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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. This morning, WNYC released the seventh and second to last episode of the podcast series Dead End: A New Jersey Political Murder Mystery done by our longtime New Jersey reporter and editor Nancy Solomon. This Episode Seven makes news. No, Nancy did not figure out who killed the prominent politically connected couple John and Joyce Sheridan, but here's a key moment from the last episode, the previous episode, when the Sheridan son, Mark, tells Nancy what the surviving family members want.

Mark Sheridan: We're not accusing anyone, what we want is we want the investigation that wasn't done the first time.

Brian Lehrer: That's exactly what they're going to get. Nancy joins us now. Hi, Nancy, welcome back to the show.

Nancy Solomon: Thanks, Brian. Hello.

Brian Lehrer: Tell us more.

Nancy Solomon: The state attorney general of New Jersey has-- I can't say reopened because they never opened it. It was a county prosecutor's case, which is where all major crimes get investigated in the state, but the state attorney general has taken over the case and is opening an investigation. As far as I know, I know of at least one couple who were already interviewed by investigators. They are underway at looking at this case for the first time.

The Sheridan family asked for the attorney general's office to step in and take over this investigation pretty much right from the start. They did not agree with what the county prosecutors and the detectives thought, they weren't happy with the crime scene when they got inside the house and saw what had happened. There were a lot of problems as we've detailed in the podcast with that investigation.

Mark Sheridan, representing the four brothers, had gone to the attorney general's office a minimum of three times, maybe more, asking them to get involved because this is the top law enforcement agency in the state. They have the best resources and ability to crack open big, complicated, difficult cases. This is a significant development.

Brian Lehrer: Now, I want to give people some background if they haven't been following the podcast. If you haven't, you could turn off the radio now, and at your leisure, go to episode one and follow it. It's going to keep you on the edge of your seat from episode to episode, I can guarantee you that, or if you want the CliffsNotes version, the SparkNotes version, we'll do a little bit of that right now.

I thought we might get into it a little bit this way, and why people are suspicious that this was not a domestic murder-suicide as the original conclusion had it, but perhaps something more nefarious, and that it might have had something to do with real estate, something to do with politics. I thought we might get into it with another clip from Episode Six, because when the Sheridans were killed, there were all kinds of documents left on the dining room table, we learn.

You explored in Episode Six, a politically involved real estate deal that John Sheridan was involved in. You asked his son, Mark Sheridan, about all those papers. This clip starts with Nancy's question.

Nancy Solomon: What do you make of the documents that your father left on the dining room table?

Mark Sheridan: My father was involved in a very high-dollar real estate transaction that was going to make lots of money for lots of people. We were asked during the investigation if there was anything that was going on in my father's life that might have had anything to do with his death. This was what was going on in his life at the time, and I just think that in that circumstance, it's something that should be investigated and looked into. There were lots of people involved in it and lots of money changing hands and it was a precursor to a whole lot of other transactions.

Brian Lehrer: I love the eerie background music.

Nancy Solomon: Jaron Paul, our music sound designer has done just such an amazing job with this.

Brian Lehrer: Nancy, tell us about those papers and if you think they might have been killed-- the Sheridans might have been killed to hide something about that real estate deal that had connections to South Jersey political bosses.

Nancy Solomon: The papers left on the dining room table are a paper trail, and they're intriguing for a lot of reasons. One reason is that it's very clear when you look at all of the sum total of these documents that John Sheridan who was an experienced hand at politics, he had been in Governor Tom Kean's cabinet. He had advised several governors, and then he had been a lobbyist for many years.

This is a guy who-- I call him, at one point, a governmental MacGyver because he really was expert at fixing problems in government. Here's a guy who is documenting this deal to a high, high level of detail in terms of taking notes about meetings on the phone and phone calls and meetings and writing down what people said, email exchanges, and reports. All of this has to do with a property on the Camden waterfront that a nonprofit development group, kind of like a cross between a nonprofit real estate developer and a business improvement association. It was kind of like the movers and shakers of Camden, who were trying to improve Camden, which is one of the poorest cities in America.

The top staff at this nonprofit developer had an agreement to buy a two-building office complex that's right at the Camden waterfront, so very valuable spot to be. John Sheridan, this is confusing, I realize, but he worked for the hospital in Camden and he was on the board. He was the chairman of the board of this nonprofit developer.

What the documents detail, and it's hard to boil it all down, but basically, a very powerful political party boss, George Norcross, and his brother Phil, who is a lawyer and a lobbyist. They basically get in touch with the nonprofit developer and say, "Hey, you're buying this--" They learned that this building is being-- that they're buying it, and they're like, "Well, we have a real estate developer that we want to buy that building. We want you to turn over that deal to us."

The documents and Episode Six really details, step by step, how that happens and the fact that John Sheridan was fending off that move and trying to protect, even though he worked for George Norcross at the hospital. He was CEO of the hospital, George Norcross is the chairman of the board. He was in a real pickle because he's dealing with his boss, who also happens to be a very powerful character in Camden. That's something we detail in Episode Five, so he's fending off this move, because he's the chairman of the board of this nonprofit and he feels a duty to do the right thing as chairman of the board of the nonprofit.

That was going on in the spring of 2014. Mark Sheridan found it very odd that those documents were out on the table on the night that his parents were murdered because he thought that the stress that his father was experiencing and had talked to him about in the spring of 2014, he assumed that that had all been resolved and gone away. Then he sees all of these documents. He brought all that to the attorney general's office and heard crickets back in 2014.

Brian Lehrer: With all these powerful people involved and a lot of money at stake. Listeners, by the way, I'm going to open up the phones here for a few minutes. Number one, anybody who's been listening to Dead End: A New Jersey Political Murder Mystery, Nancy Solomon's podcast series, and has any observation or question about it, we can wonk out a little bit on Dead End right here, 212-433-WNYC, or anybody connected to Camden or the Sheridans or New Jersey politics who thinks you have a theory, we can't accuse anybody on the air with something that there isn't evidence of, but if you have some inkling of something about something or a relevant question, we can take a few, 212-433 WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer.

The potential relevance of the papers, Nancy, but nobody has evidence at this point to point a finger at anybody, is that if John Sheridan, by trying to do the right thing for the community as he saw it, was going to be an obstacle to some people making a lot of money, then somebody might have wanted him out of the way?

Nancy Solomon: That is a possible theory. I don't have evidence to prove that. I think what's significant is that those documents-- the level to which he documented what was going on, memorialized things, wrote them down, saved the papers. There's one really striking document in that pile which is his scribbled notes on the back of an envelope. It's the notes that he took with him to go meet with Phil Norcross at his law office.

When he leaves that meeting, he takes his visitor sticker which has the time and the date and where he was, Parker McCay, the law office, and he puts it on top of the envelope and he saves it in this pile with all these other documents. I think the significance of the effort that he went to to save the documents and to memorialize what was going on. The fact that four months after all of this is happening, and Cooper's Ferry-- By the way, the nonprofit developer has given up the deal. In May of 2014, they've given up trying to fight for it, and they handed over to these development pair who were recommended by the Norcross brothers.

The fact that it's still on his table, Mark Sheridan felt very strongly about the fact that because these documents were on the dining room table, that showed a level of significance that they were still bothering his father. I don't have proof that they were still bothering his father but that's what Mark Sheridan took away from that experience of finding those.

The real estate deal isn't just a real estate deal because what's going on at that moment in Camden in 2014 is that new tax breaks are just going into effect that were signed by Chris Christie, passed by the legislature, somewhat written and engineered by the three Norcross brothers. The third one is Donald Norcros who's now a Congressman and at the time was in the state legislature.

They give special benefits to Camden that are really, really generous. You can't see it in 2014 but if you go to Camden today and look at what's happened since 2014, you see a billion dollars worth of tax breaks that basically built free buildings for people either connected to the Norcross family or George Norcross himself.

This was a very valuable deal and in Mark Sheridan's argument is not that he's accusing any particular individual of murder but he's saying this needs to be looked at, what this fight was about, and how it's connected to present-day Camden, and how it might be connected to the violent crime at his parents' house just needs to be looked at. That's all he's asking for.

Brian Lehrer: That's what he's apparently getting. Let me play a clip that you have of the new attorney general of New Jersey Matt Platkin. This is him after being introduced as Governor Murphy's nominee for New Jersey attorney general back in February, speaking about a poster that hangs in his office with the Hebrew words for "Justice, Justice Thou Shalt Pursue". Listen.

Matt Platkin: Never ending tireless pursuit. Pursuit that's full of disappointments and setbacks, incomplete steps, and half measures, but this pursuit of justice is not optional. It is in fact our obligation, and we are instructed that only by pursuing justice in an honest and just manner can we faithfully fulfill that obligation. As attorney general, those words will be my North Star.

Brian Lehrer: Attorney General Matt Platkin. Nancy, did attorney general Platkin open this investigation because of you, because of this podcast?

Nancy Solomon: I do not know. He is new. He was nominated at the very-- I believe, either the first days of February or the very end of January. It could be that it was something he wanted to do when he took office. It is, of course, the timing is curious. I think I'm certainly happy for it. I love that piece of tape and that was the day that he was nominated, his little speech that he gave after the governor introduced him.

What I love about that is its relevance to this case, which is that there is a family that was unable to get justice for their parents. They're a powerful family and a well-connected family. Mark Sheridan, one of the sons, who's the person that I've talked to the most in the family, was the lawyer for the Chris Christie campaign. Chris Christie was the governor at the time that this was going on.

If a family that powerful can't get justice, what does that say about justice in general in the state of New Jersey? What does that mean for average everyday people who somehow are either the victims of crime or get caught up in the criminal justice system? It raises so many troubling questions. What I love about what he said is just that it spoke to the issues about this case so well in my mind that it connects so well because it is a case in which justice hasn't happened and it is going to be difficult.

There is this criticism of prosecutors all over the country about the fact that they don't take on cases that they don't think they'll win and how wrong that is. What I heard in Matt Platkin's words were, "I'm going to take on the cases that have to be taken on for the pursuit of justice, not because I think I can win them and move on to a glorious career doing the next thing."

Brian Lehrer: Chris in Heights Town, you're on WNYC with Nancy Solomon. Hi, Chris.

Chris: Hi, good morning. How are you doing? I may have missed some of the commentary on the documents on the dining room table first. Also, I thought it was the kitchen table, but my question is these people lived in a mansion. You would think that the husband would've had an office. Is it a little suspicious that documents, which might be pertinent to the investigation or something, were, on the night that they were murdered, were left right out there on a dining room table as if almost to throw somebody off or to steer somebody in a certain direction? Is that a little suspicious, or did the guy normally work in an office or did he routinely do all his work on the dining room table?

Nancy Solomon: It's my understanding that John Sheridan did not bring a lot of documents from work home, but he did some. I think the fact that this has raised that question in your mind speaks to the level of suspiciousness that-- The other thing that was on the dining room table were the taxes that he was working on because it was coming up on the October 15th deadline. That gives you-- I think it's a question. Was he leaving this out to be found in the case something happened to him, or is this the place where he just put stuff? His son believes he left it out to be found.

Brian Lehrer: Wow. This is WNYC FM HD and AM New York, WNJT FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are New York and New Jersey public radio and live streaming at wnyc.org. On the New Jersey side of that New York and New Jersey public radio for another few minutes with Nancy Solomon, whose second to last episode of her amazing podcast Dead End: A New Jersey Political Murder Mystery is just out with the breaking news that the attorney general of the state has reopened the case of what was originally deemed a domestic situation, a murder-suicide between husband and wife, and is now being reinvestigated as maybe having been done by somebody outside as maybe having had something to do with a real estate deal with political connections that was on the table, literally, as we were just discussing at the time.

We'll take one or two more phone calls, and then Malcolm Gladwell is going to join us. We're going to talk about his podcast series, Revisionist History, and he's got a Hollywood blockbuster that he's going to try to revise in his new season, and he's going to tell you what it is, or actually, he's going to try to get you to tell us what it is, I'll explain, and have some fun working on that with Malcolm Gladwell, coming up in just a few. Let's get at least one more call in here for Nancy. Catherine in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Catherine.

Catherine: Hey, good morning. I just wanted to thank Nancy for this series but also considering the status of these people and how really none of this was investigated, and the fact that Norcross attorney has contacted her, does she have any personal concern in uncovering what's going on? I'm made a little nervous by all this on her behalf.

Nancy Solomon: Thank you, Catherine. That's very nice of you to look out for me. It's a bit of a daunting thing but no, I'm not that concerned, and, so far, New Jersey reporters haven't gone missing like they do in other parts of the world, so I think it's going to be okay.

Brian Lehrer: I think your high profile helps protect you in this case. If something suddenly happened to you right now with doing this podcast, it would be so suspicious that police would be on-- so I think that's very protective, if that's reassuring at all.

Nancy Solomon: Yes, and we tried to keep it a little bit on the down-low while we were working on it the last year. I felt a certain amount of protectiveness in the fact that it's all there and together. If something were to happen to me, it wouldn't achieve the purpose, so hopefully, that's a protective layer around me.

Brian Lehrer: Episode Seven, the next to last episode is out today, then there's one more episode to come. Just tell us one more thing, Nancy. For people who followed your reporting over the years, they might think, "Oh, Nancy Solomon, she's really concerned about education, she's really concerned about justice in New Jersey, like racial justice, social justice, she's really concerned about housing, things like that." People might not have taken you for like a true crime fanatic. Were you into the medium of true crime before you decided to do your own podcast series around one?

Nancy Solomon: Yes, but I like the ones that are produced in the dark or serial, not so much the ones that are like two people talking about true crime, and I like detective stories and I like detective novels too. I like the puzzle of it, but I also-- The ones that I love, all have in common that they're trying to address something else at the same time, they're using that case as a way to look at other things, so I think In the Dark which Minnesota public radio puts out is probably the best example of that in terms of looking at other social issues that are connected to the crime story.

That was certainly my aim. I had worked on-- In 2019, I had done a bunch of reporting on the tax breaks in Camden and the political machine in South Jersey, and I felt like it was hard for people to really follow that story and it didn't feel like it had a lot of traction, that it was kind of complicated, and so I thought, well, if you can engage people with something that really has a real drama and break down the other stuff and really try to explain it, which is hard to do on the air, but with a podcast, you have so much more time to be able to do that, so that's been the aim.

The aim has been to talk about some of the larger issues about the politics and the political system we have in New Jersey and the criminal justice system, the Attorney General's office, but to get there by telling this one story that people can be engaged with and relate to.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and I certainly learned, for example, a lot more than I knew about where those tax breaks that were meant to revive the Camden economy have gone and who they have really helped and who they have not really touched, so you managed to bake that in to this political murder mystery as one of the underlying currents that's important to so many more people than even knowing who actually killed John and Joyce Sheridan.

We will leave it there with Nancy Solomon, creator of Dead End: A New Jersey Political Murder Mystery. We'll be listening to Episode Seven out today which I haven't heard yet, and Episode Eight when you drop it, what, in two weeks?

Nancy Solomon: No. One week from today.

Brian Lehrer: Okay. Thanks, Nancy.

Nancy Solomon: Thanks, Brian.

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