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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. The New Jersey Legislature has passed and Governor Murphy has signed a new bipartisan law requiring that students in grades K through 12 are taught media literacy. On this day off from school, for all you teachers out there and for parents and students as well, let's talk about what that might mean. For a bill that passed the state Senate, 36 to nothing, according to what I read, which almost never happens, there is already some debate breaking out about whether media literacy education itself will reinforce media bias.

Let's see what might be in these developing curriculum guidelines and how it might protect kids from the downsides of social media and maybe start a new series of debates about misinformation and critical thinking at the same time. Our guest is Olga Polites, Lead Advocate for the New Jersey chapter of Media Literacy Now and Composition and Rhetoric instructor at Rowan University in New Jersey. She has been an advocate for this law and for a media literacy curriculum. Professor Polites, thanks for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Olga Polites: Thank you so much for having me on.

Brian Lehrer: What does the law actually mandate?

Olga Polites: The law actually does not use the term "media literacy." What it does is it mandates, it directs the Department of Education to develop standards that will be implemented into the K-12 curriculum. It's actually information literacy, and what that will do is it will teach students how to process information. They'll learn how it's created and produced, the difference between facts, points of view, and opinions, the economic, legal, social issues surrounding it, the ethical production of information. What's really important in the way that we talk about this, and you already hinted at that in your introduction, is that we have to be very cognizant of the terms that we use around it.

Information literacy is the purview of information library scientists, also known as librarians. They are the ones that have the criteria, the highly specialized credentials to teach this. Sure, media literacy is a part of information literacy. We are still working through how to talk about digital media skills. We are very, very focused on making sure that the dialog that we have clearly delineates exactly what students will be learning so as not to fall victim to the political outlines that seem to creep their way into this discussion.

Brian Lehrer: Teachers in New Jersey or anywhere else were doing this on a school holiday. You can participate. You're invited to call in and tell us how you see social media or conventional media misinformation express itself in your students' lives. 212-433-WNYC, teachers, 212-433-9692, or tweet at @BrianLehrer. Parents and students yourselves can call, too. Teachers, how do you already teach media literacy and what do you hope is in the curriculum? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. For Olga Polites Polites, lead advocate for the New Jersey chapter of Media Literacy Now. If the mandate is for media literacy education in grades K through 12, obviously, this will be very different for five-year-olds in kindergarten than 18-year-old seniors in high school. Can you give us a sense of how it might begin for the youngest kids?

Olga Polites: Yes. Imagine that a kindergarten or a first-grade teacher takes their students down to the library, the media center, and students see books on shelves. One of the ways that those librarians will talk about the different types of books that are on the shelves. For example, a biography of George Washington. Perhaps that librarian will talk about how the events that are contained in this book are real, "Just as you came to school. This is the name of your school, et cetera. This is the town that you live in. This is factual information. It's true."

Then perhaps they'll pick up a Dr. Seuss book, The Cat in the Hat, and say, "Well, Dr. Seuss made up this story. Cats can't talk. They don't conduct themselves in this way." At a very, very basic level, that would be an example of how media literacy, information literacy would be taught to those students.

Then, of course, a senior in high school would learn far more sophisticated skills, how to use databases, which we explain to students that these cost a lot of money because they're peer-reviewed. When you are doing research on a topic that you've been assigned in a history class, in a health class and an English class, this is how you're accessing this information. These are digital library resources. That's why media literacy is so all-encompassing. Again, we always talk about literacies in terms of reading and math, and this is complicated. Because of technology and the advancements of technology, we now have a new literacy, and it's media literacy.

We don't really think about it as a standalone academic subject, but it is. There are people who are highly credentialed to be able to manage this. As you said, there are some teachers throughout the state, throughout the country who are already engaged in this, and they are teaching this.

Brian Lehrer: We'll get into a dispute that's already broken out between Governor Murphy and the lead Republican sponsor of this bipartisan bill. We'll get to that, but let's take a phone call from Sarah in Queens, who's both a teacher and a parent, she says. Hi, Sarah. You're on WNYC.

Sarah: Hi. Good morning.

Brian Lehrer: Good morning.

Sarah: Hello?

Brian Lehrer: Hello.

Sarah: Hi. I'm a teacher and a parent, and I feel that a lot of media literacy should really begin at home because I feel, as a parent, we really need to monitor what the kids are doing. We have students in our school who are far below reading standards, but they are on TikTok and YouTube channels. Their families have shows, and they're always on YouTube, but yet they can't read. I feel that the parents really need to monitor it at home first before we bring it into the schools.

Brian Lehrer: Or why not simultaneously, Sarah?

Sarah: As a public school teacher, we're battling with so much right now. I don't know if we have time, honestly, where we're teaching phonics and reading and writing and math, and the DOE is rolling out all these new math programs online, and we have social-emotional learning that we're doing, and it's so much in one day. I feel like it's just too much to add to our plate.

Brian Lehrer: I'm curious, Sarah, if you've had any conversations with parents explicitly about what you just raised. "Your kid is doing so many social media, but they can't read," something like that.

Sarah: Yes. We have had conversations, and they just say, "Oh, well, your job is to teach my kid to read," and that's it.

Brian Lehrer: Sarah, thank you for that disturbing phone call. Olga, she brings up TikTok and other social media, and you've been talking about media literacy in school as separating fact from fiction, truth from disinformation. Also, as you know, as they get toward the ages, maybe preteen, maybe it's even younger, where social media seems to be having such serious mental health effects, especially for girls, how would media literacy education in school under this new New Jersey law mitigate against that, or is it only to inoculate them against political disinformation?

Olga Polites: That's a great question. It really isn't also about inoculating them against political information, but what it does is, one of the major points of this bill is teaching students the critical thinking skills regarding the economic, legal and social issues surrounding the use of information. For example, the caller talked about TikTok and YouTube. This is how the New Jersey bill- again, focusing on information literacy, this is how students would learn about what TikTok is. It's an app. Who owns it? Who is monetizing this app. What kind of information is being shared on it? Same thing with YouTube. YouTube is a Google product. What kind of money is Google making from posting these things on YouTube? Again, another of the points is the ethical production of information. That is why the focus on the ways in which information comes to us. I am glad that the caller talked about the adults as well. There's probably a need for everyone to have a short tutorial on this is what happens when you get your news, whether you're a preteen, a 9th grader, or a 49-year-old.

What happens when you get your news and your information from social media? We now are at a tipping point where more than half of US citizens polled by Pew said that as well as the associated Press, they report that more than half of their information comes from social media platforms. I don't think we've caught up with, unfortunately, with telling people and educating people about this is what happens when you get that information from these social media platforms. I think it's a much larger issue, but I think it can trickle down to children.

Again, your caller's concerns about this is where students are, and we do have to meet them where they are. Rather than not talk about YouTube or TikTok, that will become part of the critical thinking skills. We don't run away from it, we don't ignore it. We actually use those because, again, technology changes so quickly. Let's use those as examples of information streams and let's look at these more critically. Again, teaching students how to think, not what to think.

Brian Lehrer: We're talking about the new law passed late last year and signed early this year by Governor Murphy in New Jersey, that will mandate some kind of media literacy instruction in K through 12 in public schools in the state. We're talking about it with Olga Polites lead advocate for the New Jersey Chapter of Media Literacy Now and a composition and rhetoric instructor at Rowan University. She's been an advocate for this law and a media literacy curriculum in New Jersey public schools. This is WNYC FM HD and AM New York WNJTFM-88.1, Trenton, WNJP 88.5, Sussex, WNJY 89.3, Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River.

We are New York and New Jersey public radio and live streaming @wnyc.org and MaryEileen in Jersey City. You're on WNYC. Hello? Whops, Let me try that again. I think that was my fault. MaryEileen, I think we have you now. You're there?

MaryEileen: Yes, thank you for taking my call. Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: Yes.

MaryEileen: Hi, I'd like to ask your guest Olga Polites, because in Jersey City, the Board of Ed has a billion-dollar budget, and we're also dealing with crumbling infrastructure and air conditioning not possible for schools and things like that. Anyway, they just recently passed, and I'd like to know if the guest think this is worthy spending $1 million for media rooms in all the schools so they can play games. What is her opinion on this?

Brian Lehrer: Are you aware of this in that way that they're building media rooms for kids to play games in Jersey City schools, Olga?

Olga Polites: No, I'm not aware of that. The way school districts independently, and there are 600 slightly over that number of school districts in New Jersey, local control is local control. I can't respond to that question.

Brian Lehrer: All right. You put it on the map on the radio, so maybe other people in Jersey City are going to make this if you're describing it accurately, more of an issue than it is right now, MaryEileen. Thank you for that call. Julie in Manhattan. You're on WNYC. Hi, Julie.

Julie Skelko: Hi, Brian. This is Julie Skelko, and I've been on your show before. I'm a mother of three kids, I'm a mid ecologist and I'm a longtime journalist. I am so concerned about these issues that I actually formed an organization called Get Media Savvy because I think it's critical that we figure out how to fight all the media chaos and protect the well-being of our citizens and of our children.

I wrote a story a couple of years ago that was deeply disturbing, and it was about the growing rates of tween suicide in the United States. Ten-year-olds in America are more likely to die by their own hand now than from any type of disease or birth defect. It's not unconnected to what's happening in the chaos in our media.

Brian Lehrer: What do you think the schools could do as they implement this law, as they draw up a curriculum? There's going to be a series of public hearings on how to teach media literacy in K through 12 in New Jersey under this law. Julie, what do you think should be in it, or do you think the schools can even do this?

Julie Skelko: I think what Olga said is exactly right, and I think every state needs to follow New Jersey's lead and implement mandatory K through 12 education. I think it needs to be developmentally appropriate at each age, just like Olga explained. I think what the teacher said who called in is also really critical. Teachers are overwhelmed, and they're not going to be able to do this without support from parents. Media literacy in the classroom is not going to take all day. It's not like a huge investment of time, and it can be incorporated to what they're already teaching.

Unless we do that, and unless we push back against this desire to just keep having more fun and use social media at every turn, we're really beginning to erode all of the gains we've made in having math literacy in society. It's critical that we center the importance of learning, of books, of reading, and that we emphasize what gets lost when we give that all up to just have fun on social media all the time.

Brian Lehrer: Julie, thank you so much. Kevin in Northport with another point of view, I think. Kevin, you're on WNYC. Hi, there.

Kevin: Hi. I'm an attorney and I often teach rhetoric as a continuing legal ed program to new lawyers. They especially need that since college freshmen no longer have to take logic. I'm nervous about a government program to teach such matters. [unintelligible 00:17:09] at Pace, who was a great scholar, investigated the whole program of critical thinking, thinking he'd write a textbook on it, but he told me he didn't write the book because he found when he investigated these programs, they really consisted of the teacher pushing his own political agenda on the students. I have complete faith in the teachers union's ability to turn the program into why certain publications and political beliefs are correct and others not.

Brian Lehrer: Ah, interesting point, Kevin. Thank you very much. This brings me to the dispute that I mentioned earlier, Professor Polites, that has already broken out between Governor Murphy and the lead Republican sponsor of the bill in the state Senate. I'm going to read a little bit and listeners, I think you'll find this interesting if you don't know about it a little bit from an article, I guess it's an opinion piece in the press of Atlantic City. It says the bipartisan accord started splitting the moment the Democratic governor signed the bill into law.

Governor Phil Murphy said, "Our democracy remains under sustained attack through the proliferation of disinformation that is eroding the role of truth in our political and civil discourse," which the article describes as a Democratic campaign theme aimed at vilifying critics and alarming supporters. It says this drew a sharp response from State Senator Michael Testa. Republican from Cape May, the lead sponsor of the Senate version of the legislation. He said, "I am disappointed that Governor Murphy has chosen to frame the value of teaching kids about information literacy in terms of January 6, which could give the impression there is some ideological slant to the law, which there is not.

This law isn't about teaching kids that any specific idea is true or false. Rather, it's about helping them learn how to research, evaluate and understand the information they are presented for themselves, said Senator Testa. Then the article says, politicians forever have been fountains of misinformation, pretty much saying anything to try and get and hold power, which makes them a doubtful source for a ministry of discerning truth. Finally, another view, says the article, just to state the obvious, it says, is that democracy is stronger than ever, as measured by broader and greater public interest and engagement.

Perhaps that's a threat to the state's ruling political parties and public unions. The caller mentioned the teachers union. A genuine critical thinking program would include how people are misinformed by government and the education bureaucracy which became painfully apparent to this writer in the pandemic and afterwards they write. Can Governor murphy's strong feelings and those of the editorial writer there both be accommodated in the same curriculum, Professor Polites?

Olga Polites: Yes, they can. Let me take a stab at Governor Murphy's responses well as Senator Tester's response, again, this is a complicated issue because what happens is as your caller from Northport said, students don't learn logic anymore. Well, that's partially true. Certainly, the K to 12 curriculum, those skills aren't specifically taught or delineated. However, that doesn't mean that some serious critical thinking skills aren't being taught, let's be very upfront about that. New Jersey students rank among the highest in the nation in their reading and math literacy skills. It's also not a government program, this bill is not a government program.

This is no different than the math standards that require algebra one be taught by 10th grade to all high school students, there's nothing different from that. Again, what has happened is there's been this conflation of the term media and information. What we have to do is be really vigilant, and we have to be very clear about skill building, and what media literacy now and the National Association of media literacy education, and a number of other nonprofits.

This is about creating an environment for students to learn these skills so that once they graduate, they are able to participate in democracy, of course, make better decisions, economic decisions, better social decisions, better health decisions.

This is, yes, sure, when you pull the camera back, why do we teach these things? Why do we teach algebra one? Why do we teach financial literacy? Because we want them to graduate from high school and make really good decisions for themselves. The spat that has emerged, again, from the [unintelligible 00:22:25] of Atlantic City article there, I think it's more noise. Let's focus on the signal, and the signal is developing these critical thinking skills for students. Remember, as the Northport caller said, teaching logic is going to inevitably lead to teaching the information resources that are available through libraries.

Here at Rowan University, every single freshman is taught logic, it's part of our first-year writing program, Rutgers has it, College of New Jersey has it, everyone has it. These are not government programs, these are values that are deemed to be important enough, where if you want to be a productive member of society, these are the things that you're going to learn in any time anyone wants.

Brian Lehrer: I have to jump in because we're really out of time and I want you to tell people how they can participate in the public hearings that are coming up on this. I'll just add to your point about logic being a required class. I remember from my college days, that logic was the only course that I was aware of that was offered both through the math department and the philosophy department.

What a fascinating intersection of one topic, it was the same class taught by the same teacher, but you could take logic and get math credit for it, or you could take logic and get philosophy credit for it. If you thought those two are opposite, well, that's where disciplines collide and the human mind and the human heart collide, right?

Olga Polites: Yes. I graduated from LaSalle University, and logic was my philosophy requirement. I'm so glad you framed it that way, because, again, that's how you get to the signal. The politicization of this issue, this is our challenge, so to your question about what can people do, the public hearings, this is about serious-minded people but especially parents who care about their children's academic development, but also their social and their emotional development, their psychological development. If they're concerned about social media companies, and they're concerned about information, then they should be front and center as far as sharing their positions about what they want schools to do.

Brian Lehrer: All right, public hearings coming up in New Jersey on what to put in the K through 12 information literacy curriculum. We thank Olga Polites, lead advocate for the New Jersey chapter of Media Literacy Now and composition and rhetoric instructor at Rowan University. Thanks so very much, we really enjoyed it.

Olga Polites: Thank you for having me on.

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