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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Early voting begins today in the New Jersey primary. It's a short voting season, primary day itself is this Tuesday. We'll talk about what's on the ballot and what's at stake now with WNYC's Nancy Solomon, who of course among other things hosts our Ask Governor Murphy call-in every month on the station. Hi, Nancy. Welcome back to the show.

Nancy Solomon: Hi, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: First give us a picture of what's on the ballot because, in many other places, this is an off-year for elections.

Nancy Solomon: Right. It's the entire state legislature, so that's 120 seats. There are 40 districts and every district has two assembly people and one state senator. You've got primaries for both the Democrats and Republicans, so that's a lot of races. Even though they're combined into one district, it essentially is 240 races potentially going on at this moment although not all of those races actually have contestants.

Brian Lehrer: Right. In fact, you wrote and reported a story about there being many open seats in this New Jersey legislature and in this election year, but many of those do not have competitive races. Can you give us the lay of the land on that?

Nancy Solomon: Yes. This is the first election since the every 10-year redistricting, which happened last year. There are 26 incumbents in the legislature who are not running, and there are two incumbents who had their districts combined and are running against each other. That's a lot of open seats that we don't usually see. It's at least double the usual amount. In fact, what has happened is that there are very few competitive races or even races that aren't even contested or that are being contested, which is very strange given all that you would expect to see.

This is what happens nationally around the country and other state legislatures is when there are more open seats, there are more races that are contested. There were only 11 contested seats in the assembly and 9 in the Senate.

Brian Lehrer: Hmm. What kinds of candidates does that empower or lockout because many people think perhaps the Democrats in these Democratic districts will vote like Democrats and the Republicans in Republican districts will vote like Republicans even if they're being picked by the party leaders, not in competitive primaries? We mostly know what it means in New Jersey to be a Democrat or Republican in the legislature, so why not that?

Nancy Solomon: For one thing, in the last 12 years, not a single incumbent has lost a seat in a election in New Jersey. That's compared to-- I was told by Julius Sass Rubin who's a Rutgers professor who studies the New Jersey balloting system. She said that during that same time period around the country, there were 1,200 incumbents who lost their seats in state legislatures in the last 12 years and zero in New Jersey.

That is like the little canary in the coal mine saying, "Hmm, something's a little wrong here." I think really this all lands at the feet of the ballot and the county line and how the whole process of who gets onto the ballot and the placement on the ballot. It really all lies with that, which of course I can take you into a deep dive if you want to hear it explained.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, I think our listeners would be interested in hearing you wonk out a little bit on this idea of the county line, but let me get the phone number first. If anybody has a question or for that matter electioneering welcome here, shall we say, for any race in the New Jersey primary, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or text to that same number for our Nancy Solomon. Okay, Nancy, the county line, that sounds like it's something between Union and Middlesex, but it's not that way.

Nancy Solomon: [chuckles] No. Sometimes it's referred to as the line and sometimes it's referred to as the party line, but most often the county line. This is how it works. Each county in New Jersey has a party organization for each party, Democrats and Republicans. The people in the county organizations, who are sometimes called the committee, are elected in the primary themselves. They're big, big organizations that are essentially democratic in the sense of who's elected to them. They're like two people per neighborhood. They're called district leaders. It goes really right, except in rural places, down to the neighborhood.

In all but two counties in the state, these organizations endorse candidates every time there's an election, and all the candidates from president down to dogcatcher. Then the ballot is laid out based on these endorsements. Let me just say, there are two counties that don't do this. Then the endorsed candidates run on what's called the county line. It can be a row or a column, and it puts all the candidates together who are endorsed by the party.

You have the top of the ticket, which every four years is the presidential race, every four years is the gubernatorial race on the off years, there's US senators, Congress members, whoever for that election happens to be at the top of the ticket on down to the smallest, most local races, but they're all grouped together. What that does is it signals to voters here are the legit candidates. You might recognize the person at the top of either the column or the beginning of the row, but all these other names that you don't recognize, they're part of our group, and these are the legit candidates.

Then sometimes people are just running. The reformers, the outsiders, the people who didn't get the endorsement from their party are on the line all alone, and so you don't have any context for them. If you're just a regular voter not really understanding what's going on, you see 1 person against 10 people.

Brian Lehrer: The party establishment has tremendous control over whose name gets displayed on the ballot in this way that looks like they're the serious candidates.

Nancy Solomon: Exactly. Some of that happens through a somewhat democratic process of a party county committee convention, and some of that happens by the party bosses. In the biggest, most powerful democratic strongholds in the state, the party bosses make the decision without any convention.

Brian Lehrer: Does this come out in terms of issues in any way? Does New Jersey have a big set of disputes within the Democratic Party between those who are more centrist and those who are more progressive? I think it's fair to say New York has. We remember at the state legislature level just a few years ago a number of Democrats in the state Senate were thrown out in primaries because they were members of a group called the IDC, a more centrist group, which helped the Republicans actually keep control of the New York State Senate even though there were more Democrats in the Senate.

Of course, we know all the issues from criminal justice reform to housing eviction protections, all these things that divide Democrats in the New York State legislature, and it really matters who wins primaries in New York State. How about in New Jersey in those issue respects?

Nancy Solomon: Yes. Let me point out exactly the same as New York, it really matters in New Jersey who wins the primaries because the redistricting of the districts has really left the state carved up into very safe seats. Whoever wins the primary, except in a few places, is going to go on to win the general. I would say I learned this from Matt Katz, our colleague, a long time ago when he and I started working together. New Jersey politics are transactional, not ideological, and I would say particularly when it comes to the Democratic Party.

I think the Republicans have much more of an ideological fight going on between the MAGA Trumpists and the more moderate Republicans. In the Democratic Party, it really comes down to the machines, the bosses controlling the machines, handing out patronage jobs, raising money by doing favors for big funders, and plowing that money into campaigns to be able to elect and re-elect their anointed person year in and year out.

You don't see these ideological fights, although I will say I think it's a very effective tool for keeping reformers and outsiders unelected and out of the process. I think we saw a wave of progressive reformers running primary challenges after the Trump election in 2017 and 2018, and they weren't able to beat the line. They just weren't able to do it. It's ideological in the sense that it keeps out new people, it keeps out reformers, it keeps out outsiders, but there's no real split ideologically in the party per se.

Brian Lehrer: This is WNYC FM HDNA in New York, WNJT-FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are a New York and New Jersey public radio and live streaming at wnyc.org on the New Jersey side for a few more minutes with our Nancy Solomon on this first day of early voting in the New Jersey primary. Nancy, keep that Chris Christie corner of your brain engaged and ready to go because I'm going to ask you one Chris Christie for president question before we wrap up in a few minutes. Chris in Bloomfield, you're on WNYC with Nancy. Hi, Chris.

Chris: Hi. Hi, Brian. Hi, Nancy. I just voted by mail last week. Every time I vote for New Jersey politicians, I'm voting blind. I have no idea who these people are. Everything was just a line vote. There was one candidate that was voting against or listed against an incumbent. When I looked him up, he's like a 20-year-old kid with no experience. You look on the internet, you look on NJ.com, there's not even a website, nothing for these people. I could be voting for a child molester. I don't know who I'm voting for.

Nancy Solomon: Yes, I hear you. I think there are two things going on. One is just a real lack of engagement because why would you engage in a process in which there's nothing to vote for, there are so many districts, so many ballots that do not have contested elections? Mercer County, Princeton, there's no one for people who live in Princeton. No one on the ballot. Very engaged Democratic strongholds like Princeton or Maplewood, South Orange, Newark, Irvington, huge Democratic strongholds, very little competition.

There was one contested race we could talk about in a minute in that district. I think no competition, no debates. Then the other thing going on is New Jersey has basically turned into a news desert. There are just so few political reporters left. The papers have really cannibalized themselves over-- They've lost their economic underpinning with the internet. It's hard for people to engage and get information, and that's what we get. We get a legislature that is largely anointed and not elected.

Brian Lehrer: Here's Chris who says she used to be part of the process in one of the counties. Chris, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Chris: Hello. Yes, I used to be on the Democratic committee in one of these counties, and I had to leave because it was so dirty because even on a local level, it's pre-planned and the people running things try to get people onto the Democratic committee that are going to rubber stamp whatever they say. When you get to the county level, it's all like a show. They've got certain big politicians that came in to make a big speech and introduce the winner, and it's all pre-planned. It's just disgusting.

Nancy Solomon: It's been something on my to-do list for so long and I just have not gotten to it yet, but the counties in New Jersey, they're little fiefdoms or big fiefdoms, and they have enormous budgets. They have so much money from our property taxes, and they basically do apportion out that money and run the counties with very little oversight. I hear you, and I think that we have a lot of problems. Democracy is truly broken in New Jersey and we need people to get engaged in these issues. Here's another example. You have people who before they've actually announced that they're running, the endorsements come pouring out from big-name politicians in the state, the well-known people.

Like for the Hudson County executive race, Governor Phil Murphy endorsed the guy who's running before really he even announced his own campaign. This happens over and over again. It happened with Rob Menendez the son of Bob Menendez running for his congressional seat. It's just incredible. This endorsement process, it's so powerful and it basically has the-- I don't know if the right word is a chilling effect, but it has the effect of having other legitimate candidates drop out or not run because if you're going to run off the line, you're not going to win, so why would you spend all that time and money?

Brian Lehrer: Remind me, is it four-year terms in both houses of the legislature?

Nancy Solomon: Two.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, two years?

Nancy Solomon: We have a lot of these elections, but not a lot of changes.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Are there any particular actually contested primaries today through next Tuesday that you've got your eye on?

Nancy Solomon: Yes, there are a few. South Jersey is one of the most interesting places because it has a few truly purple districts unlike most of North Jersey and Central. There are two districts in South Jersey where you have competitive races in both parties. The fourth district covers parts of Atlantic, Camden, and Gloucester counties. There is a Gloucester County commissioner, Nick DeSilvio, who's running for the state Senate. One of the other interesting dynamics in South Jersey, not just are these purple districts but because it's more rural, you have legislative districts that cross multiple county lines, and so each county of course is run by the county party committee in terms of their endorsements.

When you've got a ballot where you've got a candidate who crosses these different county lines, there's actually can be more of a fight. For instance, the Republican Party in Gloucester County endorsed Nick DeSilvio and so he has their backing, and he's running against a guy named Chris Del Borrello who has the backing in Atlantic and Camden counties, so you get an actual competitive race. DeSilvio also is considered the MAGA candidate, and that can be a problem for Republicans come the general election in a purple district, so everyone's watching that one.

The third district is also super interesting because the Republican Ed Durr is the incumbent senator, and he's the guy who defeated the most powerful man in the legislature two years ago, Steve Sweeney. He was a delivery driver who spent about $1,000 on his campaign and basically caught Sweeney and the Democratic Party down there asleep at the wheel. Sweeney was the longest-serving Senate president in New Jersey history and also the top lieutenant of the whole George Norcross machine, which is basically the entire Democratic Party of South Jersey.

Anyway, Ed Durr after being in office for a year and a half now is facing a primary challenge from his former running mate Beth Sawyer who ran with him, got an assembly seat, and now she's challenging him for the Senate seat. It's going to be interesting because whoever wins that race is really going to have a fight on their hands to keep it Republican and not go to the Democrat.

Brian Lehrer: It's the balance of power in the legislature in play this November, do you think? Are the primaries important in that respect? It's been a Democratic legislature for a while now.

Nancy Solomon: I don't think so. I think that the road back to relevance for the Republican Party in New Jersey though is through South Jersey if they can make gains there. Then they've got some other primary fights and some live elections in the rural western part of the states, particularly the northwestern part of the state. They're not going to lose Republican seats out there, but if they can build a Republican coalition and make some gains in South Jersey, I think that that could be their road back. I don't think we're going to see it this year.

Brian Lehrer: Eventually.

Nancy Solomon: Yes. The assembly is 45 Democrats, 34 Republicans, 1 seat's vacant, and the Senate is 25 Democrats, 15 Republicans.

Brian Lehrer: Last question, Nancy. I told you to save that Chris Christie corner of your brain for the end of the segment. He is expected to announce his candidacy for President of the United States or at least the Republican nomination next week. I've seen the national polls of Republican primary voters have Christie at approximately a nice round number called zero. I wonder if you think it's any different in New Jersey or if Trump who's leading in the national polls by far would be much more popular than the former Republican governor in his home state?

Nancy Solomon: Probably, but I don't know. It's irrelevant because the road to the White House for Republicans doesn't run through New Jersey.

Brian Lehrer: This is a primary, but it's so late in the season, is that why?

Nancy Solomon: Yes, it's late in the season and it's not like a California with a huge number of votes. Ultimately, yes, we usually vote way too late in the process. June in fact. It's hard. I think everybody, the press corps and the coverage, everyone's shrugging their shoulders about this Christie candidacy. How could he possibly think he's going to get anywhere? It doesn't seem like what he's presenting is anything different from what he tried against Donald Trump the first time around. Then he's got this problem, that horrible press conference video that went viral when he announced his endorsement of Trump very early in the primary process. He was one of the first big-

Brian Lehrer: In 2016, yes.

Nancy Solomon: -Republicans who dropped-- Yes, in 2016 when he dropped out of the race after he lost New Hampshire, which he had staked his whole strategy on. He lost New Hampshire, and then days later endorsed Trump. He looks like he was being held hostage because he was darting his eyes and looking miserable. He supports Trump and then he starts criticizing Trump and breaks from Trump at a certain point. He ends up getting COVID from a Trump event. It's been a very sordid relationship at this point. I don't see anything that has changed that is going to change the dynamic in the Republican primary between those two.

Brian Lehrer: All right. We will see what happens after Chris Christie presumably enters the Republican presidential primary race next week. Meanwhile, it is primary season in New Jersey right now for the legislature. Today starts early voting. Primary day is Tuesday. Nancy Solomon breaking it all down on gothamist.com in print and of course here on the station on WNYC. Nancy, thanks as always.

Nancy Solomon: Thanks, Brian.

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