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Brian: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Punxsutawney Phil, and frankly, just about everyone in the world saw their shadows this morning and decided to go hibernate for another six weeks. In fact, if we all agree to actually do that with only the most essential of essential services continuing to bring everyone food and medicine for six weeks and that's it, we could probably beat back the pandemic like a few countries actually did at the beginning a year ago, but that's not how we roll. It's just a groundhog, smarter than we think, choosing to chill, until mid-March.

Meanwhile, it's a very interesting moment in national politics with Mitch McConnell denouncing Marjorie Taylor Greene, her Republican House colleagues, not so much. Bipartisan negotiations, but to what end, on a COVID relief bill as Democrats are learning from Obama era history, and don't want talks to drag on and bogged down. The impeachment trial a week from today.

Then there was this, we should all stop for a few minutes if you can find the time today and watch or listen to at least part of Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Instagram Live presentation from last night in which she openly discussed the moment during the insurrection, when someone broke into her office, and she was afraid she was going to die literally. She heard a pounding on her door and someone shouting, "Where is she?", and then she describes where she was as that person broke through.

Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: I'm here and the bathroom door starts going like this, like the bathroom door's behind me, or rather in front of me, and I'm like this, and the door hinges right here. I just hear, "Where is she? Where is she?" This was the moment where I thought everything was over. The weird thing about moments like the these is that you lose all sense of time. In retrospect, maybe it was four seconds.

Brian: Well, it turned out to be a Capitol police officer breaking in during those four seconds, but he hadn't identified himself according to the congresswoman, and she had no way of knowing at first whether he was there to protect her or attack her. The Congresswoman then reveals that she is a survivor of sexual assault, and puts the response that she thinks is required to the insurrection in that context.

Some of her lines, those who have argued that it is time to move on from the events of that day were, "Using the same tactics of every other abuser who just tells you to move on. Tactics, of "that man who touched you inappropriately at work, telling you to move on." Are they going to believe you or the adult who, you know, if they hurt you when you were a child and you grow up and you confront them about it, and they try to tell you that what happened, never happened." From New York City congresswoman, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez from her Instagram Live presentation last night.

As her colleagues in the house decide whether and how much to punish Marjorie Taylor Greene, who liked a tweet suggesting someone put a bullet in Nancy Pelosi's head. With that as prelude, with me now, Jake Sherman and Anna Palmer founders of a new national politics news website focused primarily on Congress, which just made it stay debut yesterday, called Punchbowl News. Many of you know Jake and Anna as the authors previously of the widely read Political Playbook newsletter every day.

They're now making one for Punchbowl, and hosting a podcast called The Daily Punch and maybe you know their bestseller from 2019. The book about Congress during the first two years of the Trump administration with the title that might've just been a play on words back then, but it's frighteningly chilly now. It was called, The Hill to Die On: The Battle for Congress and the Future of Trump’s America. Jake and Anna, thanks for coming on as always. Welcome back to WNYC.

Jake Sherman: Thanks for having us.

Anna Palmer: Great to be here.

Brian: Have you thought about your two-year old book titles since the insurrection?

Jake: Yes, and Anna and I have probably never talked about this, but it's been pointed out to us that it might not be the most appropriate title now. Obviously, we didn't know that there would be a riot or insurrection in the Capitol in 2017 when we titled the book. Obviously, the book is we discussed with you, Brian, when the book came out several years ago, was about, it was more metaphorical about issues and people taking controversial stances but yes, I think we would probably name it something differently were we writing it today. Right, Anna?

Anna: Yes. Listen, I think we were looking at it as issues and things that members of Congress come to Washington, and for better or for worse, stick their stake in the ground on it. This is clearly we're in a very different period, but it does seem like a foreshadowing that neither of us, obviously knew what would happen, but if you think in light of what's happened-- Go ahead, sorry.

Brian: Oh, I was just going to say, I don't mean to suggest and I hope you're not taking it this way, that the book title at the time was inappropriate, just that there was the metaphor that people use in writing, and now look how far we've descended in these last two years to where it is literally true, a hill to die on. Can you help put the AOC Instagram speech into that context? It seems to me that more's coming out every day about how bad it really was there on January 6th.

Anna: Yes, I'll take this to sort of but-- [crosstalk], but I would just say--

Jake: Sorry, go ahead, Anna.

Anna: I think one of the things that is important on AOC is just what a communicator she is, and she communicates directly straight into the camera in a very powerful Instagram Live. I think what you're starting to hear is more stories come out because as members have had time, as the congresswoman had time and distance from it actually happening, I think there's PTSD. I think there's a lot of distrust of the cops.

I think you can hear that in a AOC video there, and there's a huge reckoning that we wrote about today, that's happening in and around the Capitol, around security, around the future of how members are going to interact with each other, how their spouses and their children are going to probably interact in public. There's a lot of fear right now and I think she hit that in a way that was very personal and very raw.

Brian: What's the latest you're seeing on how coordinated-- sure, Jake, go ahead.

Jake: I just wanted to say one thing, Brian, I'm sorry for interrupting. I think it's one of the rare instances that it's gotten worse with time. I was here that day and I think looking back at all the things we now know and how close we were to a really calamitous disaster. I'm not underplaying what happened, but just how close we were to a massacre is quite scary.

Brian: Is there any indication that either Trump or any Republican members of Congress knew that a violent break-in was being planned?

Jake: No. We didn't have any idea of that, and I don't think any members of Congress knew that. There's a lot of people who assume or suppose that that some of these people knew, some of the members of Congress knew, and were giving tours and what has been called reconnaissance tours of the Capitol. I don't have any evidence that that's true or not true, and there's obviously criminal investigations into this in the House. We reported this this morning, the leadership of the House is going to or is considering creating a 9/11 style commission to study the instance, to study the insurrection at the Capitol on January 6th. We don't have any evidence of that at this point, but I think we'll find out before long.

Brian: I'm wondering, Anna, if you expect Trump's knowledge of events that day as they were going on, or prior to that day, if any, to play a role at his impeachment trial, in addition to his month's long riling people up with the angry lie that the election had been rigged and stolen.

Anna: I think what we're starting to see just now in how the House Democrats are going to present their cases, they really want to focus on what he said. I think they're trying to make a direct argument between the president's appearance, and then what took place afterward. I don't know that it'll go back in the weeks after the election and the fomenting, I assume there will be some of that, but I do think that what we're starting to see the House trying to really focus in on that day. They got to think it's a real, just a concrete way. All those members, all those senators were there, they experienced it.

Brian: Personally. I hope they do go back because I think it's a weaker case to say that he gave a speech at a rally just before the insurrection, in which he said on the one hand, go there peacefully, on the other hand, fight and be strong, and things like that. Without the context, for months, even before the election, he refused to say that he would engage in a peaceful transfer of power if he lost. He was implying only if it was not rigged to my eye, and then riling people up for months with the big lie. "This has been rigged. This has been stolen. You should be angry," at the same time as refusing to rule out violence. It seems to me that there's a larger timeframe case to be made, but I guess we'll find out next week if they make it.

I want to go on to Marjorie Taylor Greene, the freshmen Republican Congresswoman from Georgia. Could you remind our listeners who may not follow stories like this so closely actually, what she has said and done that's been so inflammatory that the discussion now is about consequences?

Jake: Yes, she said just about everything, Brian, under the sun. She suggested that some sort of large group of Jewish people have put a laser in space to cause wildfires and events like that. She has said, made Islamophobic comments, has suggested that Sandy Hook and the Parkland massacres were false flag operations, that were not real shootings. These are not fringe opinions. These are not fringe ideas. These are beyond fringe. These are absolute lunacy. People would be looked at if they said this on the street as something might've been wrong with them.

Now, she was elected by a huge margin in the Northwest, Northeast rather, Georgia district. There's been a movement among Republicans and Democrats, frankly, to remove her from her congressional committees. Democrats are going to take action to do that if the Republican leadership does not. It's unlike, listen, we've had people with controversial opinions. These aren't controversial opinions, these are racist and bigoted opinions that are just so far outside the mainstream that Democrats are considering taking what's otherwise an unprecedented action.

Brian: Listeners, if you're just joining us, my guests are Jake Sherman and Anna Palmer who's newsletter for Politico, The Playbook, maybe you have read over the years and now they have just founded, it debuted yesterday, Punchbowl News, and they're doing a newsletter for that and a podcast called The Daily Punch. Guys, we'll let you promote your new thing as we go here, but let me invite our listeners to call in on anything that we've been talking about or might get to with Jake and Anna at 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280, or tweet @BrianLehrer.

House Republican leader, Kevin McCarthy seems to be dealing with Marjorie Taylor Greene gently but less so now, Mitch McConnell looking on from the Senate. He released a statement yesterday that didn't mention her name, but clearly, it was about her. McConnell wrote and listeners, if you haven't heard this yet, it's another example of things you never expected to hear out of Mitch McConnell's mouth or in this case, from his pen, he wrote "Loony lies and conspiracy theories are cancer for the Republican party and our country.

Someone who suggested that perhaps no airplane hit the Pentagon on 9/11, that horrifying school shootings were pre-staged, and that the Clinton's crashed JFK Jr.'s airplane is not living in reality. This has nothing to do with the challenges facing American families or the robust debates on substance that can strengthen our party."

Anna, why did Mitch McConnell weigh in on a member of the House and why have her House Republican colleagues, in the House of Representatives where she serves, been mostly silent?

Anna: I would say a couple things. One, I think it's very unusual. You can't underscore how unusual it is for, certainly Senate minority leader, Mitch McConnell, Mitch McConnell to weigh in to House affairs, but just in general, usually you don't see a lot of crosstalk between the chambers and policing of their own members. I think that that's important to understand, because the second point I would make is this is really about the battle for the future of the Republican party.

That might sound dramatic to listeners, but I think that it is no less dramatic than what it is. I think Mitch McConnell's concerned about what the future of Republicans and conservatives is going to look like in terms of 2022, 2024. Donald Trump is no longer the president. He's no longer the leader of the Republican party, and I think you see Mitch McConnell filling that void a bit in the statements he made there.

I think the reality is for Kevin McCarthy and House Republicans, Kevin McCarthy doesn't like to publicly take on members like this. There's a lot of Trump Republicans and Marjorie Taylor Greene has aligned herself with the president, has had a phone call, has tweeted about it, and so I think nobody wants on the House side to catch the ire of the president, particularly as Kevin McCarthy looks to 2022, and trying to become the next Speaker of the House.

Brian: For additional context, let me read a little from today's Michelle Goldberg column in the New York Times, it starts, " Steve King, the Republican former Congressman from Iowa must feel robbed. Two years ago, he was stripped of all his committee assignments after asking in an interview with the New York Times, "White nationalists, white supremacists, Western civilization, how did that language become offensive?" He really asked white nationalists, white supremacists. How did that language become offensive?"

Then as Michelle reminds us the Republican Party through its weight behind King's primary challenger and he was whisked off the national stage. Then she draws a contrast with Marjorie Taylor Greene. As it happens this week, House Republicans are seeking to punish a prominent woman in their ranks, but it's not Greene. A big chunk of the House Republican caucus is reportedly trying to oust Liz Cheney of Wyoming from leadership because she voted to impeach Donald Trump for inciting the January 6th insurrection." Jake, how would you put that in context?

Jake: Well, Liz Cheney is out of step, frankly, no matter what you think of former President Trump and what he did, and no one is suggesting that what he did was appropriate or proper. Liz Cheney is out of step with most Republicans. The vast majority of Republicans are with Trump, and believe that he should not be brought up on charges or impeached, and Liz Cheney has been on the wrong side of her colleagues on several issues.

Now, we don't know whether she's going to lose that spot. Although, if I were a gambling man, I would say that she probably will lose that spot. It does speak, Brian, to how much of a shift there has been in Republican politics. A Cheney, somebody who's the daughter of former Vice President Dick Cheney is under heat, and under the microscope for not being a loyal enough Republican, something we would have never assumed what happened in modern-day Republican politics.

Brian: Let's take a phone call. Nora, in Westchester, you're on WNYC. Hi there, Nora.

Nora: Yes. Hi. Thanks so much for taking my call and I rarely get to call in these days because usually working, but anyway, and I'm out for snow day today. I just can't believe that Marjorie Taylor Greene is even in Congress after the things that she has said. It's incredible. People in other countries must be like, just looking at this, and shaking their heads.

Brian: Nora, thank you. Well, go ahead. Did you want to finish your thought, Nora? Go ahead. No, you go.

Nora: Yes, well, it's like the plot to kidnap the governor of Michigan. It's like the uprisings that took place in the spring at state legislatures, bringing guns into the legislative chambers. How can this happen?

Brian: Nora, thank you. Anna, Nora asked rhetorically, what must other people in other countries think about Marjorie Taylor Greene being in Congress. Here's a tweet that has come in from a listener with a question for you as a political reporter. It says, "Has anyone gone to her district to explore what they think of their new congresswoman?" That's an interesting question. Maybe they thought one thing casually, when they were just choosing Republican over Democrat in November and now maybe more has come to light and they have different points of view, or maybe they support her in her district. Is there any way to know?

Anna: These aren't things that Marjorie Taylor Greene just started espousing. It's not as if she got elected, and then she put a supercharge on her comments on QAnon and other, the racist, the bigoted things. These are things that have been well-known and documented. I think there's been some stories that have come out about other members of her seat delegation who are embarrassed in Georgia and who don't think it's great considering the fact that you saw two Senate Democrats win. If you're a Republican there, you wonder what that might mean for the future of Republicans in Georgia.

So far, I have not, since the election been, to her district. It's a good question. She has not backed down at all. I will say, I think Jake and I often talk about Punch Bowl, where what we cover is power, people, politics. Most politicians are motivated by getting elected, staying elected, moving up in leadership. She has not said that she's worried at all about any of her congressional voters or folks abandoning her, and so far, we haven't seen any reporting to that degree, or I haven't anyway.

Brian: We'll continue in a minute, stay with us. Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Jake Sherman, and Anna Palmer and your calls.

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Brian Lehrer on WNYC with Jake Sherman and Anna Palmer, previously of the Political Playbook, which many of you may subscribe to if you follow national politics. Now, they've started their own news organization called Punchbowl News. They're doing a daily national politics newsletter focused on Congress for that and a podcast called The Daily Punch. We'll get a little more information about this new news organization toward the end of the segment, but it's the same Jake Sherman and Anna Palmer. Some of you also know Jake as a regular contributor to MSNBC. Let's take another phone call. James in New Brunswick, you're on WNYC. Hi, James, thanks for calling in.

James: Good morning, Brian. I love your show. My question is that Greene's conspiracy theories were so far out of mainstream, but now more and more Americans are starting to believe them and it's coming more and more towards the center. How was it that we can get this back into the fringe where we're not talking about it so much, where it's not the reality given that so many people are buying into it?

Brian: Thank you for that question. Jake, if you guys had the answer to that, you wouldn't just be writing a politics newsletter, right?

Jake: I'd be doing something different, I guess. I think that it starts with, if you don't like people who are elected, you got to run people who you believe can beat them. That's the crux of the issue. You have to beat people with candidates and Marjorie Taylor Greene, I said she was Northeast Georgia, she's Northwest Georgia, my apologies. This is a very conservative district where people are presumably consuming one side of the news.

I think that outside of New York and Washington and the East Coast and the West Coast, there's a whole country where Donald Trump and some of these views QAnon, all these bizarre, dangerous conspiracy theories are commonplace and are believed. Marjorie Taylor Greene has suggested QAnon is a real thing, and has suggested all sorts of insane hurtful and bizarre theories are okay. I don't know what the answer is, but it starts with, if you're interested in civic engagement and civic life, you need to go run and support candidates, and knock on doors, and do anything you can.

Brian: Let me read a tweet from a listener who says, "Why are we giving airtime to that congresswoman--", meaning talking about her, "Why not discuss how COVID bill is going to go, or how Biden is doing." Of course, we're doing all those things too, in many segments on the show. Let me turn that question around a little bit to focus it on Congress. Because the Democrats obviously feel it is important to talk about Marjorie Taylor Greene when they could, in theory, be writing her off as one fringe member in a 4,435-member body, the House of Representatives.

She did like a tweet calling for a bullet to be put in the head of Nancy Pelosi, as well as some of these other things. Anna, maybe you could tell us how important the Democratic leadership feels it is that apparently, even though, they're not supposed to control the Republican members, they may take action against her today or tomorrow on their own.

Anna: It's definitely unprecedented, what is happening, if the House Democrats do take the steps to remove her from the committee assignments. I think it's a couple of things. One, I do think it's a political winner. People probably are offended when I say that, but I think for Democrats, being able to show in stark a contrast with Republicans as possible is something that they are trying to do. The more they focus on Marjorie Taylor Greene as being representative of the Republican Party, it will help their chances of maintaining their slim majority in the House and hopefully, from their perspective, time to grow it.

I also do think that in the context of January 6th and what happened in the Capitol, that words matter, and that everyone is on edge. It's not as if Marjorie Taylor Greene is all of a sudden really shifting her posture. She's continuing to use a lot of the same language, a lot of the same kind of tone. I think her both, not just Nancy Pelosi, but also Kevin McCarthy tells his members repeatedly. They haven't really paid attention to him, but that it isn't, this is not the time to single out members, or on the attack for them, because of the heightened security risk.

Brian: Another listener asks, "Do your guests think that Trump loyalists in Congress may turn out to be overrating Trump's staying power?" Do you have an opinion about that?

Jake: I think I I've been pretty bearish on Trump running again. I have no information or reporting, and I'm not sure that Trump has made the decision yet, from people that I've spoken to. His staying power? I don't know. It's less about him in my estimation, and more about what he represents, which is this brand of politics that we know so well, we've known the last several years. I do think that, again, there are 200 members of the House Republican conference.

I would say 85% to 90% of them are from districts that Republicans hold quite easily and quite comfortably, where Donald Trump has a big majority. He's going to be around this cycle, meaning for the 2022 elections. Whether he's active or not, I don't know, but he's going to be around. I think his brand of politics and his approval in these districts is going to matter.

Brian: Biden met yesterday with 10 Senate Republicans to see if there is a bipartisan way forward on the next COVID relief bill. They started out a whopping $1.4 trillion apart on total amount of help to send, including, from what I read, there is still zero aid to state and local governments in the Republican proposal, but they did have a meeting. The leader of the Republican 10, Susan Collins said this, afterwards.

Susan Collins: It was a very good exchange of views. I wouldn't say that we came together on a package tonight. No one expected that in a two- hour meeting, but what we did agree to do is to follow up and talk further at the staff level, and amongst ourselves, and with the president and vice president, on how we can continue to work together on this very important issue.

Brian: The tone at least, from both sides is very different than any Trump meeting with Democratic leaders. What's the big picture?

Anna: I think the big picture on this is looking at how Joe Biden wants to do politics. That it is ushering in a very different tone, I think from where you wrote this morning, that Republicans, particularly Senate Republicans, are looking for normalcy. They're tired of the Donald Trump style brand of politics. They want to be relevant in this. Even if there's some massive bipartisan deal on this, which right now, it doesn't appear that it is, Democrats are going forward with their own plan. That at least, they can have a back and forth and an exchange.

I do think it was significant. You really see, this is where Joe Biden wants to be. He said it many, many times. I'm not sure that we're going to have a bunch of big bipartisan deals, but at least I feel like they're in the game and are being heard.

Brian: How much opportunity do you think there is for the. Democrats to get things done on other bills if they make some kind of compromise with the Republicans on this? Because on the one hand, the Democrats certainly believe in their bill. The president certainly believes in his bill, and that it's the right size, and that there are real dire consequences for millions of Americans who so desperately need various kinds of relief if they go too small.

On the other hand, I'm curious for you as a political analyst, to tell me how much you think President Biden is asking himself this question. Is there an opportunity here to establish a Republican group of 10 that works with Democrats on compromises rather than filibustering future legislation, if they make a compromise on this, if he, Biden, agrees to a compromise on this? I think one piece of background worth knowing, listeners, is that because this can be framed as a budget bill, it's outside the usual filibuster rules. They can do it with 51 votes. According to the rules of the Senate, it's probably okay.

Many, many other things that they want to get done. Immigration reform, many racial justice things, lots of stuff, some Republicans can filibuster it, and those bills will go nowhere because they would need 60 votes on those. How much is this a salient question in Washington and for the president in particular? Is there an opportunity to split off 10 Republicans from the more radical, larger wing, and build a bipartisan coalition that gets other things done if they're willing to compromise on this or is that not the question?

Jake: I think it's a question. I don't think it's the question. I think each issue is taken on its own. On this issue specifically, Brian, the president wants $1.9 trillion. He probably won't go much below that. He definitely won't go below a trillion, and I don't believe these Republicans, according to our reporting, will go above a trillion. I think there's a big delta between what the Republicans can handle, and what Biden wants, and that the lowest he could go.

I think theoretically, if there was some sort of deal here, I don't think that begets a deal elsewhere. I just don't think it's going to work like that. On certain issues though, there are a group of Republicans, that said, there are a group of Republicans who are willing to work with the president, mostly represented in this group of 10. I think that's a good place to start looking on some issues if you're looking for progress over the next couple of years.

Brian: Anna, anything to add to that?

Anna: No, I agree with Jake. I think his points are right on there. I think it's a question, I don't think it's the question.

Brian: We're just about out of time, but first Punchbowl News, it debuted yesterday. Plug away. What is it?

Anna: Punchbowl News is a morning. We do a three times a day newsletter, the morning is free. We are super focused on power, people, politics in Washington, decoding what is happening here, non-biased, nonpartisan. We also have a daily, The Daily Punch, which is a Monday through Friday daily podcast, Jake and myself, going through the top stories of the day. Jake, what else?

Jake: We are focused on power, people, and politics, Brian, and we're focused on the 50 people who matter in Washington, why they make decisions, the decisions they're making, but actually debuted January 3rd, the podcast just debuted this week. Again, if you're interested in Congress-- [crosstalk]

Brian: Oh, it's the podcast that debuted this week. Sorry, I'm just catching up with you, sorry.

Jake: No, don't worry. Don't worry. Doesn't make a difference, very kind of you either way. The idea is if you're looking to understand the politics of governing and the politics of legislating, this is the place to go. That's the main focus of what we're doing,

Brian: Jake Sherman and Anna Palmer, now with Punchbowl News, and their newsletter and their Daily Punch podcast and the rest of their content. Thanks a lot for coming on with us today. We appreciate it.

Anna: Appreciate it. Thanks so much.

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