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Brigid Bergen: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Brigid Bergen from the WNYC in Gothamist newsroom. What's going on at Netflix these days? Well, the company lost subscribers for the first time in a decade. Its stock price has dipped significantly in recent weeks and it cut 150 jobs in early May. They've also poured millions into comedy specials that critics and LGBTQ advocates call transphobic. Last year, hundreds of Netflix employees staged a walkout over a second comedy special from Dave Chappelle, that they said promotes anti-trans bigotry.

By the way, internal figures obtained by Bloomberg suggests that this special actually lost Netflix money. This week a new special from the comic Ricky Gervais is full of jokes many considered to be hurtful and transphobic. We'll get a view on this now from James Factora, Freelance Writer and Reporter, and a contributing writer For Them, an online magazine covering politics and culture from an LGBTQ perspective. Hi, James. Welcome to WNYC.

James Factora: Hi. Thanks so much for having me.

Brigid: Listeners, especially trans listeners, we'll also have time for your suggestions of trans-affirming TV and movies to watch. You can react to Ricky Gervais Netflix special or tell us what trans-affirming movies and TV shows you're watching on Netflix or other platforms instead. Who are the trans comics to watch right now? Call in at 212-433-WNYC or tweet @BrianLehrer. James, let's start with this controversy. What has Netflix released now?

James: Basically, the controversy is like, as you mentioned, a new special from Ricky Gervais, it's called SuperNature. I think really the issue with it is that it's four minutes, it's not even jokes really as much as it is. Just kind of these really tired transphobic talking points that you hear from turfs, or trans exclusionary radical feminists over and over again. Basically, the gist of it is he has this bit, "about trans women" using restrooms and somebody insinuating that they're looking to rape ciswomen in bathrooms which, of course, is a transphobic myth as old as time. It's interesting because, again, it's when you actually read the content, it's not really-- It doesn't really follow type of-

Brigid: Not funny?

James: -structure of a joke. Yes. [laughs] It's not really funny. It's delivered in the form of a standup routine. Of course, because it's like comedy he has the plausible deniability of being like, "Look." In real life because, of course, comedy is totally separate from real life, "I support trans rights, blah, blah, blah," but then it's you can't really divorce the impact of your standup comedy, which whether you like it or not does exist in the real world from the wider impacts that it has.

Brigid: I want to read a tweet that we got from a listener named, Randy. This tweet came in before the segment even began and says, "I've been really pleased by the breath of amazing LGBTQ friendly content out there for my trans son and bisexual daughter. Most recently, they've been thrilled by Our Flag Means Death on HBO Max. Listeners, again, we invite you, call in, give us your suggestions, tweet to us about what you are watching and let us know what you think about either these specials or alternative ways to find some comedy.

James, back to Netflix, this isn't the first time for them after Dave Chappelle's last couple of Netflix comedy specials. People criticize both the comedian and the company for putting out trans-bashing content. Did Netflix appear to do any reevaluation after that?

James: I think there's a two-fold answer to that in that I think as far as changing their programming, no. In fact, I think they just doubled down on what they were putting out. In February, they announced an additional four Chappelle specials that they commissioned. They booked him as a headliner at their comedy festival, Netflix Is A Joke in LA. I don't know. It's interesting also because reports also emerged after the facts that Netflix had been warned by former executives that aligning themselves with trans phobs and people like Dave Chappelle, was going to be a controversial decision and that it would definitely cost them just support from a user base who they've ostensibly been trying to appeal to.

Which leads then to the second answer which is that I know that after the whole controversy over the Chappelle thing, it's like I had noticed that just anecdotally a bunch of media workers who were, I guess, held more marginalized identities like LGBTQ media, digital media workers, media workers of color, had suddenly been recruited by Netflix and were moving over there. Which, of course, as you mentioned, it's interesting because obviously as Netflix has lost subscribers and the price of their stock has come down.

It's with every company, it's the first thing that-- Or the first people who suffer the effects of loss of profit are typically, comms and marketing people which is where these employees were being recruited, the departments that these employees are being recruited to. I find it insidious.

Brigid: It's Variety reported that Netflix published an update to its corporate culture memo for the first time in five years in the wake of these controversies with a new section that explains that the company will not "censor specific artists or voices" even if employees consider the content "harmful" and states, "If you find it hard to support our content breadth, Netflix may not be the best place for you." Which seems to send a pretty stark message to employees within the organization that speaks to some of what you were describing in terms of how it may have felt to be there. Do you know what employees have experienced within the organization itself?

James: I know that immediately in the wake of the release of The Closer, which was, Chappelle's most recent special, I know that there were employees at Netflix who some of whom did actually successfully organize a walkout as you mentioned, but I also know that some of the key figures in that, organizing members of the LGBTQ employee research groups, and stuff like that. They filed a labor charge with the national labor relations board. They were alleging that Netflix had retaliated against for organizing essentially.

Those labor charges were eventually withdrawn. Netflix is a tech company, so they have just all of the resources and legal stuff that frankly LGBTQ people just typically don't have access to. It's just interesting seeing how that shook out and then with these more recent layoffs, I know that people were let go with, I think, two-week severance.

Brigid: Wow.

James: People pointed out very astutely that these layoffs were happening near weeks, before Pride Month. Again, primarily they really hit their, "diversity verticals" where they had social channels or have-- not really sure. Devoted to create-

Brigid: Sure.

James: -trans content and the Latinx community and Asian American content and-- Just diversity verticals. It seems like all of those employees, or many of them have since been let go. I think that says a lot about--

Brigid: Absolutely. Listeners, especially our trans listeners, we might have some time for a few callers if you want to make suggestions for trans-affirming shows to watch, movies, different platforms, or just simply react to the Netflix decision to have another comedy special from a comic who makes jokes that some say are transphobic. Please give us a call, 212-433-WNYC, that's 212-433-9692. James, I think there are people who have defended Netflix, saying something the equivalent to, "Well, this is a streaming platform, there are hundreds of thousands, if not, millions of hours of content, just put something else on." I think those who've criticized Netflix for this latest special and Dave Chappelle would say in response, "What these men are saying really matters." Why does it matter and how would you respond to people who say that, "If you don't it, just turn it off?"

James: I think the thing is, unfortunately, trans people can't really turn it off. I think that when people Chappelle and Gervais say that, "Oh, comedy isn't real life." You hear this pretty frequently from people who think that they use comedy as kind of a get-out-of-jail-free card where they think that the implications of their words-- yes, just that they don't have any real-world implications. It's just like in a year where there have been hundreds of anti-trans bills that have been introduced all around the country that are based exactly on that rhetoric, the notion that trans people are predatory, that they're seeking to groom your children, that they want to gain access to locker rooms and bathrooms to prey on people.

That is what those "jokes" are ultimately aligning with and ultimately supporting. Again, you can say that, "Oh, I support trans rights in real life like all I want," but it's ultimately, I don't know. I think about it in the same way that the alt-right has used comedy and memes under the guise of irony to normalize some of these more hateful and extreme ideas because it is true. I bet these ideas about trans people, they are extreme.

What I'm witnessing personally is just seeing these kinds of fringe ideas about trans people that have typically been relegated to these extremist corners of the internet, make their way to comedy, and to the mainstream and it's when comedians have these specials that have millions of viewers and maybe it's somebody's only idea of what trans people actually are then that is a problem. Again, the fact that these people are getting paid millions of dollars for these comedy specials, while queer and trans people are getting fired is also a problem.

Brigid: We are running out of time. Adam in Bergenfield, New Jersey. Really quickly, welcome to WNYC.

Adam: Hi, how are you doing. Thank you. I just wanted to add real quick that I feel you have presented yourself in a really great and intelligent way to the listeners. It's been a pleasure for me to listen to your conversation, so thank you very much. It's opened my eyes and also my ears to what you're presenting, so thank you.

Brigid: Adam, thank you so much for calling.

James: Thank you.

Brigid: James, a little shout out to you. I want to just note that we did get a lot of tweets during this segment. Some shout-outs for Amazon Prime with some great content for LGBTQI-friendly and affirming. A shout-out for Heartstopper which happens to be on Netflix so some alternatives out there. Thank you so much.

James: Thank you.

Brigid: Thanks for joining us, James. We're going to have to leave it there. James Factora is a freelance writer and reporter and a contributing writer For Them, an online magazine covering politics and culture from the LGBTQ perspective. Thanks, James.

James: Thank you so much for having me.

Brigid: I'm Brigid Bergen, and this is the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Thanks for listening.

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