documents.

Brian Lehrer: Josh, thank you. Have you heard of that, Caroline? Did anybody say anything about considering the idea here?

Caroline Lewis: It's not something that was considered here that I'm aware of. I think that there are different types of policies for COVID safety elsewhere. There are situations, there places where they'll accept a recent test, or proof of recovery maybe when you're traveling, but in this case, the city has really gone with this blanket policy of just relying on vaccination primarily.

Brian Lehrer: Okay, clear up one last thing for me and for others. I happened to go online last night to renew my own Excelsior Pass because the original one expires on September 1st, at least for me. Now they renew them for longer periods of time. I noticed that in addition to the Excelsior Pass, that's the proof of vaccine or a negative COVID test offered by the state that you can download if you put in your information, they now have what's called Excelsior Plus. What's the difference for people who might go online and be confused by that?

Caroline Lewis: I actually needed to look into that more, the difference between Excelsior and Excelsior Plus honestly. Sorry about that.

Brian Lehrer: We'll follow up, and I don't know either, even though I was on the site last night, it was not clear to me. Caroline Lewis health reporter, whose latest article on Gothamist is New York City Starts COVID Vaccine Mandate—What You Need To Visit Restaurants, Bars and Venues. Thanks for filling us in on so much.

Caroline Lewis: Awesome. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, much more to come.

 

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