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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Coming out of our last conversation, let's stay in the workforce but with the lens tightly focused on one sector. By the time the Aman Hotel & Residences on Fifth Avenue is completed, it will have broken records in sales prices about $10,000 per square foot, we are told. It's already received a $180 million offer for one penthouse which would make it one of the most expensive apartments in New York City.

There's another price, a shockingly small price developers had to pay for this property. Earlier this year, a construction worker cleaning a stairwell on the 17th floor fell through an unprotected garbage chute onto the floor below. It's been reported he passed away from his injuries. The developer was charged to fine only $12,500 for their role in this loss of life.

Maurizio Guerrero, investigative journalist, and Isaac Rauch, immigration reporting fellow for the news organization called Documented have investigated that construction workers death and looked at other deaths at construction sites where the victims are usually Latino, often undocumented, often nonunion, and how the real estate industry's power too often means no one is held accountable. Maurizio Guerrero's latest investigation for documentedny.com is titled The Secret Price of a Life and he joins me now. Maurizio, thank you so much for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Maurizio Guerrero: Thank you so much for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: You're right about how the death which occurred on February 15th this year has gone entirely unreported until now. Can you introduce us to the deceased?

Maurizio Guerrero: Yes, of course. Just to clarify, OSHA imposed additional fines.

Brian Lehrer: Let me just clarify further for people who don't know that acronym, OSHA, O-S-H-A, is the United States Occupational Safety and Health Administration. Go ahead.

Maurizio Guerrero: Exactly, yes. The agency in charge of the safety regulations in the workplace, they imposed an additional fine to the contractors in charge of the Crown Building and the Aman Residences and Hotel for the death of this worker. That's for the amount of a little bit more than $28,000. To be sure, none of that money, either the $12,500 imposed by the Department of Buildings as a penalty fee nor the OSHA fines have been paid so far because usually, companies appeal and they contest this fine. Nothing has been paid so far.

We don't know much about this worker and that's the crux of the issue, I think, with construction workers.

There's not even a registry in New York State or New York City, a consolidated tally of the construction workers that die at the workplace. The most recent consolidated tally is from 2019 and that comes from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. That tally was published just last March referring to 2019 deaths. That's just a raw number and that number is 60. 60 people died in construction sites in New York State and the Department of building, for example, just recorded the 12 deaths in that year, and OSHA, the federal agency, just 8.

That means that we don't know anything whatsoever about what happened to these workers, what companies they were working for, what were the circumstances of their deaths, if the companies were fined, were prosecuted. Anything. We don't know much about these workers. The other workers that were part of the registries of OSHA, or the Department of

Buildings in New York, we know just very little information. The information is very basic details of what happened, the circumstances of the accident as I described in my report and nothing more. We don't know the name of the worker, we don't know of the sex, the age, the nationality, or the immigration status.

It's very hard for these people when no one knows what happened. For these people meaning especially undocumented workers that are the vast majority of the people that died in construction sites in New York according to advocates who are following this issue closely. There's very little leverage for them as the public opinion doesn't know anything about what happened. Very little direct for them to get any measure of justice, any accountability because when something like this happens, an insurance company, insurance of the company triggers immediately so they pay the family.

After that, a worker can claim civil compensation, but they need an attorney, they need public support, the family probably needs money just to get by so we wouldn't know anything about what happened in this incident. The companies being so powerful can very well intimidate these workers, as has happened often according to advocates. Intimidate these working into not saying anything and not seeking to a fair compensation or a just compensation after a fatality. The other issue I will explain.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. That is quite a shocking foundation for the story, the lack of transparency. It's hard to find out, it sounds like what you're saying, even for you, as a professional investigative journalist, what happened to a worker who died on the job, and what different agencies found was the responsibility of the developer or the contractor or whoever. That is a window into this field in general, I think I hear you.

We did a segment on the show back in 2017 based on another investigative report at that time about deaths and accidents generally in the construction sector. It was found that there was a significant link to the union status of workers, there were unionized construction sites and nonunionized construction sites. Guess where the accidents tend to be more rampant. Also, to the immigration status of the workers involved, did you find those same links?

Maurizio Guerrero: Yes, exactly those same links. If you have a union, a representative would go to check that a construction site is following the safety regulations, both federal and local. If you don't, there's no one advocating for you for your rights. What some civil organizations and grassroots organizations are going to try to change a little bit this imbalance in the power dynamic is, as they call it, to empower workers. That means training undocumented workers about their rights, about what safety measures they have to take if they either work in a construction site, especially if they work at some altitude, for example, on scaffolds that are extremely dangerous.

At least they could know their rights and at least they could say to an employer, "What you're asking me to do, it's just illegal. I need such and such protection." In that way, they're trying to shift a little bit the dynamic. At the end of the day, I talked with several undocumented workers, and all of them told me that at some point, they felt pressured to perform tasks that they thought they were very dangerous, that they thought they were putting their lives at risk, but they didn't have any option but to perform them because they felt that they will be fired, or they will be paying some sort of retribution.

We're talking about this very vulnerable workforce that sometimes do not even speak the language so they're at the mercy of the employers. What happens is that if there's no transparency, as is the case of the construction industry in New York, there's very little help from grassroots organization or public opinion, in general, to help these workers get a better treatment, a fair treatment, and not risk their lives every day.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we have a few minutes for you to help us report this story if you can help Maurizio Guerrero from Documented NYC. Sorry, let me get it right so people can go to the right web address, documentedny.com. His story is called The secret Price of a Life. Help him help us report this story. I'm wondering if some of you listening right now work in the construction industry, have you worked on a dangerous job site? Was your union a part of improving conditions for you if you're in a union?

If you're not part of a union, what's that been like? Or anything related to the immigration status of yourself or anyone you've worked with on a construction site with respect to safety and this story. 646-435-7280. 646-435-7280 or tweet @BrianLehrer. Would you repeat Maurizio that number 60 that you stated before for a number of construction deaths in New York? Over what period of time?

Maurizio Guerrero: That was just one year, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Wow.

Maurizio Guerrero: 60 in New York state in 2019, that's way higher than, for example, the meatpacking industry that it's well known to be an extremely dangerous profession. For example, to follow with that comparison, we know that some meatpacking companies are responsible for a large number of deaths. A consumer can have the necessary information to say, "I won't consume meat in general because of the treatment of workers," or specifically about a company. In the case of construction sites in New York, we don't know anything about what company is responsible for the fatalities, for injuries, for wage fix.

As well, there's no process, for example, for the government to punish these companies because they don't blacklist them, for example. These companies, even though they violate safety regulations or have a lot of injuries in the workplace, they still can receive subsidies from the government, they still can receive contracts from the government, and they're not penalized in any way, even if they're egregious safety violators. That's the problem as well.

Brian Lehrer: Wow. As an example of what you're talking about, this maze of who's accountable, who's not accountable when these tragedies do occur, on the story that you reported the case of this individual death in a construction accident in February, the Aman Hotel & Residences, which is being built and where this took place is owned by OKO or OKO Group, which partnered with SHVO. They are owned by, your report, a Russian billionaire and an Israeli billionaire respectively, those two companies.

You write, "Neither of these developments has been linked to the construction worker's death on February 15th." Instead, the contractor, Gilbane Building Company, was on the hook. I don't know what to make of that. I can't sit here and point a finger and say it was really the developer, not the contractor or anything like that. What do you know about Gilbane Building Company or what's your take on who should be held responsible in deaths like these?

Maurizio Guerrero: At the end what advocates are saying is that the owner of the property should be fully accountable because, for example, if you need to repair your home or your property, if something happens there, ultimately you have to be held responsible. This is important in construction sites because it's the only way. If you are able to link a number of fatalities to a real estate developer, that real estate developer will feel pressured to hire more responsible contractors, more responsible subcontractors. They would be like a chain of pressure from the top because they don't want to be linked in the public opinion to fatalities or to safety violations.

I think it's important to hold these people accountable because what has happened is that there has been two cases of successful criminal convictions for construction worker deaths in Manhattan history, just two. In both cases, the people that were sent to jail were mid-level managers, Latinos, immigrants as well. The companies they were imposed a fine that it is still the maximum penalty, which is $10,000. At the end, it could be absorbed as a business cost. It could be easily absorbed by the companies. At the end, the real estate developer and the property owner is not paying any price whatsoever so they don't feel pressured to hire responsible contractors or subcontractors.

There's a bill now in the Senate that is trying to change at least the amount of the penalties that are imposed to companies that are found criminally liable for a construction worker's death. That amount would be raised to $500,000. It's still in the Senate, it's still being discussed, but at least a constructor would be, I guess, more careful if they know that they could be paying $500,000 instead of $10,000 as it is the case now.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Here's Michael in Brooklyn. Michael, you're on WNYC. Hi, there. Michael, do we have you? Oh, we don't have you. Let me try Roger in Tamworth, New Hampshire, a former union building trades worker he says. Roger, you're on WNYC. Hello from New York.

Roger: Thanks, Brian. I was listening to this program and I just want to point out that there are enormous differences between a union and a non-union worksite in New York city in any one of the boroughs. The differences are that any union site has a site safety office, weekly safety meetings. Everybody can't get through the door without OSHA training at the maximum level, even higher than the state. It's New York City anyway. Non-union jobs are often filthy without adequate bathrooms. Union jobs it's a high priority to cleanliness and sanitation, and they're dedicated laborers that take care of all that kind of thing.

The differences are immense and non-union jobs are scary. They're poorly lit often. Immigrants from every country from the world, it's like Melville's whaling ship. Seems like there's no one in charge. People urinate in bottles which they then throw in dumpsters. They're often aren't working elevators or overcrowded ones. Often, people have to climb many floors with tools. It's chaos.

Brian Lehrer: Roger, [crosstalk].

Roger: They got to have organized labor or disorganized labor.

Brian Lehrer: Organized labor or disorganized labor, that goes in our slogans of the day file along with what Catherine Rampell said on a previous segment, more jabs equals more jobs about COVID vaccines and the economy. Disorganized labor or organized labor. David in Manhattan, who says he's an OSHA instructor, an instructor for the federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration. David, thank you so much for calling in. Hi.

David: Hi, Brian. How are you doing?

Brian Lehrer: Doing right. What's you got for us.

David: I did want to just encourage the journalist that I think it's great that we're talking about this subject. Again, I do train construction workers in New York City and to the previous caller's point, it's a newer requirement by New York City by the Department of Buildings, construction workers in New York City get additional training. This OSHA 30-hour construction training. They initially wanted the OSHA 10-hour and then the DOB bumped it up to 30 hours of contact training, and they want an additional 10. I think it's now 40 hours of training for all construction workers.

Part of this is so that construction workers are better educated about the hazards that they're going to face on the construction sites. As the previous caller said, this is not a requirement all over the country or in other states and municipalities, it's incredibly important training. A big part of the training is talking about the workers' rights. Absolutely this is an almost impossible situations at times when an employer is putting a construction worker into a dangerous situation and they are pressuring them to do the job and get it done quickly. There's a very, very difficult really judgment call that they have to make at times, but they need to call OSHA. That's one of the things that they need to do.

As you've been talking a little bit about union shop and non-union shop, I would add the dynamic, a small mom and pop construction company, or a large construction company. Skanska, Turner. I've actually worked with Gilbane, they're pretty good. Terrible things do happen on the construction site quite a bit. Skanska and Turner, they are much more serious about safety because they want all of their workers, all of their staffs to get home safely to their families. The smaller mom and pops, themselves are under immense pressure as well.

I I like to talk about, this is New York City, we build vertically up into the sky. This isn't the suburbs. It is inherently dangerous. It is inherently more difficult to complete construction in New York City. I agree with a lot of what your guest is talking about, immigration status, class status, this goes into it. The OSHA 30, which is required, that does help. Does it make it perfect? Absolutely not, but additional education about the hazards they're dealing with is really key and crucial.

Brian Lehrer: David, let me follow up and Maurizio, you can follow up if you want as obviously the journalist on this story. I'm curious, and I think we hear the weather forecast or the current weather conditions through the audio on your phone line, I can hear your windshield wipers in the background. [chuckles]

David: Sorry about that

Brian Lehrer: Be safe out there speaking of safety. Even with this training that you're talking about, and the dangers that you're talking about in high-rise construction, if the stat is accurate, 60 construction deaths in New York in one year, 2019 last year before the pandemic slowed things down, that's not acceptable. Can't that be reduced closer to zero?

David: Yes. I don't know if there's a journalist or someone previously mentioned, I think the journalist did. The OSHA fines are very minimus. Again, they can always appeal them. I've been a safety professional for 20 years. OSHA fines are minimUs and they can be easily fought. $20,000, that sounds like a lot from OSHA actually, because they're really slapped on the wrist. They have poor enforcement capability. I agree that there needs to be more done to that. Unfortunately, capability of OSHA may be the DOB as well.

Brian Lehrer: [crosstalk] Department of Buildings.

David: 60 deaths unacceptable, I agree. Right, the state Department of Buildings.

Brian Lehrer: Maurizio, anything for David before we move on?

Maurizio Guerrero: Something that Roger mentioned about nonunion and union worksites, it's an irony that we're talking about a building on Fifth Avenue that is going to sell one of the most expensive penthouses in the history of New York City and they were using nonunion labor. It was a company Gilbane, that it's founded by millionaires, run by millionaires. This is what we see every day, the very luxurious real estate developers in New York using this kind of labor risking their lives every day.

Brian Lehrer: David, thank you very much for your call. We really appreciate your perspective on this. Just a few minutes left with Maurizio Guerrero, investigative journalist with documentedny.com, whose new article is called The Secret Price of a Life. Let me get one more phone call in here. Gosh, we're running out of time and there's so many good-looking callers on the line. Let's just see about Vinny in West New York, who says he's a land surveyor in New York City and actually wants to respond to the last caller. Vinny, you're on WNYC. Hi, there.

Vinny: Hi, Brian. It's good to talk to you. I've never done this before. I just wanted to point out that those OSHA 30 cards, they're meaningless. As a surveyor, I'm not married to one site, I visit multiple sites throughout the city and we still have demands, and they just want stuff done. Sitting a worker in front of a computer for 30 hours doesn't really make them safer. I've done tasks where it's very unsafe, but that I need to do for my job. I've stared at general managers straight in the face on the field and no one told me to stop what I was doing. They're happy to see that the work is getting done regardless of how unsafe it is.

Brian Lehrer: Vinny, thank you very much. To wrap this up, Maurizio, what can be done? I know that one aspect of your story that we didn't really get into is the power aspect in the political sector. You write about the eternal power of the real estate industry, obviously, for example, over $1,000,000 went from the real estate industry into former Governor Cuomo's last reelection campaign so what can be done?

Maurizio Guerrero: There are a number of things. First of, the number of inspections from OSHA and the Department of Buildings are very low, they should be increased. The number of criminal prosecutions for construction workers' deaths are really low. As I mentioned, just two in Manhattan and a handful of them in Brooklyn. Fines are very low, both for safety violations, and if the company Is criminally liable so they should be raised as well.

There should be penalties for the companies that are egregious violators, and repeating offenders from the government in the way of the government not giving them contracts and subsidies. At the end of the day, as well to protect undocumented workers, the only real way to protect them is to open a pathway to citizenship for all these millions of people that are doing this extremely dangerous work and covering essential jobs in the city. That will be the ultimate solution for these workers.

Brian Lehrer: Maurizio Guerrero's investigative report on documentedny.com is titled The Secret Price of a Life. Thank you so much for sharing it with us.

Maurizio Guerrero: Thank you, Brian.

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