[music]

Nikki Haley: The socialist Left sees an opportunity to rewrite history. China and Russia are on the march. They all think we can be bullied, kicked around. You should know this about me, I don't put up with bullies. When you kick back, it hurts them more if you're wearing heels. I'm Nikki Haley, and I'm running for president.

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer show on WNYC. Yes, that was former South Carolina governor and Trump administration UN ambassador, Nicki Haley, from a video released yesterday announcing her 2024 presidential campaign. She and Trump are now the only announced candidates. Here's another clip. The images on the screen during this from her announcement video include New York Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and at another point in big numbers, the date 1619.

Nikki Haley: Some look at our past as evidence that America's founding principles are bad. They say the promise of freedom is just made up. Some think our ideas are not just wrong, but racist and evil. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Brian Lehrer: We have a daughter of Indian immigrants invoking being a woman in high heels in the first clip, and owning the libs in that second clip by downplaying racism as a factor in modern America, even in our history, just like Trump or Ron DeSantis might in similar language. Here's one more excerpt for now, then we'll bring on a South Carolina guest and have him talk us through a few more clips. She asserts without saying why, really, that she'd be better at winning votes than other Republicans who might run.

Nikki Haley: Republicans have lost the popular vote in seven out of the last eight presidential elections. That has to change. Joe Biden's record is abysmal, but that shouldn't come as a surprise. The Washington establishment has failed us over and over and over again. It's time for a new generation of leadership to rediscover fiscal responsibility, secure our border, and strengthen our country, our pride and our purpose.

Brian Lehrer: Nikki Haley is running for president. Let's see what kind of leader she was as a governor and what kind of candidate or president she might make based on that with a journalist who covered Haley when she was governor from 2011 to 2017. It's Andy Shain, Managing Editor of The Post and Courier newspaper from Charleston, South Carolina. We may also touch on the other big presidential race news from South Carolina. Looks like the Democrats will have their first primary there rather than New Hampshire or rather than the Iowa caucuses. Andy, we really appreciate you giving us some time today and giving listeners elsewhere in the US some insight into Nikki Haley. Welcome to WNYC.

Andy Shain: Thank you for having me. Even though I live here in South Carolina, I've got family in the city. It's nice, at least vicariously to be back in the Big Apple.

Brian Lehrer: Glad you're on. I've got some more clips to play, including what she has said about her, what you might call 15 minutes of headline fame nationally when she took down the Confederate flag from the State House after the racist massacre at a Black church in town in 2015. Let's begin with the clip we just heard. Why do you think she invoked that the Republicans have lost the popular vote in seven of the last eight presidential elections?

Nikki Haley: I was born and raised--

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead, Andy. I'm sorry.

Andy Shain: Please play the clip. I apologize.

Brian Lehrer: We played it already. Go ahead and talk about it.

Andy Shain: No problem. I think she invoked it because I think what she is saying is that essentially, she's the candidate to break that cycle. She's really on a razor's edge here when it comes to Donald Trump. She, of course, needs the Donald Trump supporters, some of whom maybe disenchanted with the former president to come over to her side, but of course, doesn't want to turn them off.

At the same time, of course, wants to sort of distance herself from the president to say, "Look, I'm the candidate who can turn essentially this losing streak around," considering again, she's a woman. She's a woman of color. She has, of course, this interesting backstory that she shared about her life and about her parents in this video, and of course, the story that she likes to share of racial reconciliation in the wake of the Charleston church massacre.

Brian Lehrer: A lot of political analysis I hear suggests that the Republicans lose the popular vote, especially Trump, because they're too focused on culture war issues and not enough on making people's lives better. Haley came right out of the box making AOC and the 1619 project the enemies on par with China and Iran, as we watch that video, that's exactly what she does. Do you think she did anything in that video to distinguish herself politically from a Donald Trump or a Ron DeSantis, or is it almost just, "Hey, I'm a woman. I'm a person of color because I'm a daughter of Indian immigrants," and that stands on its own?

Andy Shain: I think what I took away from that is that there's standard things, I think as a Republican or the Democrat, in whatever cycle you're in, you're expected to say and to do. At this moment for the Republicans, coming down against issues on critical race theory, coming down on issues about whether or not we are tough enough against Iran, China, Russia, again, our core values in the Republican base. Again, if you're going to at least even get the folks who may be disenchanted with Trump to come over to you, you're going to have to check these boxes, and those are boxes that I think you're going to see check from Pence, Pompeo, DeSantis, and any of the other Republicans that may get in the race to challenge Donald Trump. I'm not surprised.

Again, her views on how Iran, China, Russia has been able to get away with things was a theme that she hit on when she was UN Ambassador. I think part of also bringing that up is to remind people, "Hey, I may have been South Carolina's Governor, but I also have foreign policy experience from my two years at the UN."

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, anyone out there right now who lives in South Carolina or did live there when Nikki Haley was governor, what stood out to you about Nikki Haley in that role? Good or bad, or neutral or mixed whatever, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer with your stories, your observations, your opinions or questions for Andy Shain, Managing Editor of The Post and Courier in Charleston, 212-433-WNYC, or a tweet @BrianLehrer.

I'm going to play another clip. We asked you to come on because you covered her as governor, not just as a national political figure. Let's get at some of that. Here's another clip from the video where Haley does refer to her time in office there.

Nikki Haley: I was born and raised in South Carolina. I have seen the very best of our country. People here threw out the old tired political establishment and demanded accountability for their tax dollars. Industry reports called us the Beast of the Southeast, which I love. People came by the thousands for fresh starts. Moms and dad held their heads up high, children learned that it was always-- It's a great day in South Carolina. It's a great day. It's a great day, a great day, a great day in South Carolina. We were strong, we were proud.

Brian Lehrer: Nikki Haley, again from her presidential campaign announcement video. Andy, did they really call South Carolina the Beast of the Southeast for job development?

Andy Shain: I think there was a national press reference mentioned in that. It came at a time when the state was gaining a lot of jobs and a lot of economic development announcements. During her time as governor, Boeing which has its only jet manufacturing plant outside of the Seattle region in North Charleston expanded. We brought in a number of tire makers challenging Ohio as the top tire maker in the country. This is aided by the fact that South Carolina is the lowest unionized state in the country. It is a right-to-work state. Labor costs tend to be lower in South Carolina.

Also, of course, because we are one of the fastest growing states in the country, we're getting people, their employees to be heard, so a lot of businesses came in. One of the issues about being the governor of South Carolina is it's a weak governor system. She cannot control legislation, she cannot control the budget. What governors can do is, of course, issue executive orders, evacuate the coast during hurricanes, but also basically act as the chief economic recruiter for the state.

What she realized fairly early on in her time in office, is that that's what she could build on. She would give her cell phone number to CEOs and say, "As you're weighing us versus other states, please call me. I'm going to lobby you directly. I'm going to work with you directly." She was accessible in that way and endeared herself to a lot of these executives trying to weigh what state to come into.

Also, despite the fact that she ran as a Tea Party candidate in 2010, a smaller government, we don't pick winners and giving incentives, she ended up being part of an administration that gave away a lot of incentives, a lot of tax breaks to win these businesses. It's the way that this is done now. In order to win these big companies and win these big industrial sites, you have to offer them all sorts of goodies, so they don't pick North Carolina, Tennessee, Louisiana, Kentucky.

Brian Lehrer: You said she was Tea Party. She was governor, basically, during the Obama years. Did she take a very oppositional approach to Obama policies explicitly?

Andy Shain: She did. Medicare expansion is not something that's happened here. Still hasn't.

Brian Lehrer: Medicaid.

Andy Shain: Medicaid, excuse me. I'm sorry. I haven't had enough coffee this morning. Thank you very much. Medicaid expansion. It was not something that we've done at this point. Of course, we're a Republican state with a Republican-dominated legislature, so it's not likely to happen anytime soon. The feeling is, is that essentially, that the expansion is something that eventually the state will have to pay for and not the federal government. She did vehemently oppose that and other Democratic initiatives during her time.

Again, that was part of being a Republican, and also, at that time, especially early on in her time as governor, being seen as a new brand of Republican with Tim Scott and Marco Rubio as Republicans of color, who could help broaden the base of the party at that time. We're talking about 2012, around the time of the Mitt Romney run.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Sachin in Los Angeles, you're on WNYC. Hi, Sachin.

Sachin: Hey, Brian. Good morning. I was just curious that Nikki Haley, similar to Kamala Harris, is the identity politics on the other side. I've always been surprised that politicians play the immigrant card, but then she changed her religion from being Sikhism, that's her parents religion, to being Christian. I'm just curious, what are your guest's thoughts on that? Unlike the British Prime Minister who kept his religion, and is pretty proud about it, I always find interesting that US politicians or immigrants have to change their religion to fit in.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. Sachin, thank you very much. Is he right on the facts? Did she convert from Sikhism to Christianity?

Andy Shain: She did. She did, as I recall, around the time that she got married, after she graduated from Clemson. I can't remember her exact reasoning for that, but when she was here in the Columbia area, attended a Methodist Church and had converted. As I recall, her wedding was part-Sikh and part-Christian. She does still value participate in Sikh religious events, but identifies as a Christian.

Brian Lehrer: All right. I'm going to follow up on that with you in a second. I'll give one more little push to anybody listening in South Carolina or with ties to South Carolina. We know you're out there. We've done these segments for almost any state, folks. If you're in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, but you come from South Carolina, and maybe you were there when Nikki Haley was governor 2011 to 2017, who's got a story, an observation, an opinion, or a question for journalist Andy Shain, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer.

Andy, maybe we have found the two states that have absolutely no connections to each other. Certainly, if you talk here in the Greater New York area about a state that seems politically and ideologically opposed, South Carolina might be right near the top of the list. Since I gather you have some New York area ties, have a lot of people moved down there? I know we talk about North Carolina in that respect a lot. How about South Carolina?

Andy Shain: Please, you laugh. During COVID we couldn't get rid of New Yorkers. They were all coming down here, and a lot of them have stayed. As I said, we're one of the fastest growing states in the country because we have miles and miles of coast. Whether it's people who are coming down here for jobs, people coming down here because they can remote work, or people coming down here to retire, as they say down South, it's easier to pick Yankees than to pick cotton and make money.

Brian Lehrer: You say that.

Andy Shain: Yes. Well, in the sense that one of the fastest growing counties in the country is Horry County, the county where Myrtle Beach is located. It grew 30% in the past decade between 2010 and 2020. Think about that. 30% growth in a fairly large county. It's amazing. Again, this is part of what, going back to Nikki Haley, of what she was selling about South Carolina, the idea that this is a place where you want to work, you want to live, you want to retire. Lower taxes, more value for your home, that kind of thing.

Again, all the natural resources we have. The northwest corner of the state where she went to college is mountains. I actually live here in Columbia in the geographic center of the state. In two and a half hours, I can be in the mountains. In two hours, I can be at the beach. In an hour and change, I can be in Charlotte. In three and a half hours, I can be in Atlanta. It's the idea that there's a convenience also of living in South Carolina, let alone the amenities, but also to the bigger towns.

Brian Lehrer: The Census Bureau stats I'm seeing for South Carolina, about 5 million people, large majority white, 69%, then Black, 27%, Latino, only 6%, and all Asian American groups, less than 2% of the state population. That's all Asian Americans, no less Indian Americans, which would be a tiny minority. First of all, correct those stats if they're wrong, but I got them off the Census Bureau site, but if they're right, what role did Nikki Haley's daughter of Indian immigrants heritage, which she cited right at the beginning of her video there, and that the caller asked about, play in the way she ran for governor originally?

Andy Shain: Sure. That's an interesting arc that she's had in that way. At first, she didn't really play it up when she ran for governor. In fact, I didn't cover that initial race, but I was at the paper. I was in South Carolina and working with some of the political reporters at the time, and she would chafe at the idea that they would bring up her heritage, and sometimes even her gender, as a factor in it. All of a sudden, she gets elected, and she's on the cover of Newsweek, as I said, this new era of Republicans of color, younger, looking very different than the nominee that they put up for president in 2012 in Mitt Romney. That became an issue, and then she also played it up more in her biography.

She wrote a biography soon after she became governor. Again, that was an issue. That's where a lot of these anecdotes are starting to come from, and anecdotes that you if you're gonna follow the campaign, you're going to hear often about an uncomfortable moment with her father, who was wearing a turban at the time, at a fruit stand in Columbia, and some other things. Also growing up in a rural part of South Carolina where she wasn't Black, she wasn't white, nobody knew what to do with her, so to speak because she was brown. That became part of her narrative, and that has continued to be part of her narrative as she's continued on as governor and clearly saying that right away with the presidential race.

Brian Lehrer: It's one thing to be identified-- How should I put it? It's one thing to emphasize that nobody understands you from any of the larger groups, it's another thing to try to identify with all of them. Did she try to play it both ways like Asian American is white-adjacent, as the term goes, in the way white people might feel about that identity, unthreatened, but also a person of color, so maybe cultivating Black voters' trust based on that? Did she lean into identity in either of those directions in her rise to power or even in both?

Andy Shain: Well, as I said, in her initial rise to power, no. As I said, again, when she ran for governor, that was not something she tried to sell. Obviously, look at her. She was young. She was the youngest governor when she was elected, the youngest governor in the country at the time. You looked at her age, you looked at her gender, and obviously you looked at her and her story. Obviously, she did say that she was the daughter of Indian immigrants.

She was sort of what I would say, make of what you will of her, at that point. I think when she started that as a selling point or as part of her narrative that became again more direct. Because of what she was at that point thinking was or what I'm assuming what she was thinking and what people were saying about her was that she was the new face of the Republican party.

A face that was young, a woman and was a person of color as opposed to the white older men, more specifically that had been identified with the GOP at that point. I think it's basically what I think she is presenting herself and again presenting herself in this presidential race as, see me how you will. I can be a little bit Trumpy in the sense of no CRT, we got to stamp out Iran and China and Russia.

You can see me as someone who can bridge racial and political divides and how we handled things after the Charleston church massacre and then taking down the Confederate flag from the State House grounds. You can see me as a pragmatic person in a time when there's a lot of reactionary things going on.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, on connections between New York and South Carolina. One of my team members who's from Huntington just said her mother just texted her, "Half of Mount Pleasant, South Carolina is from Long Island."

[laughter]

Andy Shain: I wouldn't be surprised.

Brian Lehrer: Sharon in Queens, you're on WNYC. Hi, Sharon.

Sharon: Hi. My family is from a small town Smoaks. I was recently there for my family reunion with 500 people in Charleston. Oprah tried to buy land in Charleston Homes. They wouldn't give her. They're moving people of color out of Charleston. Anybody that's in Charleston is of color is laying on the floor. High rate of drug and alcohol abuse. There is only one development that they're trying to stamp out all people of color. My people that are in South Carolina are doing well, because they have stamped out unions. They will not have any equity in terms of making money if you stamp out the union.

She's just a colored white woman in terms of my opinion, because she'll go, where the wind leads her. You want me to be colored? Then I'll be colored. You want me to be Trumpy? I'll be Trumpy. In terms of development in South Carolina since my father was raised there, there has been no progress because they are bringing white ownership in terms of corporations to take over the whole state.

Brian Lehrer: Sharon, thank you so much for sharing your experience. One more before we get a comment from you on that Andy. I think this is going to run along similar lines from another South Carolina immigrant to New York. Audrey in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hello?

Audrey: Hi. Yes, I have lived in New York for over 20 years, so I've considered myself a New Yorker now. Yes, I grew up in South Carolina, went to USC go game clubs, women's number one basketball team. Got to get the shout out for that and South Carolina, frequently. My issue with Nikki Haley is she gets lots of praise for the Confederate flag issue and I kudos her for that.

However, if you notice, if you look back and your gentleman there may notice better than I do, it seems that people in South Carolina who typically are pro-Second Amendment we're starting to say, "Hey, we need gun reforms." To me, all of a sudden I'm thinking, "Oh we're finally going to get gun reform in South Carolina? "No, what did she do? Pull the Confederate flag issue. It's a very valid issue. I'm not saying it's not, but it was a distraction from the real issue gun reform. Not the real issue, but another equally important issue.

Brian Lehrer: Audrey, thank you very much. In a clip that we're going to play in a minute after a break, Audrey's comment may be exemplified by something Nikki Haley once said on a radio show. Andy, first any reaction to either of those two calls, especially the first call on demographic change and corporatization and no unions, all of that?

Andy Shain: Sure. I'm just trying to think how to frame this. The progress in South Carolina again economically we've gotten a number of jobs, we've gotten a number of new businesses. The jobs are paying more, but they paying in other states. Likely not, I don't know the comparison, but again because we're a right-to-work state. We're low unionized, that's an attraction for these folks. There's a feeling that economic mobility, that social mobility is just not maybe trickling down as people think. We've gotten away from an agriculture based economy. From an economy based on textile mills and other kind of-[unintelligible 00:25:29] [audio cut]

Brian Lehrer: Your phone is breaking up a little bit. [crosstalk] I think you've got that point [inaudible 00:25:35]. Let's take that break.

Andy Shain: -flour mills and tire plants, you [unintelligible 00:25:40] basically manufacturing things, then- [inaudible 00:25:42] [audio cut]

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute with veteran South Carolina journalist Andy Shain on Nikki Haley's leadership there as a model for what kind of president she might make and more of your South Carolina and Nikki Haley, call 212-433, WNYC or tweet @BrianLehrer and we'll get right to the Charleston church massacre and her Confederate flag decision as The Brian Lehrer Show continues.

Brian Lehrer on WNYC. More now on Nikki Haley's history as governor of South Carolina, now that she announced to run for president with South Carolina Post and Courier Managing Editor, Andy Shain and you 212-433, WNYC. To her most famous national moment. There was of course, the white supremacist terror attack by a 21-year-old man named Dylann Roof, who entered the Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, to remind you of the specifics, in June of 2015 and killed nine Black parishioners.

Roof, I believe is currently on death row. Despite a recent arrest before that, that would've prevented him from buying a gun legally. He did buy one legally, because the background check system was too slow to comply with a three-day window after which the purchase would be allowed. Here is Haley from her presidential run announcement video on that incident.

Nikki Haley: When evil did come-

News Anchor 1: "Police in South Carolina are looking for a gunman, following a shooting at a church in downtown-

News Anchor 2: Several victims, we don't know the severity-

Nikki Haley: -we turned away from fear, toward God and the values that still make our country the freest and greatest in the world.

Brian Lehrer: Here is Haley on the Glenn Beck Radio Show in 2019 explaining why she decided to remove the Confederate flag from the State House after that white supremacist attack. This clip is about a minute-and-a-half.

Nikki Haley: South Carolina fell to her knees when this happened. This is one of the oldest African American churches. These 12 people were amazing people. They loved their church, they loved their family, they loved their community. Here is this guy that comes out with his manifesto holding the Confederate flag and had just hijacked everything that people thought of and we don't have hateful people in South Carolina.

There's always the small minority that's always going to be there, but people saw it as service and sacrifice and heritage. Once he did that, there was no way to overcome it. The national media came in droves. They wanted to define what happened. They wanted to make this about racism, they wanted to make it about gun control, they wanted to make it about death penalty.

I really pushed off the national media and said, "There will be a time and place where we talk about this, but it is not now. We're going to get through the funerals, we're going to respect them and then we will have that conversation." We had a really tough few weeks of debate, but we didn't have riots. We had vigils. We didn't have protests, we had hugs. The people of South Carolina stepped up and showed the world what it looks like to show grace and strength in the eyes of tragedy.

Brian Lehrer: Andy, there are a few things to unpack there, but on the basics, was the Confederate flag at the State House an issue before the Dylann Roof shooting and why did it culminate with Nikki Haley deciding to remove it?

Andy Shain: It had been an issue for decades. Confederate flag was first placed over this, placed actually over the dome on the State House. It was the American flag, the South Carolina State flag and the Confederate flag since the anniversary of the Civil War through 2000. What happened was, there was a compromise made to take the flag off the top of the dome and actually put it on the ground, basically on the front lawn of the State House, right in front of one of the busiest intersections in town for the next 15 years.

From 2000 to 2015, the Confederate flag was pretty much-- You could see right off the street. It had been an issue. The NAACP had initiated a boycott of South Carolina tourism, South Carolina. The NCAA would not award championship tournaments in South Carolina because of the flag and so in the end, it ended up being an issue, but it never moved until Dylann Roof.

Nikki Haley had been in office at that point for a little over a term. She was in the first year of her second term when the Emanuel church shooting had took place. During her reelection campaign, during a debate, she was asked about the flag during a debate and said that she had not heard from any CEOs saying that it was a detriment to South Carolina. This was a quite of a turn of events that happened with Dylann Roof. Of course, it was horrific.

What happened for those who don't know, he essentially walked into a small church Bible study at this prominent Black church in downtown Charleston. Sat there for a long period of time and then got up and started shooting people, including the Reverend who was a State Senator. It turned out that he did have online a manifesto and he's holding the Confederate flag in one of his photos. That was enough that governor Haley started the effort to try to get the flag removed from the grounds, at that point- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Do you think that the previous caller was correct to any degree in saying that she focused on the flag to distract attention from the rising call for gun control that also grew out of that incident?

Andy Shain: Well, this happened very quickly after the shooting. She decided this days after the shooting a about that, I don't know, it was necessarily about distracting from the calls about gun control issues. Again, it's when you have multiple fires, gun control, having the Confederate flag on the most prominent building in the state, there were a lot of issues going on. She focused first on getting the flag down, and it was down within weeks after the shooting, which is a huge--

Again, think about it, this flag had been up for 50 years in some form at our State house. It came down in a matter of weeks after the Dylann Roof shooting. There were calls and there were a number of bills introduced to take care of a number of issues dealing with gun control and gun purposes. None of it went anywhere. Again, we're a red state, we're a Republican-dominated legislature. There was no appetite, even though one of their own, a state senator had been one of the people slain at this mass shooting, they didn't change any of it. They didn't change any of the rules. They didn't change any of the laws. It wasn't really, I mean, in the end, you can do what you can do and we moved on after that. In fact-[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: How was- [crosstalk]

Andy Shain: [unintelligible 00:33:20] any democrats then yes, one second [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Is it possible-[crosstalk]

Andy Shain: [unintelligible 00:33:22] the Democrats of the state-

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Andy Shain: -and they were disappointed.

Brian Lehrer: Is it possible to say how the flag decision has played over time with white South Carolinians? It was a number of years later that Trump decided to dig in on the Robert E Lee statue in preserving that in Charlottesville, that famous and horrific incident. How is this played with white South Carolinians, if you have any sense of that?

Andy Shain: Sure. I do. I have an interesting point also to bring up about Charlottesville as well. Of course, there's a group of South Carolinians who thought this was a wrong thing. What's interesting about the flag debate was it was a state senator who was killed in the massacre. It flew through the state Senate fairly quickly. There were two long days of debate in the House of Representatives with a number of lawmakers still trying to find a way to keep the flag on the State House grounds. I think if you talk to some South Carolinians, they'll say, again, they feel, they see it as a sign of history and a sign of their family's legacy and not as a symbol of hate.

It's ingrained here. It's just the way it is. It's maybe, as you know, it's hard to sometimes explain why do New Yorkers like certain things or do certain things. The same with a group of individuals down here who see the flag, as I said, as a historical piece and as a piece honoring their family's legacy. To Charlottesville real quick, and again, this might be a reminder to the people that after Charlottesville, Nikki Haley had a chat with Donald Trump about his comments, where she essentially, again said with some grace and some velvet hammer told President Trump that she thought his comments weren't quite appropriate and shouldn't be encouraging that kind of thing.

Again, I think that's something you're going to hear about during her run for president. That she was able to be in his Cabinet, but also be able to admonish him at times when she thought he crossed a line.

Brian Lehrer: Webb in Bloomfield, New Jersey, a Clemson grad and Native South Carolinian. Hey, Webb, thanks for calling in. You're on WNYC.

Webb: Good morning, Brian. I would like to let you know that my family is still in South Carolina and they all love Nikki Haley. I think the divide is more of a Black, white divide. The Black voters that I know of in South Carolina aren't really that thrilled with Nikki, even though, probably because she's a Republican. I think she will do well in the South, and we'll see how the primary system goes in pushing her forward. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Webb, thank you very much. Jonathan in Hilton Head, South Carolina, right now you're on WNYC. Hi, Jonathan.

Jonathan: Yes, I'm going to try to manage this with the beach and walking the dog right now on the beach. My family has a home here in Hilton Head. And I will say like, I think it's a beautiful place to vacation. It's a great place to ride the bike on the beach and walk the dogs. However, what I find, when I remember a few years ago there was one of the bridges out, and I had to take this detour the long way around, and I cut into more of inner South Carolina, let's say. As a person who travels all over the world for my job as a flight attendant, it is on, I mean, just noticeably, the poverty is on par with second and almost borderline third world. I think that this is something that a lot of Northeasterners forget.

They might come to the South to retire because of the sun, the tax incentive, blah, blah, blah. However, there's no union impact here. What do unions do? They build the middle class and it's like, I just think there's good things about every state. As having family that has property here in a area that's a very-- It's probably one of the wealthier areas of South Carolina. I feel that it's a state of islands that there are certain islands of wealth and privilege.

There's the vast majority of the state, you still have very little economic activity happening. Lots of-- I remember going to Charleston one time and going to one of the plantation tours, and they had people still living in the former huts of the slaves until the 1980s. I just think that there's so many issues that get looked over when they see low taxes and sunshine. It's a good state in some ways, but there's a lot of systemic issues that are, haven't been dealt with- [crosstalk] [unintelligible 00:38:39].

Brian Lehrer: Jonathan, thank you for your call. I really, really appreciate it. Sometimes you'll just need a little push. Nobody called in right at the beginning, and then I said, I know you're out there. People with ties to New York from New York and South Carolina, and our board has been full the whole rest of the segment. We're almost out of time. I want to touch a couple of more things. Here's a question that I was going to ask, but I'll give it to you from a listener via Twitter, listener tweets. What about Haley and abortion? Is she going to be able to pull women over without supporting the right to choice?

Andy Shain: Abortions are going to be-- That is a pretty much a black and white crystal issue. You're either for it, you're against it. Maybe you're willing to go with some circumstances, but she's been a right to life advocate, in the governorship. Of course since, so if that's going to be the litmus test that you do in choosing a candidate you know where she's going to stand on this issue. I think what she's going to say is that there are broader issues for women that are out there.

Brian Lehrer: That's informative. And last thing briefly before you go, on the Democrats making South Carolina the first primary state, bumping it up over New Hampshire and Iowa. We know South Carolina basically made Joe Biden the nominee in 2020. I'm curious why, very brief revisiting of that in a largely Black democratic electorate. Why Biden with all his racial baggage over Kamala Harris or Cory Booker, or for that matter, Bernie Sanders with Universal Healthcare and other disparity-leveling policies?

Andy Shain: Sure. Biden has been a fixture in South Carolina for decades. He vacations here. He has visited here. He came after Emanuel. He's come for all sorts of events. The joke is that he was the third senator from South Carolina or that he was a de facto resident here. He had made alliances with some of the top Democrats that we have in the state, most notably Jim Clyburn, who until the Republicans took over was the third-ranking Democrat in Congress. He had basically made great inroads over decades in South Carolina.

In the end, I think that some Democrats in South Carolina are a little more conservative than maybe you might have, are less progressive, than some Democrats in other states or in other districts say. Again, it's interesting when I do visit family in the city in the Northeast how we sort of see Democratic candidates a little differently and how they act. For instance, I'll give an example that the top Democrat in the South Carolina State House of Representatives is pro-gun, is pro-Second Amendment. We come at it from a little different angle, I think, South Carolina- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Let me jump in just because we're almost out of time.

Andy Shain: Sure.

Brian Lehrer: I don't think Biden will be primaried if he runs. Is moving the first primary to South Carolina something other than Biden grabbing at the early advantage as you see it down there?

Andy Shain: I think real quick, two factors are in there. Number one the Iowa caucuses make no sense and it's- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: I think people in 49 states agree with that, by the way.

Andy Shain: Yes, exactly. I went through a mock caucus once during a seminar in Iowa, and I came out with less understanding about it than I did going in. Not to slam Iowa, great state, great people. I just don't understand. Basically, the caucuses don't seem to be a terribly effective way maybe of doing this. The other thing is South Carolina is seen as compared to New Hampshire and Iowa, having that diversity again, you mentioned 28% African American throwing the rest, you're talking about basically a third non-white.

You get some idea of where minority voters are looking at for a candidate as opposed to states like Iowa and New Hampshire, which have more white voters than they do here in South Carolina. The other thing they also like about South Carolina or why politicians say they like it, it is a small state with just a few major markets. You don't have to spend a lot of money to get your message out and at least to the voters in South Carolina, and you still get all that national attention you're going to get from The Times, Politico, NBC, ABC, CNN, Fox, et cetera.

Brian Lehrer: South Carolina Post and Courier Managing Editor, Andy Shain, thanks for so much insight into Nikki Haley and the politics of the state, as she now is a candidate for president, the only one announced other than Donald Trump. Andy, thank you so much.

Andy Shain: No problem with that. Thank you for having me today.

 

 

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