[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. June is the primary month in both New York and New Jersey and we'll keep covering it every day on the show. In New Jersey, primary day is next Tuesday, June 8th. Most of the attention is on who will take on Governor Murphy in the November general election. The governor himself is running on a post for the democratic nomination, but there are four candidates vying for the GOP nod. Since evidently, no democratic governor has been reelected in the States since Brendan Byrne in 1977, let's get to know those Republicans a little bit. There are some interesting down-ballot primary races too.

Joining me for this are Matt Katz, WNYC reporter and author of the book, American Governor: Chris Christie's Bridge to Redemption and Nancy Solomon, WNYC New Jersey reporter, managing editor of New Jersey Public Radio and host of Ask Governor Murphy, the monthly call-in show on the station. Hey, Nancy. Hey, Matt.

Nancy Solomon: Hey, Brian.

Matt Katz: Hey, Brian. Hey, Nancy.

Nancy: Hello, Matt.

Brian: Let's start with the GOP candidates hoping to take on Governor Murphy. They're all men and then we'll get to know a little bit about how different they are from one another. Nancy, is there a frontrunner?

Nancy: I think Matt's going to talk about the Republicans.

Brian: Oh, okay.

Matt: Sure. There certainly is, Brian. Jack Ciattarelli is certainly the frontrunner. He's been endorsed by all 21 county chairpeople, of GOP county chairpeople in the state. He's a former state assemblyman. He ran four years ago in the primary for governor and he's running, for the most part, a traditional Republican campaign, a campaign that New Jerseyans will recognize, focused on the stateside property taxes. He opposes sanctuary state policies for undocumented immigrants.

He's waited a little bit into coronavirus politics and after Phil Murphy for not unmasking kids, as they say, in schools and for the deaths in nursing homes in the immediate aftermath of the outbreak, and not for opening the economy soon enough to the detriment of businesses. I've spent a little bit of time with him on the campaign trail and went to an event a couple of weeks ago.

He reminded me of the guy you mentioned in the open, Chris Christie who won two terms as Republican governor, was extremely popular, but left office is quite unpopular. They reminded me of each other in the sense that they could both speak quite well without notes. Ciattarelli spoke to a group of retired cops and firefighters and he didn't have any notes in front of him. He took all comers. He blasted Phil Murphy as an outsider because he was originally from Massachusetts, which is similar to the way Christie handled Jon Corzine, when Christie beat Jon Corzine who is the incumbent at the time.

He mostly espoused traditional pre-Trump Republican positions and sprinkled in some personal anecdotes as Chris Christie would, but in this primary, he's running against two very, very MAGA candidates. I can give you a little briefing on those two. One is Hirsh Singh who is a perennial candidate. He's run for several offices before and he believes that Trump won the election. He believes Trump is the greatest president of his lifetime. He has raised about half a million dollars, but almost all of it as a loan from himself. He typically is funded by his parents. He lives with his parents, but he debated Ciattarelli a couple of weeks ago. He went after Ciattarelli as a Liz Cheney, Mitt Romney kind of Republican.

Hirsh Singh says that there's an internal poll that has him beating Ciattarelli and there is some momentum from MAGA people and MAGA Republicans, Trump-supporting Republicans in the state, people who believe that Trump won the election, that it was stolen from him to support a MAGA candidate. However, there's a second MAGA candidate. That makes this a little bit more comfortable for Ciattarelli, the standard bearer here. The other MAGA candidate is a guy, Phil Rizzo who is a real estate developer and pastor. He has been endorsed by Bill Spadea who's a right-wing personality at New Jersey 101.5, a radio station that has some influence among grassroots Republicans.

He has some controversy too because he has a one-and-a-half-million-dollar house in the woods, 45 minutes away from his church which is in Hudson County. The church owns the house. He sold the house to his church and nobody pays property taxes on it because it's considered a parsonage. That was reported by Politico and that's got him into a little bit of hot water, but he's got an interesting personal story. He lost his right arm at his elbow as a small child but still played football in high school and he is getting some momentum at least online from MAGA-supporting Republicans. Then he's a fourth candidate who's not much of an entity, a former freeholder named Brian Levine.

It's really these two MAGA guys against Jack Ciattarelli, the standard-bearer of [crosstalk].

Brian: That's turning Liz Cheney into Bernie Sanders or Nancy Pelosi.

Matt: I know, right? Yes.

Brian: It's hilarious, considering her voting record, but there we are. Matt, do you have any sense how salient an issue to Republican primary voters this Trump really won the election argument is as opposed to, oh, I don't know, property taxes, the school systems, things like that?

Matt: Yes. There is a internal poll that was released by the Democratic Governors Association last week by a legitimate polling firm, but it indicated that a majority of Republicans in the state don't believe that Trump lost, that they believe he won, and that they want a MAGA candidate. It also showed that Hirsh Singh was six points down from Ciattarelli which makes it a real race. Again, this was a poll released by the Democrats, but by a reputable polling agency. I went to an event with Ciattarelli and he took questions for about 45 minutes from a Republican audience.

They're retired cops and firefighters and I will tell you, however, that Trump's name did not come up once. It was all about New Jersey. It was about the Second Amendment, laws in New Jersey. It was about property taxes in New Jersey. It really is the fundamental question really nationally. I mean, this is the first nationwide test of MAGA's influence in traditional Republican circles. Obviously, New Jersey is a bluer state, but MAGA is MAGA wherever you are. There's a large percentage of people in the state who don't believe that Biden is the legitimate president. They are Trumpy and Republicans.

However, when it comes to electing a Republican governor of New Jersey, will they set that aside and just vote for the guy who they think is going to lower their property taxes? That's a real question of whether Trump has I think staying influence in the country nationally. I will say Trump has not endorsed, but the MAGA candidates have posted pictures with Trump. There was an event at the Trump's club a couple of weeks ago or maybe last week for Phil Rizzo and Ciattarelli, I should note, is been called a Never Trumper by his opponents. He did not vote for Trump in 2016. He said he skipped that line in the ballot, but he did vote for him in 2020.

He said he doesn't like his personality, but he agrees with his policies.

Brian: Listeners, we can take a few phone calls in this segment. First of all, if you are a registered Republican in New Jersey, who are you leaning toward in the gubernatorial primary and what is it that you think a Republican could do better for the state than Governor Murphy? Registered New Jersey Republicans, 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280 as we are six days out from primary day. Anyone else from New Jersey may call with any questions or thoughts about the New Jersey primary, 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280 for our reporters, Matt Katz and Nancy Solomon.

Nancy, turning to Governor Murphy, you brought some tape from your show last week, asked Governor Murphy, the call-in, and this is about having no primary challenger. Here's the governor.

Governor Murphy: As my old friend and mentor, Frank Lautenberg used to say, there's only two ways to run, scared or unopposed. We happen to be unopposed, but we're running scared and we'll continue to be that way.

Brian: Nancy, what did he mean he's running scared?

Nancy: I think he is running scared and a lot of people are disappointed about it. He made progressives in New Jersey very happy for a couple of years. Now, he has shifted somewhat towards the middle, but also, he has aligned himself with the county machines. There is a very large movement among progressives in New Jersey to upend the power of the machines and make democratic politics in New Jersey capital D, Democratic Party politics, more democratic, small D. There are a lot of folks who are very disappointed with him about the fact that he has realigned himself with the machines, most notably the George Norcross machine in Southern Jersey. No one is saying that they wouldn't vote for him because of this, but I think the primary is not going to be a problem for him, given that he's running unopposed. I think some of the ways that he's running the primary in terms of aligning himself with the machine could cause some lasting damage to him among progressives in the state.

Brian: Here's another excerpt from last week's as Governor Murphy, it's his response to your question about the machine.

Governor Murphy: Look at the slate that I'm running with. I'll put it in every one of the 21 counties. It oozes diversity in every respect, including of experience, but literal diversity.

Brian: Do you want to keep going in on that, Nancy?

Nancy: Well, I was not very satisfied with that answer. He's saying, "I'm on a slate, that is a very strong slate of candidates that I support," is what he was saying. The reason he supports these candidates is because they are people of color, they come from diverse backgrounds, and have diverse experience. It really doesn't answer the question. Can we back up a little bit? Let's talk about what's called the county line. New Jersey has a ballot. Every county in the primary, the ballot is designed by the county clerk in the county.

The county parties, which is a committee made up of representatives from across the county, but often these decisions are made not with the 1,000-member committee, but by the power brokers behind closed doors, they endorse candidates. Those candidates run on a slate on what's called the county line. Murphy has aligned himself with these slates and the problem is that it confers such an advantage because the voter, number one, it has the best placement for where your eye is and research has been done to show that people just automatically think that the more legitimate candidates are the ones that have the prominent position on the ballot.

It mixes up all the different people running for different seats. For instance, all over the country, every other state has a ballot in which you have governor and then all the candidates running for governor, senator, all the candidates running for senator. In New Jersey, you get a slate that starts with, in this case, this year, next Tuesday, Governor Murphy, and then you'll see your local assembly people and your state senator, and then your county freeholders. Those are all the no names that, in the case of Democrats, Democrats have been voting for for years, so then they just go down and they tick off everyone on the line.

Then take, say, Camden, the ballot in Camden County, where the very qualified challengers who, by the way, are all people of color, so Murphy did not answer that question, they are five or six columns out and they're clump together all together. I'm sorry, I'm talking about for mayor of Camden, you have the line candidate running with Governor Murphy in Column 1 on the left-hand side of the ballot which is where your eye reads first, and then five or six columns out, you've got the other three candidates for mayor. They're all together in one little group. It's very confusing. Are you supposed to vote for them too?

Are you supposed to vote for all of them or just one of them because you vote down the line on Column 1? On Column 5, you're only supposed to pick one. The ballot is manipulative, it's confusing, and it harms anyone who does not have the blessing of the machine boss. There is a lawsuit that's been filed to stop this practice. The attorney general of New Jersey is defending that lawsuit, which I also asked the governor about that. He said that, well, it's the law and it's the role of the attorney general's office is to defend the laws and if it's going to change it, then the law has to change. I don't know why they couldn't try to settle the case and come up with a plan for reform.

Progressives, they have elevated this issue and they're educating the public. There's the Good Government Coalition of New Jersey is collecting endorsers of a reform plan that they want to present. There really is a groundswell to get this changed and it has real effects because year in and year out, it is the county line candidates who win elections in New Jersey and it makes it very hard for outsiders to create change.

Brian: This is WNYC-FM HD and AM New York. WNJT-FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are in New York and New Jersey Public Radio as we're previewing next Tuesday's New Jersey primary with our New Jersey reporters, Matt Katz and Nancy Solomon. Jim in Spring Lake, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jim. Thanks for calling in.

Jim: Thanks for having me on, Brian. Hello, Nancy. Hello, Matt. It's Jim Keady, I'm a former elected official in Asbury Park and also a Rep state assembly and for Congress. I just want to reiterate the points that Nancy is making. With the county line in place, our primary elections are just a joke. It's not real democracy. Back in 2017, Governor Murphy bought up the county lines with the [unintelligible 00:16:38] that he had and that was their strategy to win the election. Now, he's aligned himself with those county lines once again.

I live in Spring Lake which is in Monmouth County, which is in the 30th state legislative district. I have a Democratic primary ballot on my desk, there's not one competitive race. There are no challengers because people know, if you attempt to run off the line, which I have done, and I think I came the closest of any off-the-line candidate, possibly in New Jersey State history when I garnered 43% of the primary vote off the line in 2018 congressional primary, but most people maybe get to 18%, 19% off the line. Until that line is abolished, the small d in the Democratic Party of having a democratic process is an absolute lie. Governor Murphy could easily stand up, this is why progressives are upset.

Governor Murphy could stand up and say, "I don't want to run on the line. I want the ballots changed." He could use his bully pulpit as the governor to be a true progressive and he's not. He's aligned himself with the power brokers.

Brian: Why do you think he hasn't in this respect?

Jim: I would say he's lacking the political courage to do it. I don't think he has the political capital. I think he fears the backlash and he wants a second term. He's more concerned about getting the second term than doing what's right with regard to breaking this monopoly that is backed by the Norcross machines, machines in Essex County and all over the state of New Jersey and right here and where I live in Monmouth and Mercer County and the congressional fourth district. He's not [inaudible 00:18:12] on the machines.

Brian: Thank you very much for that insight. Patrick in West Orange, you're on WNYC. Hi, Patrick.

Patrick: Oh, hello, Brian. Thank you for taking my call. I wasn't sure you were taking calls. Am I on?

Brian: Yes.

Patrick: Oh, okay. Thank you, Brian. Well, listen. I wanted to point out, your reporter was describing the problem with the layout of the line on the ballots for primaries and whatnot. That problem is not the same in every county. I'm in Essex County and our county does not do that. I think it's important to point out that not every county is doing this problem. I agree, it's a terrible problem she was talking about. I don't think that that should be done, but not every county is doing that. Essex County, for instance, does not do that.

I have my sample ballot right here in front of me and it's very simple and very clear. It has columns and rows because it's a grid like a spreadsheet, columns and rows and in every column is the office. Everybody running for that office is in the same column. Then the rows are the slates. Everybody who's on a slate together is in the same row. It's very clear and simple. It's not screwed up in every county the way she was talking about these.

Brian: Interesting, Patrick, thank you very much. I'll tell you, Nancy, you've really touched a third rail here because every call we're getting now is about the ballot line.

Nancy: I'm telling you, this used to be something that only Matt and I talked about. Now, it has become a real issue and I agree, Jim Keady said it well that Governor Murphy, he's running unopposed. He could have made a choice to oppose the practice, but let me respond to my Essex County neighbor. I have my Essex County ballot in front of me. I agree 100%, it's absolutely true that every county does it differently and some are better than others. There are a couple that are pretty good.

I wouldn't call Essex County good though because what you have is you do have the county line, instead of Column 1, like in Camden County, it's Row A, it goes across the very top of the ballot and it has got all the comments and all the endorsed folks in it. It's not as confusing because they've got the challengers lined up properly so you can see who to vote for. It's not as confusing and manipulative as the Camden County ballot, but the Essex County Democratic Committee, it doesn't hold the convention and vote openly for the candidates that it endorses. That is a decision that is made by the people in power behind closed doors.

I think you have to question, why is there a process in which a few individuals decide who gets the best placement on the ballot? Everywhere else, all over the country, it's done by some form of a coin toss or something out of a hat. In the general election, when you've got both parties involved, it's done by pulling a name out of a hat. There is an argument in favor of county party committees having some say in who gets endorsed and who gets pushed as the candidate because these are the folks who are involved in politics at the ground level, they've earned that right, they know the candidates, and they're very engaged.

I think our democracy is moved beyond that at this point. I think people really would like to have a more open and free choice in the primary for who they're voting for. Look at what New York is doing with Ranked Choice. That's just super interesting and phenomenal. New Jersey is really stuck in the dark ages with this stuff.

Brian: We're just about out of time. Matt, would you just tell everybody, is there mail-in voting? Is there early voting? Is there Ranked Choice voting? I guess from Nancy's response just now, no, but how's it working the year after the pandemic presidential?

Matt: I believe early voting has been postponed until later this year. Is that right, Nancy?

Nancy: Yes, October.

Matt: The big headline from the primary happening next week is that all 120 seats in the legislature are up and several of those seats are contested. It is a democratic control legislature. They have a supermajority, but all 120 seats are up in addition to the governor's race obviously, so people should check those sample ballots and look on all sides of the ballots to find out all the candidates who are running.

Nancy: Brian, everyone got a mail-in ballot. This primary next week is a hybrid between pre-pandemic and during the pandemic in that you can go to your local polling place and it's just like every year, it's open from 6:00 to 8:00, but everyone also got a ballot in the mail that they can return either by mailing it or by dropping it in a dropbox. There are several per county and you can find them online, or bringing your filled-in ballot to your polling place on Election Day.

Correction:   All voters in New Jersey are not automatically receiving vote-by-mail ballots this year. Many voters are on a permanent list to receive vote by mail ballots automatically, but many others are not. Voters will need to submit an application to their county clerk if they plan to vote by mail in the 20201 Primary and General Election.  More information is available here: https://www.state.nj.us/state/elections/vote-by-mail.shtml

Brian: Nancy Solomon, WNYC New Jersey reporter and host of Ask Governor Murphy, the monthly call-in show, and Matt Katz, WNYC reporter and author of American Governor: Chris Christie's Bridge to Redemption. As we wrap this up, you two, and we go to the news with Michael Hill, now, some of our listeners know that before he came here recently to be our Morning Edition host and newscast on this show, Michael Hill was at New Jersey's NJTV and WBGO, did you two put your fingers, your thumbs on the scale of the hiring process so we got another New Jersey head in our newsroom?

Nancy: If I could have, I would have, but I wasn't allowed. We're very happy about Michael.

Matt: I do missing Mike a lot on the street reporting in New Jersey since he's in the studio doing our Morning Edition every day, but it's amazing to have a New Jersey voice on the air.

Brian: Thanks, Matt. Thanks, Nancy. Michael, over to you.

Copyright © 2021 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.