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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. The station has more or less been in special coverage of the Afghanistan and Haiti situations for more than 24 hours now through the BBC and other sources. For this as a local program, we're going to move away from those two situations for part of our time to talk about major developments also taking place in our immediate area, including the Supreme Court throwing out part of New York State's eviction moratorium. We'll have Congressman Adriano Espaillat on that.

He's holding an emergency town hall tomorrow on rent relief. We have teachers' union president Randi Weingarten today on the changing and confusing back-to-school policies with school coming so close and with, of course, the Delta variant raging. We also include Haiti and Afghanistan as well during today's show. We'll begin with the latest on the transition from Andrew Cuomo to Kathy Hochul as governor of New York and the many implications of that.

Governor in waiting, Hochul, was on several of the national Sunday morning shows yesterday. Among other things, she reaffirmed her support for a mask mandate for kids in school, said she will run for a full term next year, and made a promise about who she will pick as lieutenant governor.

Kathy Hochul: I am an Upstater even though I've spent thousands of hours in New York City and I'm familiar with the challenges, but I want someone who lives there. I want someone who understands the challenges firsthand.

Brian Lehrer: Kathy Hochul on Face the Nation on CBS. With us now, Casey Seiler, editor of the Albany Times Union. Among many other things in its coverage of the Cuomo scandals, he was cited by name in Attorney General Letitia James' report on some very revealing ways the Cuomo administration tried to influence his coverage. Casey, thanks so much for your time today during such a busy time. Welcome back to WNYC.

Casey Seiler: Brian, thank you very much for having me on. I appreciate it.

Brian Lehrer: Who's this New York City person Hochul will name as the lieutenant governor? Got any information on that?

Casey Seiler: No, in addition to the names that have been floated, she has said that she, of course, wants to bring diversity to the ticket, which is smart governance as well as smart politics as well. No, beyond the names that have been floated, I have nothing additional.

Brian Lehrer: New York City public advocate Jumaane Williams ran against Hochul in the Democratic primary in 2018 for lieutenant governor and came pretty close to winning. He's popular in the city. He's an African American man, which would give Hochul that diversity. Any chance of a unity ticket here or do you think past politics would rule that out?

Casey Seiler: I think it was Lincoln who extolled the idea of a team of rivals, so that would definitely be the argument for that kind of a selection. Certainly, that kind of pick would do a lot to assuage the concerns of the progressive wing of the party, who, in the past, have expressed concerns about Hochul based largely on some of her past positions, for example, on driver's licenses for undocumented immigrants and some of her gun rights positions, many of which she has shifted, she has evolved on.

She addressed that in her press conference last week. Clearly, she is likely going to pick somebody who is to her left. That's almost a lock, I think it's fair to say.

Brian Lehrer: Let me play a clip of Hochul on that from CNN State of the Union yesterday. Here, she talks really to Downstate progressives, though she doesn't put it that way, but I think she's talking to Downstate progressives about her sometimes conservative past.

Kathy Hochul: I represented the most conservative district in the State of New York in a Republican area that I won because I said I would support protecting Medicare. I stayed with the Obama administration to my own detriment, so I'm a fighter, but I also know the issues in New York City and how there's a different philosophy. I'm the one person who can bring it together.

Brian Lehrer: "I'm the one person who can bring it together." Hochul has had a good rating from the NRA at one time and had previously opposed driver's licenses for undocumented immigrants, which we should say she did come to support years ago by now. How would you describe her on a left-right spectrum?

Casey Seiler: She's a centrist, I think it's fair to say. I think you've got to talk about Kathy Hochul pre-Cuomo and post-Cuomo. Of course, he selected her in 2014 as his running mate. There was talk in 2018 that he might have wanted to dump her from the ticket, which was a suggestion that she pushed back against and nothing came of it. She's definitely evolved. She has moved leftward.

I think it's probably fair to say that Cuomo moved leftward as well, especially after 2016 when you saw the progressive wing of the party really take flight and then, of course, in 2018 with progressives in the state senate, for example, succeeding in the ouster of the Independent Democratic Conference, which, up until that time, had been closely allied with the GOP even for a period of time enabling the GOP minority to control the chamber along with the IDCs collaboration.

It's a very different Democratic Party now than it was back in 2010. When you're a member of Congress, your concerns are going to be those of your district, and she correctly points out that that is a fairly conservative district. That's why it ended up flipping back to the control of two fairly rascally Republicans as it turned out. Now, of course, as she noted, she represents the whole state.

I would compare her evolution to that of Kirsten Gillibrand who held a lot of similar positions on a variety of issues, gun rights being one of them when she was a member of Congress. Then, of course, when she became a senator representing the whole state, she adjusted many of those positions. As she put it, she listened hard and came to different conclusions.

Brian Lehrer: Similar to Hochul today, Gillibrand was not elected to her first days in office, she was appointed by then-Governor David Paterson because a former US senator from New York, Hillary Clinton, remember her, got named secretary of state by Obama, so that was open, and the governor got to appoint somebody. He chose this Hudson Valley or Upstate Albany area and Hudson Valley moderate who did have a good NRA record, et cetera, and that was Kirsten Gillibrand who was in the House.

As I recall it, Gillibrand made a splash right away and made a statement to people on at least the social issues left that she came out really early in support of legal gay marriage, and that raised some eyebrows. It was not an issue that was associated with her one way or another, but it was like she was saying, "Hey, rest of New York State outside my district, here I am." I wonder if we can expect to see some kind of grand gesture like that from Kathy Hochul.

Casey Seiler: You've already seen her, even though she's made it clear, "I'm not the governor yet, we've only got one governor at a time," but in many of the interviews, and I think it was in her press conference as well, she prioritized making sure that landlords and tenants were protected from the scheduled sunset of many of the pandemic-related emergency procedures that have held off of widespread evictions. Also, that she wants to see money go out the door for the Excluded Workers Fund as well that the legislature approved in the last budget.

Yes, those are the types of gestures. Just to get back to Gillibrand, bear in mind that much like Hochul, Gillibrand had won a seat in Congress against a very tough incumbent in John Sweeney, and Hochul pulled off that kind of win in Western New York. Yes, you're absolutely right, our accidental governor initially at least gave us an accidental senator in the sense that Paterson was only in the position to appoint Gillibrand because, of course, Eliot Spitzer stepped down.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take your phone calls for the editor of the Albany Times Union, Casey Seiler on Cuomo going out, Kathy Hochul coming in or other related things, 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280, or you can tweet @BrianLehrer. By the way, on Upstate Downstate power, this might've been a bigger story today were it not for everything else that happened over the weekend. Did you see the new census numbers show that New York City is up to 44% of the state population? That's politically powerful among other things, are you seeing that reflected in Albany politics?

Casey Seiler: You're certainly seeing it as we prepare for redistricting, which is, of course, a direct result of the census, and it's almost a deadlock that the loss of the congressional seat that we narrowly were denied is almost certainly going to be Upstate and could conceivably set up a battle between the Central New York's current Republican representatives. Of course, one of those seats is likely to be vacated. That would make it the most likely one on the chopping block.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. Here's one more clip of Hochul on the mask mandates for kids in school which she supports.

Kathy Hochul: This is something that I believe has to occur to make sure that our teachers are safe, the administrators are safe, and above all, each child that a parent sends off to school and trust that that school is going to take care of the most precious child in their entire lives.

Brian Lehrer: How much, and that was from CNN State of the Union, how much is that up to her as opposed to local districts?

Casey Seiler: It will be a lot less up to her than it was up to Governor Cuomo up until just last month because, of course, with the end of the state of emergency, a lot of the powers that were available to Governor Cuomo will not be available to future Governor Hochul. She stated in that interview that she is going to have to work with the legislature if, in fact, the state is going to impose it as opposed to, as you know, just strongly recommending to school districts that they do it.

School districts were very chafed when the State Education Department went to the department of health and asked for clear guidance, and the department of health took a pass on that, which forced the State Education Department or obligated the State Education Department to essentially retool the CDCs latest recommendations and put those out because, of course, school districts and school boards, they should not be left to their own devices, they don't to be left to their own devices.

This is why we have state agencies that are supposed to offer advice and counsel to districts on this stuff. Of course, an open question is whether or not Howard Zucker, the current health commissioner is going to stick around very long in a Hochul administration. He, of course, has faced a barrage of criticism for many of the agency's actions during the pandemic, especially as it relates to protecting and backing up the executive chamber in, for example, the stonewalling of nursing home fatality data for so long.

Brian Lehrer: With Casey Seiler, editor of the Albany Times Union. Jim in the South Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jim, thanks for calling in.

Jim: Hi. Good morning, thank you for taking my call. I'd like to respond to the issue of whether or not the new governor needs to cater to these so-called Downstate progressives. People seem to be forgetting that during the last governance race, these so-called progressives means that Professor Teachout was completely wiped out in the state and especially in New York City. She had very little support in the city or through the state.

Let's remember that just a few weeks ago, we had a primary in which, again, these so-called progressives, who were, again, wiped out, fortunately, and more reasonable and sensible people with sensible programs did far better than these so-called progressives. I don't think the new governor really needs to cater to these people down here in New York City however loud and [unintelligible 00:14:39] they may be.

Brian Lehrer: Jim, thank you for your call. I would point out that the recent primary I think would fairly be considered to have had more of a mixed result. Certainly Eric Adams, who is not running from that wing won the mayoral primary, but Brad Lander who was running from that wing did win the comptroller primary and city council. If you look at various districts across the city, seems to have moved to the left with the sum total of the many primaries that took place there, so maybe more of a mixed result.

Certainly, though, Casey, the caller is right that if you look at the past two gubernatorial primaries, Cuomo fairly easily defeated Zephyr Teachout, who he mentioned, in one of those primaries, and of course, Cynthia Nixon in the other one. How much do you think Kathy Hochul has to be worried about Downstate progressives in terms of her intention to run for a full term next year?

Casey Seiler: I would agree with the caller that she does not need to cater to them, but they definitely need tending as an important and a growing part of the Democratic base, especially Downstate. She doesn't want to give away the store and costs moderate votes in the suburbs, but to the question of Zephyr Teachout, Zephyr Teachout running against Cuomo in 2014 is very, very different from a progressive candidate. Now, Zephyr Teachout was almost completely unknown.

She was an academic and an author when she ran in 2014, and of course, Cynthia Nixon in 2018 was very well known, but she was well-known as an actress, not necessarily as a political figure. I think it's untested as to whether or not, on a statewide level at least, whether or not a progressive candidate who is a known quantity as a politician how well they would do on a statewide basis. Letitia James ran as a progressive, ran with a progressive resume and came out on top, of course, with the governor's support, with Governor Cuomo support, that is.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, on the lieutenant governor question on which Hochul said that she will appoint somebody from New York City, CBS2 is saying sources say that State Senator Brian Benjamin, who some of our listeners remember was one of the prime candidates in the New York City comptroller, primary race just now State Senator Brian Benjamin, and also Jamal Bailey are on her lists.

Some possible candidates there that we'll find out about in a few days. Casey, we've been talking mostly about Kathy Hochul coming in, let's talk some about Andrew Cuomo going out. Another story from the weekend that many of our listeners might have missed. Probably no accident that this was announced on a Friday afternoon into the time of the week where news stories go to die when politicians want them to.

The assembly speaker, Carl Heastie announced that the assembly would drop its impeachment inquiry into Governor Cuomo. That has angered some progressives among others because they think they won't be full accountability unless there is an impeachment inquiry that's taken to conclusion and maybe even an impeachment vote and maybe even an impeachment trial to try to bar Andrew Cuomo from running for office again, which his resignation does not preclude him from doing, but an impeachment conviction would.

Then the next day, as the Times Union reports, that's where I learned it, reading it in your paper, the judiciary committee of the assembly we are told will issue its report on its Cuomo investigation to date. What are we to make of those two things taken together that the assembly is going to stop pursuing any further investigation of Cuomo, but is going to issue a report on what it found so far?

Casey Seiler: I think confusing messages would seem to be the message there from Speaker Heastie's office. Obviously, there was a lot of pushback after the announcement from the speaker and Charles Lavine, who was the chair of the Judiciary Committee. There was outrage, outrage from several of Cuomo's alleged victims as well as from lots of assembly members who said this work should continue.

The idea which was suggested by the speaker's statement that the assembly would essentially be taking the work product of the investigation and just handing it off to prosecutors, including, one imagines, in Albany for potential action, as well as probably investigators in the US Attorney's office for the Eastern District. Essentially calling it a day, left many people very frustrated.

Phil Steck, who is a member of the Judiciary Committee from the Capitol region reacted in a fairly frustrated manner. The notion is a good one that the people of New York paid for this investigation and paid millions of dollars for it, and the idea that, essentially, the dossier is the work product would just be sent off to investigators for potential action or potentially not I think is one that is going to generate a lot of criticism for Heastie until that information comes out and I think it probably will.

He said that evidence of potential impeachable actions emerged, not only from the sexual misconduct bucket but also in terms of the production of the governor's COVID memoir, American crisis, and as well that the nursing home fatalities and the stonewalling connected to that. I have a very hard time imagining that the assembly will just be able to say, "Oh, we sent it along, don't worry about it, goodbye."

Brian Lehrer: That's such an important point that the assembly investigation was largely about those other things. We have a full report from the attorney general on the sexual harassment, but not on the nursing home, not on the book, not on the Mario Cuomo Bridge. It'll be useful to the people of New York to hear at least what they found to date.

Casey Seiler: The bridge question, which is one that Brendan Lyons, who is our managing editor for investigations, first reported on back in March is the result of a multi-month investigation was one that was not even mentioned in the speaker's statement, which left a lot of people here at the Times Union scratching their heads. That was supposed to be an avenue of inquiry for the impeachment investigation, and apparently, it has gone dark.

Brian Lehrer: Hey, I want to spend our last few minutes talking about how you are portrayed and how the Times Union comes up in the attorney general's report. Listeners, if you're just joining us, my guest is the editor of the Albany Times Union, Casey Seiler. By way of background here, you've been getting some pretty good reviews from media critics like Margaret Sullivan, who does the media column, the journalism column for the Washington Post.

She wrote, "Here's what the Times Union has done over past weeks and months, broken a lot of Cuomo-related stories, maintained proper journalistic distance from sources even when there was a price to pay in terms of access, refused off the record information, served the public interest." There are others like that that are out there, so congratulations on that.

I want to ask you about some of the particular things in the AG's report that cited you by name and Times Union reporting in particular. One of the things is, did the Cuomo people leak selected items from someone's personnel file to you, one of the accusers to try to discredit her?

Casey Seiler: Yes, as noted in the report, they did leak elements of Lindsey Boylan's personnel file initially back in December when she first made her, at that point, fairly non-specific claims that she had been sexually harassed in the administration. That is in the report as well, but the exchange that was quoted or a transcript of which ran in the report, well, there were two references. I hasten to say that this all goes back to the good reporting of Brendan Lyons who I was just talking about who's our capital bureau chief.

I am essentially portrayed in the report as the person who would get the angry calls after Brendan made completely righteous and proper journalistic inquiries. There was the transcript of our March discussion, which was supposed to be a background discussion with Melissa DeRosa, the governor's secretary, and several other top aides, including an executive chamber council. Brendan and other reporters were working on a story about workplace culture within the administration.

This background discussion was meant to give them a chance to answer in an on-the-record fashion, albeit on background, some of those questions. In the middle of that discussion, Melissa DeRosa attempted or said she wanted to send something to Brendan but that it would stay off the record until they had mutually agreed on it, or Melissa said it would be okay. At which point, Brendan and I had just come to the conclusion that we didn't want to take anything like that off the record in this discussion, that we wanted this to be on background, which meant that we could use it.

At that point, I just said, "No, don't give us anything off the record." We'll continue to have off-the-record discussions, but in the context of that exchange with those people, I did not want to go off the record. You're right, the praise for the Times Union, for Brendan, for myself has been very generous. What I tell people is quite literally, I owe it all to the Cuomo administration because, unbeknownst to us, they were recording that call and then ended up, I can only assume, having to hand it off, the recording to the attorney general's office pursuant to subpoena.

Brian Lehrer: Did they then give you the Lindsey Boylan personnel record items on the record and did you publish them?

Casey Seiler: No, they never sent it. No, whatever it was, they did not send it. Rich Azzopardi, the governor's spokesman, I think told the New York Times that it was something that would have provided context, but he did not identify what that material was.

Brian Lehrer: That's such an interesting journalistic decision that here you're being offered something obviously from one side, the governor's side who has an interest in you seeing it or seeing it out of context or seeing it a certain way, but you decided you didn't even want to see it. That's an interesting decision for a journalist.

Casey Seiler: Yes, and as I said, I'm not saying that going forward forevermore, I wouldn't accept seeing something under those conditions, but bear in mind that the administration had already been called out and faced great criticism, and a number of media outlets had faced great criticism for allowing the administration in a veiled fashion to release this material in an attempt to undercut the credibility of, at that point, an alleged victim of sexual harassment. Brenda and I just felt very uncomfortable about it and that's why it was easy in that context with those people, once again, to say no.

Brian Lehrer: Let me read a few of the lines from the report that you are referring to having to do with your exchange with them, I guess, in March. This is pertaining to the sexual harassment claims of the state trooper who the general public did not know about until the attorney general's report.

The attorney general writes, "During her testimony, Ms. DeRosa, the governor's aide, recall the Times Union's inquiry about trooper number one. She testified that her view is that the inquiry itself was sexist leading to a heated exchange between Ms. DeRosa and Casey Seiler, the editor of the Times Union. Ms. DeRosa testified that she yelled at him saying, 'You guys are trying to reduce her hiring to being about looks, that's what men do.' Ms. DeRosa testified that the governor overheard her getting animated in her office during her conversation with you. Ms. DeRosa testified that after she explained the situation to the governor, the governor called Mr. Seiler," you, "Himself. Ms. DeRosa stated that the governor told Mr. Seiler not to get mad at Ms. DeRosa for being animated as this is one of the topics that sends Ms. DeRosa off a cliff. Ms. DeRosa testified that the Times Union ultimately decided not to ride on the subject."

Again, you had information about the state trooper which the public only learned about two weeks ago, why did you decide not to write that story after that exchange with DeRosa and The governor?

Casey Seiler: I would just point out that was back in December, I believe it was in mid-December as opposed to the March discussion which was also with DeRosa.

Brian Lehrer: Got it.

Kathy Hochul: The reason we did not go with that story is because both the state police and the executive chamber lied to us. They lied to us on two points. They said that the governor had not at all been involved in this trooper's hiring for the governors protective detail, and they lied to us about whether or not the trooper had been allowed on the detail despite the fact that she did not have the necessary, the required years of service that are required to get on the detail.

With those two falsehoods on the record from the executive chamber and from the state police, which had apparently just parroted what the executive chamber had put out, they were backing up each other's stories in effect, we did not feel confident going ahead with that story. In retrospect, we, of course, had no idea at that point that this trooper had been a victim of sexual harassment by the governor as emerged in the report, all we had was that there were these questions about her hiring. With those two flat denials, which, once again, were lies, we did not feel confident that we had enough to go ahead with the story.

Brian Lehrer: I know you've got to go in a minute. Do you conclude today that her hiring outside of the usual seniority pecking order was largely about that the governor liked her looks?

Casey Seiler: It is very hard to come to any other conclusion, Brian, it really is. The governor's attorney said that the governor appreciated, upon meeting her at this event in the city, that he appreciated her I think the way she met his eye contact or something like that. It is very hard to come to any other conclusion. I think it was the governor's people said at one point, oh, there were two female troopers there, she was the only one who was hired onto the protective details, so you can draw your own conclusions from that.

Brian Lehrer: Casey Seiler, editor of the Albany Times Union. Again, congratulations on your reporting over these last six months, eight months. Not that the TU doesn't always do a good job, but you were particularly on display. A little more attention from the national media for the original reporting that you were doing. As we continue in an intense time for New York State with the transition now underway and with the election of the next governor next year, as well as it's an election year for the entire state legislature, let's keep in touch.

Casey Seiler: Sounds good. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

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