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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. A 2017 study from the Civil Rights Project at UCLA ranked New Jersey the sixth most segregated state for Black students and seventh for Latino students in the nation. A ruling in a lawsuit filed in 2018 over that lack of diversity in the state's public schools is due soon. That's prompted over 12 newsrooms covering New Jersey to collaborate and publish stories this week on how we got here and what the ruling could mean for students going forward. WNYC and Gothamist are among the news organizations participating.

To open our conversation about this, we're joined now by John Mooney, the founding editor of NJ Spotlight News, where this coverage is kicking off, and by Javier Robles, the new president of the Latino Action Network of New Jersey, who along with the NAACP and other organizations filed the suit. John Mooney, welcome back. Javier Robles, welcome to WNYC.

John Mooney: Hi, Brian. Nice to be back.

Javier Robles: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Javier, statistics cited in the lawsuit include that almost 25% of Black students attend schools that are 99% non-white, and 67% of Black students attend a school that is at least 75% non-white. For Latino students, the numbers are slightly lower with 62% of students attending schools that are at least 75% non-white. That's a lot of numbers to throw at people, but what do those statistics add up to, in your view?

Javier Robles: I guess in the view of the Latino Action Network and a lot of our colleagues who are on this lawsuit, it really means that New Jersey schools are still segregated and still offering students that are in those segregated districts educational experience that is not the same offered to other students in non-segregated districts.

Brian Lehrer: John Mooney, Spotlight has a story I see with several charts and interactive maps so people can see the data overall and by school. How can people use the map?

John Mooney: There's a couple of ways. We have a lot of data there and it's hard to wrap your head around it, but what is available is in each of the data sets that we have, you're able to type in your district or your individual school and see how it's changed over the course of the last 20 years. We also have statewide maps, and we will be coming out with further maps that look at some of the issues of performance and graduation rates across these different schools. It's a great way of engaging the audience and letting them see their own communities.

Brian Lehrer: That story also points out that compared to 20 years ago, the picture has improved in some respects and that there are fewer schools that are predominantly white or Black.

John Mooney: Yes, overall, the state has certainly gotten a lot more diverse, and so you have more districts where there is at least some diversity than there was 20 years ago. What hasn't happened is, those schools that are predominantly Black or Hispanic, those have actually increased. You can see it through the central section of the state from Newark down through Camden. That is where really the most significant segregation is taking place, and certainly, a lot of argument that those kids are suffering for that and not having a diverse education as they're entitled to under both New Jersey's constitution, but of course, also through some court precedents and on the national level.

Brian Lehrer: Javier, I wonder how you see that progress or lack of progress over time at the Latino Action Network of New Jersey. Are there some communities where there's less housing segregation than there was 20 years ago, therefore, there's a little more school integration while other communities are going in a different direction? I don't know if that's what's happening. How do you see whatever changes this 20-year arc represents?

Javier Robles: I think what we're seeing overall is like John Mooney said, there is some progress in certain districts, but overall, the picture really hasn't changed much for Latinos and Black students in the state. This is really because of concentrated poverty, which is the thing that a lot of people don't talk about when we talk about schools. Poverty and where you go to school really go hand in hand. Historically, this has happened because of things like redlining, which were fully supported by the federal and state government at one point but are still with us in terms of where our students go to school.

If you were fortunate enough to live in a white district 50 years ago, if you look at those districts today, those students are going to the schools that we're talking about, that are mainly white schools or have the resources to make sure that those students that graduate in those schools end up in college or end up in a place where they're going to make enough money to have a living or make enough money to live in New Jersey where the cost of living is extensively high compared to other states.

Brian Lehrer: New Jersey listeners, anybody out there right now who's following this lawsuit or wants to report on your own district making changes to "de facto" desegregate by race and income, anyone from any of the school districts? Here we are doing this in July, so school's out for summer. Teachers, administrators, you can call in. Anyone else involved with this or just paying attention and want to report on your own school or school district, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 if you want to call in, or you can also text a comment or a question to that number if you can't get through on the phone.

212-433-9692 for Javier Robles from the Latino Action Network of New Jersey and John Mooney from NJ Spotlight. Javier, let me stay with you. Some of the possible solutions that I've seen include, consolidating districts across income and racial divides or use magnet schools to greater effect. Actually, John, let me ask you first because some of your reporting looked at cities where each of those were tried. Maybe you can tell us about the experience of, for example, Morris Township and Morristown. Also, you looked out of state at Hartford, Connecticut, I see. Maybe report on that example.

John Mooney: As you mentioned there are a few paths to go by to try to address this. In Morristown, New Jersey, there was a lawsuit dating back into the '60s and early '70s that led to the consolidation of Morris Township schools with Morristown High School, as well as to a degree, Morris Plains Schools, a smaller district. That is, I think proven to be, at least by the reports that I've heard, proven to be pretty successful. There's lots of questions. As one of the researchers pointed out, it's certainly not [unintelligible 00:07:51] but there's been a lot of-- One thing that didn't happen was any major white flight, which was a concern at the time.

There's still a lot of work to do in terms of integrating within the school and providing opportunities to kids at different levels, and I think that that is something that's still a work in progress to be sure. The other example is Hartford, Connecticut, where also a lawsuit that goes back almost as far as that of Sheff v. O'Neill recently was settled outright, but that led to more than 40 magnet schools being created, not just in Hartford, but in serving 20 suburban communities and providing a choice for families to cross district lines, both going out of Hartford and coming into Hartford as well.

That's been also deemed so far successful. That's newer. We're in a case where there's 10,000 or more kids who are doing that, but again, there's some opportunity, our suburban schools opening up their own doors as much as they could. That is one researcher I spoke to on that said that that hasn't necessarily happened as much as she had wanted. Again, these are all incremental steps.

I think a general sense was a good state-wide plan includes a bunch of options. There isn't necessarily just one way to do it. A general consensus I ran into is a bunch of options that provided as a voluntary step and not being mandated on districts or families because that is where you really start seeing the pushback as we've seen in our own district.

Brian Lehrer: It sounds like since the housing is segregated that these plans involve busing students from one district to another, right, or at least from one neighborhood or one town to another.

John Mooney: Yes. Certainly, the transportation is an issue for sure, but breaking down some of the district lines, not compelling districts kids to necessarily have to go within those communities that are segregated by housing by providing an opportunity to go elsewhere. It's expensive. There's a lot of issues certainly with magnet schools. You can't just flip a switch on that. It's programs. It's equipment. As you mentioned, it's transportation. These all do cost money.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Kamal in Newark, you're on WNYC. Hi, Kamal.

Kamal: Hi, Brian. How are you? Hi, John. John, we've actually interacted before through my role with New Jersey Education Consortium, but I wanted to come and speak from a personal experience. I grew up in Easton. I went to Easton public schools, K through 5 then I also went to school in Montclair. I just wanted to say that the segregation today is, like one of your guests said is, he framed it in poverty, but it's economics. Whether it's a district on the low end of the economic scale or on the high end, say somewhere like Middlebury, you're going to see a student population that reflects the community.

I think that it's much more important that the districts and administrators are focused on reforming internally because you can't dictate where people decide to live. When you see the little bits of change, I think it's reflective of people moving from cities like Newark to places like Franklin. Then within the immigrant community and various ethnic groups, they tend to live in clusters, which results in a higher population in those respective districts. I think we have to look at the role of school choice in this discussion and what districts can do on a local level to reform.

Because, like I said, it's pretty tough to dictate where people live, and if the solution is to integrate schools who's busing kids around, that actually ends up-- Well, I'll just add, I'm not sure that's the best use of public funds.

Brian Lehrer: What would your proposed solution be, Kamal, with your experience in this area?

Kamal: My proposed solution is to focus on improving the local school district. For example, I went to school in Montclair, and the schools-- Take, for example, the middle schools in Montclair, the population, I'd say Glenfield is much different than the population of Mt. Hebron Middle School, which is in Upper Montclair. Again, it's largely reflective of the [unintelligible 00:13:01] the differences in those sections of town. I think that there's work to be done internally. In terms of that, I think it has to be an all-hands-on-deck approach.

You're looking at a place like Newark, and the changes that are coming about there, a lot of that are a result of efforts around school choice and the work that some of the charter schools have done. I just think that what we need in New Jersey is to focus on how we get quality education in all areas of the state. The last thing we need to do is be busing kids around or vouchers or whatever things that have been spoken about in the past that ultimately are taking money out of the classroom.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. Kamal, thank you very much. Javier, let me turn to you on that because I think we're hearing from Kamal what sometimes parents of color say, which is, "I don't need my kids to go to school with white kids. I need my neighborhood school, all neighborhood schools, to be of equal quality with equal resources." What's your opinion about that, the way he just stated it, and to Kamal?

Javier Robles: In a perfect world, that would be great. We don't live in a perfect world. Poor people, immigrants, and other people who are living in these segregated communities don't have the money or the option to stop working, move to a district that has better teachers, not that there's better teachers, but has better resources. The reality is that people bus people all the time. Rich people bus their children to private schools. They bus their children to better schools. No one said, "Well, why is that rich person busing their child to a school outside a district that's segregated or outside a district that's poor?"

The other reality is that school districts in New Jersey have had since the Brown v. Board of Education ruling to become better schools for all children, and they haven't. Also, when we think about segregation of our schools by color, isn't that exactly what Brown v. Board of Education was about? Making sure that our students go to integrated schools? Studies have shown that students that go to diverse schools, especially students of color, Latino and Black, do better in terms of the numbers of graduating going to college, being students who have better jobs. Integration has a positive net effect for Latinos and Black while not harming white students. Diversity is a good thing [crosstalk].

Brian Lehrer: John, let's get back to the news hook. What is the lawsuit actually asking for?

John Mooney: The lawsuit is really, as somebody said, the beginning of the race, not the end of it. It's also five years old at this point, but it is asking, basically, for the question of liability, who's responsible? It is putting it on the state that it is responsible. The state public school system is part of the state constitution that schools be integrated and/or at least not segregated. It is asking for that first, who's responsible, and in that, asking that party be required to come up with a plan to address it. It does not dictate or demand any specific remedy at this point.

That would be the next step, and that's a big question mark. Really, the first step is to put the onus on where it should be, at least according to the plaintiffs, and then there will be really the hard work in coming up with a plan and a remedy. That will be likely as contentious as even just getting to this point. We have a ways to go. New Jersey has a long history of school equity lawsuits that have spanned decades, and I'm guessing that this will as well. I did want to add one--

Brian Lehrer: Sophia-- Go ahead, John.

John Mooney: I wanted to add one quick point on that is, New Jersey in its Abbott v. Burke school equity case, which is now 40, 50 years old, really tried to get at the quality of schools. It was not about race. Actually, race was specifically not in the complaints that started back in the '70s. There has been a lot of money spent on improving urban schools in at least 30 districts where many of them are dealing with these issues of segregation. That has been a mixed record but certainly, a lot of gains. Some as big as any in the country, but certainly, there's a lot of questions and uncertainty about whether that has really lifted up all kids as it was intended to.

Brian Lehrer: Sophia in Leonia, you're on WNYC. Hi, Sophia.

Sophia: Hi. I guess regarding remedy, I was wondering how if the lawsuit ended up being successful and schools have to desegregate further, how would that impact homeowners' property taxes, given that a good chunk of our property taxes do go towards our local school district? It's not just the value of the home, but a lot of homeowners are willing to pay those taxes because of their local school district. I guess I'm wondering what the impact would be there and [unintelligible 00:18:45].

Brian Lehrer: Right, it's a great question. We know in New Jersey, everything comes back to property taxes, ha ha ha, but also, this is such a driver, John, of inequality in education around the country. I have said on this show that if I could propose one constitutional amendment, it might be that schools cannot be funded by property taxes because if you live in a higher-income neighborhood, your property is worth more, therefore there's more tax money that can go into the schools, and then we have unequal education.

I know there are laws where the state is supposed to try to even that out to some degree, but how would property taxes be affected presumably by the integration plan that this lawsuit at least implies?

John Mooney: Well, earlier, we talked a little bit about the cost of integration, the financial cost of integration and desegregation, and certainly, there is more cost, and as with more costs, whether it's on property taxes or state aid or the like, it has to be borne somewhere. I would argue, again, I think for a program to work, it's going to have to be a voluntary one, and that's what the folks I spoke with for this project have said. I think that it will not be an issue where a district is being forced to send their kids elsewhere or forced to take in kids. It's one that families in the district itself have opted into.

Morristown, I think one of the reasons that it's been somewhat successful is it did have that buy-in, but that took a lot of work. Integrated schools and diverse schools, I think, can be a real attraction for folks. I live in Montclair as well, and I think that that has been one of its calling cards and in a lot of ways, certainly--

Brian Lehrer: Kind of intentionally integrated community to some degree, Montclair [unintelligible 00:20:52].

John Mooney: Yes, exactly. I think all of these issues are complicated, and certainly, no doubt, it's going to shake up the system. Maybe that instability in some ways is going to be worrisome for some communities, but I also think, there's certainly-- I think this project and others have shown that it's something that needs to be addressed.

Brian Lehrer: Let me sneak one more caller in here quickly, and then Javier, we'll get the last word from you to close out this segment. It's Benjamin in Merrick calling in, and no, you're right, listeners, Merrick is not in New Jersey, it is on Long Island, South Shore. Benjamin is hearing a little of his own school experience in this conversation, I think. Hi, Benjamin, you're on WNYC.

Benjamin: Hey. Yes, I'm from Long Island, I just graduated high school. I think what you're talking about in New Jersey is very prevalent where I'm from. It's super interesting to hear that this isn't just a unique experience, so part of New York that I'm from. I'm just curious, how does this decision and this issue in Jersey, how does that potentially change things where I'm from and really, I guess, across the country, because growing up, my school was probably 96%, 97% white? My neighborhood is similar. I'm just interested to hear how might things change. I'm curious.

Brian Lehrer: What a great question. Benjamin, thank you. Please keep calling us. Javier, last thought, are there national implications to this lawsuit if it succeeds in New Jersey?

Javier Robles: Absolutely. Your last caller made an excellent point, we always view segregation as something that happens in the South or red states, when in fact, the Northeast, when it comes to school, is the most segregated section of the country. A lot of people don't know that, and it's been that way for a long time. I think, nationally, if we succeed in this lawsuit, people in other states are going to see and look at their schools and see what's happening there and maybe file their own suits.

Hopefully, that's the end of that because if it gets to the Supreme Court for whatever reason, then who knows? We have a Supreme Court that is not necessarily so far friendly to people of color or our issues.

Brian Lehrer: Quick, do some desegregation before the Supreme Court gets a crack at it.

Javier Robles: Exactly.

Brian Lehrer: All right, we have to leave it there with Javier Robles, the new president of Latino Action Network of New Jersey and a professor at Rutgers in the Department of Kinesiology and Health, and John Mooney, founding editor of NJ Spotlight News, one of the partners in this collaboration across 12 newsrooms covering New Jersey, and WNYC Gothamist reporter, Karen Yi, because we're in this too. We'll be reporting on the links between affordable housing and school segregation as part of the collaboration, so look for that from us in a few days. John and Javier, thank you both so much.

Javier Robles: Thank you.

John Mooney: Thank you, Brian.

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