[music]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Mayor Adams coming up later this hour. First Governor Phil Murphy is coming for your plastic bags. That's right. On May 4th, a ban on most single-use plastic bags and food containers will go into effect in New Jersey, for businesses and restaurants. When you go to Wegmans or Wawa or any other grocery convenience store, you'll have to bring your own bag to carry out your items. When you're getting takeout, your containers might be a little more biodegradable, since plastic can take hundreds of years to degrade.

To be clear, you'll still be able to buy plastic garbage bags, and no, you won't have to carry out hot food to go with your bare hands, but there are a few caveats. We'll get into them now with Scott Fallon, staff writer covering the environment for The Record and NorthJersey.com. We'll also talk about what New Jersey can learn from New York, which is a few steps more down the road on this. Scott, welcome to WNYC today. Thanks for coming on.

Scott Fallon: Good to be back, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Is it true as I've read that this is the most restrictive ban on plastic bags in the country so far, one that goes even further than New York's or other states?

Scott Fallon: Yes, it is. It really covers a whole swath of issues regarding everyday plastic products that we use, but it also unlike New York City, bans paper bags from supermarkets and big-box stores like Target or Walmart that have a large grocery section, unlike New York City, which at least still charges 5 cents if you want to get a plastic bag at the takeout line.

Brian Lehrer: What's the rationale for banning the paper bags according to the Governor?

Scott Fallon: Well, it actually didn't come from the governor and it didn't come from environmental groups, actually. First off, this bill took years to craft and the environmental groups were fine with a fine on or a little charge for the paper bags. The ban on paper bags actually came from the supermarket industry. Paper bags cost about three to four times more than a plastic bag. They weigh much more, they take up more space.

If the supermarkets were going to agree to a plastic bag ban, they also didn't want to have the expense of giving out paper bags anymore, and that's why paper bags are banned only in supermarkets, only in big-box stores with grocery store sections. You can get it at any other retail store, you can get them at restaurants, you can get them at a boutique, but it was a supermarket lobby that really pushed for the ban on paper bags.

Brian Lehrer: Wait, if you can't get plastic bags at a supermarket and you can't get paper bags if you don't bring your own, what did they give you?

Scott Fallon: You will probably have to either have big hands, pockets, or you're going to have to buy one of those plastic woven tote bags with the stitched handles that cost about $1-$2 or buy a little bit more expensive canvas bags that some of them sell at the checkout lines, too.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, any advice for New Jersey, from New Yorkers who've adjusted to this as New Jerseyans get ready to do so? Maybe you're a business owner, maybe you're just a shopper. Anything for New Jersey listeners from the New York side where there's a little more experience, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer or if you're in Jersey, you can ask Scott Fallon from The Record and NorthJersey.com a question. You write, ''The new law signed by Governor Phil Murphy almost 18 months ago covers a lot of ground and is not exactly straightforward.'' There are some carve-outs that you're referring to there, right?

Scott Fallon: Yes. Look, there were a lot of chefs that stirred this pot. You're talking about environmentalists, you're talking about business lobbies from different branches and business groups that were fighting amongst each other. The plastics versus the paper industry were fighting each other on this. Then you actually have the actual lawmakers who are supposed to write these bills and then vote upon them.

There's just a lot of things. The paper is the big one. The paper carve-outs for retail stores and the banning in supermarkets, but there are a lot of just little exemptions here and there and what is banned and what is not banned. Carryout bags are banned plastic bags everywhere in New Jersey, but you can get plastic bags inside the store. If you are picking up vegetables at your supermarket, you can get a plastic bag there, put it in there. If you get meat, you could have a plastic bag there. Dry cleaning bags are exempted. Curiously, newspaper bags are exempted as well. There's all these little carve-outs in the bill so it's not exactly 100% straightforward.

Brian Lehrer: We're getting a call from John in Bradley Beach who says he's on the Plastic Advisory Committee. John, you're on WNYC. Hi, there. What is the Plastic Advisory Committee for people who don't know and what's your role in this?

John: Hey, Brian. Thank you for taking my call. Let me say you have the right person on the phone and with Scott, because he's been covering this plastics issue from the beginning, so you got the right reporter. I just want to let you know part of the law created this Plastics Advisory Council, and it is a mix of environmental groups. There's an academic, there's a municipal representative, and there are people from the industry and the regulated community if you will. Unfortunately, it didn't meet until this week, one month before the law goes into effect.

Ideally, I think, obviously, we would have met earlier, and we could have done maybe more and better job of getting the word out there. I will let that a quasi-governmental group in New Jersey called Clean Communities, they do have a web page and I might as well let your listeners know, it's called bagupnj.com, I guess. Bagupnj.com. There's all sorts of banners, web, social media, samples of downloadable things if you want to make stickers or sandwich boards, or whatever. If you're a town, an entity, an environmental commission, you can help get the word out by going to Bag Up NJ and using some of those resources.

Again, in the ideal world, I think that this plastics council would have met earlier, and we could have had some of these discussions because we know it's going to be a challenge to educate 9 million people about this big change.

Brian Lehrer: John, thank you for reading that. Very informative. Jonathan in Englewood has a question about what this is going to mean for some shoppers. Hi, Jonathan, you're on WNYC.

Jonathan: Good morning. I have a question about home delivery of groceries. Both my wife and I are immune suppressed. We don't go to grocery stores if we can avoid it. We use Instacart to have our groceries delivered and they always come in plastic bags. Is there a Jersey Plan for this?

Brian Lehrer: Scott, do you know?

Scott Fallon: Yes. I reached out to Instacart with this very question last week, "What are you going to do with this change?" They said that they're basically doing what the stores do. If you order from a store, you will likely be charged $1 to $2 to put your groceries into a reusable bag.

Brian Lehrer: Jonathan, thank you. Probably not the answer you wanted to hear but the answer you got. Nijia in the Bronx has some experience to share with Jerseyans getting ready for this. Hi, Nijia.

Nijia: Hey. Hi.

Brian Lehrer: Were you at laughing at me or someone else?

Nijia: Yes. I adore you. It's ridiculous. I'm so happy to hear your voice like for real, real. I live in the South Bronx Mott Haven Mott Senior. I am not flushed with money. Money comes and goes. For me to have a cute bag for 50 cents or something, I'm like, ''Okay,'' but many of my friends have had the bag of bags for years. We've had extra little baggies and stuff. What I'm noticing is that stores now at least in New York City, they're charging and they're charging more and more for these bags.

It went literally from 5 cents or from a nickel to $1.25 in some places. I'm not happy with that because I could go and find like a Glimpse bag at The Met or go get me starry night or something artsy and funky for $6 if I wanted to do that. The thing I've noticed, I'll go to the store, and it's going to hit some stores economically especially in poor neighborhoods because you go to a store and you might overbuy a little bit because you think, "Oh, I need this and I need this," and you start buying these things, you bring it to the counter, and you know what?

Say the Dollar store or something like that, you go to the counter-- or I don't think Target will have this problem, but you go to the counter and you know what they offer you now? Actual plastic garbage bags like hefty bags. Who wants that? I'm serious and some people are happy to take that, ''I don't mind.'' Well, I mind. I mind having my stuff I worked so hard for thrown in a garbage bag just because I forgot my bag. There's my warning like, this isn't as cozy, you're going to pay and it's difficult.

Brian Lehrer: Nijia, thank you. Thank you for such good detail. Please call us again. Don't make this your last time, I think it was your first. Scott, some buyer beware, right? What are we really buying here in New Jersey with this new law in terms of the practical ways that it's going to be rolled out in stores including gradual increases in the price of those makeup bags you have to buy if you have to buy them?

Scott Fallon: I think that was one of the reasons why paper bags were banned only in supermarkets and not anywhere else. If you go to a small mom-and-pop shop, if you go to the local deli, go to the local bodega, you'll still be able to get a paper bag at those places. Now, that's going to cost that small mom-and-pop shop more money because, again, a paper bag is roughly three to four times more expensive than a plastic bag, so there is something they may have a little markup in their prices because of that to supplement and to cover that cost, but I bet you're going to see a lot of small businesses just go to paper.

Brian Lehrer: Yes and as she was calling from the South Bronx, there are also economic disparities here in terms of who's going to get hit, does the State deal with that explicitly?

Scott Fallon: There are some exemptions for small businesses, especially on the foam food container issue in terms of having about a little bit more of a gear to gradually [unintelligible 00:12:09] this in, but yes, you're talking about economies of scale. If you're talking about large, gigantic supermarket chains versus the local deli; the local deli is going to be hit a lot harder than Whole Foods, that's for sure.

Brian: One more. Caitlyn in Asbury Park, you're on WNYC. Hi, Caitlin.

Caitlin: Good morning. How are you?

Brian: Okay.

Caitlin: My name is Caitlin. I grew up in New Jersey, but I live in D.C where we have a five-cent bag tax and during the pandemic, I've been flooding my time between D.C and New Jersey and it really is shocking the number of grocery bags that you get in New Jersey. In D.C most people bring their own bags and if you forget one at home, the grocer just doesn't give you very many. They'll fit your groceries into one bag but here in New Jersey, I've spent $30 on groceries and I've had people give me one bag for chicken, one bag for eggs, one bag for grapes, and walking out of the grocery store with like 12 plastic bags for $30 worth of groceries. I'm looking forward to seeing how this change goes really.

Brian Lehrer: What can they learn from D.C?

Caitlin: It's pretty easy to bring your own bag. When I go out for errands, I always just keep a sustainable grocery bag with me when I'm out, and sometimes if you forget, it's a mistake that you make occasionally but you just have to have to plan.

Brian Lehrer: Caitlin, thank you very much and that'll be the last word for now on this New Jersey's ban on plastic bags, paper bags, and some food containers goes into effect on Wednesday, May 4th. May the 4th be with you. Scott Fallon, staff writer covering the environment for The Record and NorthJersey.com thanks for telling us about it.

Scott Fallon: Sure, my pleasure, Brian. Bye.

Copyright © 2022 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.