Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer, WNYC, and let's get back to racial justice and sports. As we referenced briefly at the top of the show and take a closer look. Again, some of the headlines, all three NBA playoff game scheduled for last night did not take place after the Milwaukee Bucks refused to take the court for their game. Milwaukee being in the same state as Kenosha, Wisconsin, where the police killing of Jacob Blake took place. After the Milwaukee team took it stand the league canceled all three games that had been scheduled. Games and the WNBA playoffs were also canceled or postponed. Some games in Major League Baseball and Major League soccer also did not take place. Tennis star Naomi Osaka pulled out of her match in the Western and Southern open semifinals scheduled for today. Today, all these pro sports leagues and teams and players will decide what happens next. Doc Rivers, the Clippers coach talked about the shooting of Jacob Blake in the context of the fear he hears coming from the Republican Convention. We played one clip earlier. Here's more of Doc rivers.

Doc Rivers: All you hear is Donald Trump and all of them talking about the fear. We're the ones getting killed. We're the ones getting shot, we are the ones that were denied to live in certain communities. We've been hung. We've been shot and all you do is keep hearing fear. It's amazing why we keep loving this country and this country is not loving back.

Brian: An emotional LA Clippers coach, Doc Rivers yesterday. Here's the LeBron James speaking on Sunday.

LeBron James: I people get tired of hearing me say it, but we are scared as black people in America. Black men, black women, black kids we are terrified because you don't know. You have no idea. You have no idea how that cop that day left the house.

Brian: You see these big, strong athletes on television. They look invincible. They look tough. There are Doc Rivers and LeBron James talking about fear. With me now, William Rhoden, some of you know him as a long time, New York Times sports columnist. He's now at the ESPN site, The Undefeated he's the author of books, including $40 Million Slaves, The Rise Fall And Redemption Of The Black Athlete, which came out in 2007. He was on this show for that book at that time, as well as city slash game basketball in New York, written with Wall Frazier, which came out this year. Bill, it's always good to have you on the show. Welcome back to WNYC.

William Rhoden: Hey Brian, how you doing, man? It's a pleasure to be reunited as they say. [laughs]

Brian: What's your understanding of how this developed among the Milwaukee Bucks leading to what I think was a surprise to most people outside that they didn't take the court at game time yesterday?

William: Yes. It was a surprise to me, to be honest with you. Clearly, I've been covering this for decades and all that, but I was still surprised. Wow, they're actually going to really do it. I always thought about this in the context of college athletes. As they protest, the lack of compensation or no black coaches no African-Americans in the power of control. I always thought that at some point before a final four-game that these student-athletes would not play. When the Bucks announced that, I was like, "Wow, this is great." [laughs] Particularly, I'm happy it happened in the context of the RNC convention. It was great because this guy hates to share the news cycle. I thought that was great but I think Brian, the next level though, you hear Doc and LeBron and the next level though, you've got the board of governors, the owners meeting. None of this is going to move forward unless you've got these multi-billionaire owners really forming a partnership because this is about power and control. I think the thing that's been missing the owners have been-- say, "Okay guys, you guys could write stuff on your back of the jerseys and we'll let you protest and all that because he wants you down the bubble," but for this to move forward. By the way, the NFL is a good chance that week one is going to be boycotted too. This is spreading like wildfire, but what you need though, Brian is power. You need these multi-billionaire owners to now speak directly to the mayors, to the legislators and you need for them to threaten them. We're going to use our leverage to basically route you out of office. The players are doing what-- they're going as far as they can go in terms of withholding the one thing that people want is entertainment and their services but now you need the people who run the NBA. The people who run the NFL many of whom support POTUS 45. You need for them to now speak power to power and say, "Listen, we have an unusual labor force and that our labor force 80% of our labor force are young Black men and women who come from some of these communities that you were dog-whistling people to say, "It's okay to brutalize them to shoot them and all that." To ask you a question. I think it was great. I was pleasantly surprised. Out of their games today but we're at the point now where you also need the multi-billionaires who run these leagues to speak directly to Mayors and governors and legislatures and lawmakers.

Brian: What influence do you think they could have, for example, I have the statement from the Milwaukee Bucks. I think this came from the players, not the ownership correct me if I'm wrong? But it called on the Wisconsin legislature to, "reconvene after months of inaction and take up meaningful measures to address issues of police accountability, brutality, and criminal justice reform." To educate themselves, take peaceful and responsible action. Then to sorry, this part is to regular citizens to educate themselves, take peaceful and responsible action and remember to vote on November 3rd. That first part was aimed at the legislature which seemed to be exactly the thing you were saying but what would make a legislature like, let's say they're controlled by Republicans do anything different just because the owner of a sports team says to?

William: I wish I could give you a really clear coherent answer. I'm often not in those rooms where are those meetings and those cocktail parties in the Hamptons, where-- No seriously, that's where a lot of stuff gets done. The owner of the Miami Heat who started an organization designed for Black Lives Matter. He had a fundraiser for a POTUS 45 in the Hamptons. What I'm saying Brian, I wish I could tell you what this looks like when rich and powerful people, white by the way prevail on other rich and powerful people to stop it. Whether it's legislatively, whether it's to say, "Hey listen, I'm going to pull my funding from the campaign I was going to support you. Now, I'm not." I don't know what those conversations are like, but I just know that they haven't been had. When they are here, I think you're going to see-- We can't deal with morality anymore. We're not in the space where people listen to morality. This is about money has become the highest value of our society. When money speaks and when money talks, whether it's I'm withdrawing, advertising, I'm pulling out of your campaign, I'm going to support your opponent. I'm going to attack now your Police Union. I'm going to begin to use my leverage to begin to pull money from Police Unions. I think those are the types of things you're talking about systemic stuff. Those are the types of attacks that we need. Those attacks could only be waged by the men and women who run these pro-franchises so that's what I'm saying but I wish I could tell you--

Brian: No, that's a lot. That's a lot. That's really a lot. You're talking about campaign fundraising. You're talking about personal relationships that they could invoke at cocktail parties in the Hamptons or whatever. That's a lot. Now, I don't know if you've seen this Jared Kushner quote yet. I don't know the full context, but on CNBC this morning, the quote that I have looks like he's being sarcastic about this whole thing. You talk about money. Here's the way Jared Kushner put it. The NBA players are very fortunate that they have the financial position where they're able to take a night off from work. Did you get that?

William: Was that today's sanguine? Yes, but, again, I'm going beyond that, I'm going beyond the people who support his father, many of whom are NFL owners and if they decide if they have to have the guts to say, "You know what? Not only are we not supporting you this time, but we're going to be openly against you." Because a lot of our labor force, we're going to speak for the labor force that Jared Kushner mocks. We're getting to the people who pay his salary and who actually support his father and when they say, "Yes, you know what? We're not going to defund the police, we're going to defund you." [laughter] Because a lot of the kids-- That's what makes this whole thing complex, even for NFL and NBA owners in that, they've got a very unusual, like I said, labor force. A lot of the people work for them are these young African-Americans who have brothers and sisters who are caught up in this vice, who've been shot and killed by the police or in the criminal justice system, and many of these owners believe and have said, "We feel it. We know these kids we know their families." The next level, will they have the courage? That's what this is all dependent on. Will these billionaires have the courage to use their power to take on this other power structure?

Brian: Listeners, we can take some phone calls for ESPN's The Undefeated. Columnist William Roden 646-435-7280. Listeners who are sports fans, or anyone else and I wonder if we have any athletes listening right now? Maybe we have some professional athletes listening right now, we'd love to hear from you no matter what sport you're in, or--

William: That's the demographic you need.

Brian: Well, we got some. [laughter] I've had people come on and say, "I listen."

William: When was the last time you got a New York Yankee? [laughs] Let's not go down that. [laughs]

Brian: Yes. Not to say they listen, but maybe let's say they're in Atlanta today so maybe they're not listening. Maybe the next or anyone else 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280. Coaches, college coaches, do you want to see any of these leagues shut down longer-term to put more pressure on government and society as a whole for racial justice or anything you want to say, or ask with William Roden here, 646-435-7280? What does happen next after one night of not playing?

William: That's a great question, and that's the big question. Probably they don't play tonight. There was a big meeting in Orlando yesterday. The Clippers and The Lakers, LeBron James, Lakers and Kawhi Leonard's Clippers voted to just leave the bubble and just to leave. The other teams want to play but then other players were saying, "If the Clippers and the Lakers aren't playing, why should we?" Again, there there is a reality to get back to Kushner's thing that there are a lot of young players or other players that say, "Wow we need his income." We need this income, and that's real. I don't want to be Cavalier and just say, "Stay away, because there are real financial consequences, but you got people who are politicians who really don't watch sports, all they do is look at numbers and they look at distractions, this is a distraction. You've got now these athletes beginning to can eat up media time, and that could be problematic. Again Brian a lot of athletes didn't want to come to the bubble in the first place for precisely this reason. To me, I don't know how you feel about this, Brian? I'm working on a column on the anniversary of the March, and it's, there are consequences. Dr. King has this great speech and they're more than 200,000 people there and a month later, a bomb goes off at the 16th Avenue Baptist Church in Birmingham and kills four little girls. In other words, people saying, "There are consequences to your actions." I think that that's one of the things that these athletes and even owners have to know. The President's already threatened to revoke the antitrust that NFL owners enjoy if they "Don't control their people." There are consequences to these protests. I cautiously say I'd like for them just to end the season, I'd like to see the NFL players band together and call attention to this but there are consequences. I just don't want to say this but I'll leave them, I'll say there are consequences to this.

Brian: Dr. Debra in the Bronx you're on WNYC with Bill Rhoden. Hello, Dr. Debra?

Dr. Debra: Good morning. I want to thank your screener because he put me through twice. I am a physician. Due to the COVID, I'm on Furlough. The one good thing about it for me is that I've been able to listen to you, Brian, and God bless you for what you do.

Brian: I appreciate it.

Dr. Debra: I am in support of these young Black sports players who refuse to perform to stick with their Black and brown brothers and sisters in protesting what has been going on. We see time and time in this country it's money that talks. If you hit the big people in their pocketbook, then things might change. If these players stick together, and Mr. Rhoden and I appreciate what you just said that yes, for some of these young Black men, it's difficult for them to walk out. Yes, there are consequences, but sometimes you have to stand up and fight and take one for the team. If all these young Black players refuse to go out there and perform, it will hit the people at the top who own the franchises. As you suggested and implied, they talk with other people, rich people and things can change that way.

Brian: Thank you so much for your call. We really appreciate it. Let's go next to Sharif in Harlem. You're on WNYC. Hi, Sharif. Thanks for calling.

Sharif: Hey, hello. Thanks, Mr. Lehrer for letting me on. Hello, Mr. Rhoden. How are you?

William: Hey.

Sharif: I had earlier on attended an event for your book at Human Books in Harlem, which is now gone and you had an idea of an organization of Black athletes across the various sports leagues. You would have football players, baseball players, tennis players, all together in one organization. That was your idea, I believe. I wanted to say has there been any moves made toward that, that you know of, or do you see anything like that happening? I also had a comment though, that what I found really disturbing about the thing, it's sounding like friendly criticism of these sorts of ideas, is that this is a lot of top-down organization. You're talking about influencing billionaires or millionaires. I'm old enough to remember when, hey, Willie Mays would play stickball with the kids in Harlem, and Muhammad Ali. That's how I met Muhammad Ali. He was just walking around one night with his brother, with his lady friends. They're really divorced from all of this now. There's a lot of suffering going on down here. There's Black businesses in New York City, whereas it's like 1% now. There's this top-down organization, it's like, "The rich and the super-rich, can I really have the final say, and what about everybody else?" [crosstalk]

Brian: Let me get a response from Bill Rhoden before we leave that.

Sharif: I don't see anything really analogous to say SNCC or other radical organizations who are just on the ground and in the street building.

Brian: Sharif, thank you. Go ahead, doc.

William: A couple of good points. Starting with your last point, Willie Mays was playing stickball and that kind of romance. That's when you didn't have that many Black folks. Then I remember Willie Mays first couldn't live in white neighborhoods either. What's happened now is that athletes particularly in their '80s and '90s, they started making so much money and it happened to Black athletes on college campuses too. That they were basically isolated from the rest of the student population. The millionaire athletes began to be isolated from the Black community. I lived in Harlem, they used to live in Harlem. That didn't happen now, but I think that what you're seeing now is with a lot of young athletes, they've been victimized by law enforcement. Who basically outside the stadiums, all they see, all these law enforcement people see is Black skin. They don't see that you're like LeBron James. "Oh, you're LeBron James' a son?" I think that with a lot of this police violence, a lot of these young players have had their friends locked up, their friends shot, their friends brutalized. They realize that you know what? They realize what's always been the reality is that you are Black, you're Black. No matter how you are deluded by the power structure into making you think you're different, that's only for the power structure's benefit. You are just a Black man or a Black woman, and you will be brutalized just like anyone else. I think that's why you see this outrage from Doc Rivers. You see this outrage from LeBron James. All these athletes who now are having sons and daughters, who are now 18, 19, 20-years-old. I think we're coming back to that, but I do want to just reinforce the point that none of this is going to go forward, Brian, until you get the multi-billionaires and their cronies who own these franchises, and who run these franchises to use their power and leverage to not enforce but threaten. We got to get to the point now of threats because that's where we are. That's what people understand. You can kneel and all that, but they understand threats.

Brian: And power.

William: Yes, threats, and power. Again, will they have the courage? Even if they support the Republican Party, will they have the power to say, "This is beyond politics? This is a question of morality?" I know I just said that they don't listen to morality [laughs] but I think that's what's got to happen.

Brian: This is WNYC-FM HD in AM New York, WNJT-FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcom, and WNGO 90.3 Toms River. We are New York and New Jersey Public Radio, where we're going to finish up with a few more minutes, just a few with Bill Rhoden from ESPN's The Undefeated, as we talk about what's going on in pro sports and racial justice. I want to take one more phone call for you in a second, but I also want to make sure that we give some props here to the WNBA, which has taken a leadership role. Can you talk about that a little bit?

William: Yes, actually, Brian, I think the women in the WNBA actually are the reason why the players in NBA have taken action. Because remember, they have been for almost the last 10 years, the women in the WNBA have been taking a lead on this social justice issue. Maya Moore was in Minnesota actually left the team so she could help free an inmate who was unjustly sentenced. She actually helped the sentence be reduced and thrown out. They started wearing t-shirts in Atlanta. There was a Republican senator who's co-owner of the Atlanta team. She makes very disparaging comments about Black Lives Matter. The WNBA players, not just in Atlanta but throughout the league, began wearing t-shirts supporting her opponent. The women in the WNBA have really led the charge. Into a larger question of sexism and how those of us who are recovering sexist, don't properly support those women. I'm glad you brought that up because they have been so powerful and so persistent as Black women, in general, have been. They've been actually been the backbone of this resistance.

Brian: We'll see what happens in various sports. Women's BasketBall leading the way. Men's Basketball the, NHL did not cancel any games last night. Obviously, the overwhelmingly white player population. They did have moments of reflection before some of the games. We'll see if the demographic makeup of the NHL keeps them out of it. I was a little surprised to see baseball cancel three games because baseball has been so apolitical through all this but that happened. One more call, Nick in Stockbridge, Massachusetts. You're on WNYC with William Rhoden. Hello, Nick?

Nick: Good morning, Brian. Good morning, Bill. How are you doing?

Brian: Good.

Nick: Building up a football team based in college. I wanted to just raise two quick points. First of all, what the woman have done has been phenomenal. Once again, we are following them. I don't know whether Nat Turner and Denmark Vesey and Gabriel Prosser followed a woman but I'm sure there was a strong woman that each one of them too. Herschel Walker spoke at the convention the other night. Herschel signed a contract with the New Jersey generals which Donald Trump didn't know because he couldn't buy NFL team because frankly, his finances didn't fit at the NFL investigation. The US Football League, the new league was going to use Herschel Walker in the same way that the AFL has used Billy Canon when he didn't sign with the Los Angeles Rams back in 1960. That Heisman Trophy winner who delivered this new lead to prosperity. It didn't work out, but Herschel Walker is now paying back and Trump borrowed the money from Bankers Trust to buy the franchise rights to the New Jersey Generals. He didn't pay the money back but Herschel's money was guaranteed. Herschel, simply paying back the money that he was given, Herschel could have moved into one of Trump's buildings a few years earlier. Here we have a plantation guy saying, "I grew up in the south. I know racism when I see it." He was given a chance to play football, a multi-million dollar contract, but the man who owned the team that he was playing for engaged him had a racist policy, his houses in Queens or Brooklyn. They would not allow Herschel Walker with all the money he'd given them to move in. My last point is I was on a golfing trip two years ago in North Carolina. A woman at a sub-service gasoline station had a car that she was having trouble getting the guest angle, but I knew the model of the car and I was able to help her and we talked. She said, "You're down here to play golf?" I said, "Yes." " You look like you might have been a football player at one point?" I said, "Yes, I was." "I want you to meet my husband." It turned out her husband owned an NFL franchise and I won't say which one but they invited me to lunch. During the course of lunch, he and I talked about the rule that requires NFL franchises to interview a Black candidate if there's a vacancy for a head coaching job. The Rooney Rule. Rooney was a great guy in terms of making them come to the table. During the course of the lunch, we talked about the NFL, we talked about the Rooney Rule. The husband said to me, he says, "Rowan, the difficulty that people like you have is seeing our perspective." I said, "What do you mean?" He says, "All the people in this club are billionaires, not like Donald Trump. They're really billionaires." He says, "When you ask us about Black people in management, we see Black people as board members, but we don't see them as running our billion-dollar corporations." He said, "You can have the interview, a Black guy for CEO for my Corporation, which I'm chairman as the majority stockholder, but until people like me actually begin to see Blacks in their role, you're going to have a long road to hoe."

Brian: Nick, I'm going have to cut in because we're running out of time. Bill, I won't make you describe your own college football career that apparently Nick was a witness to and a participant in, but give us one last thought about anything that he said?

William: I think the takeaway from that and Nick is great is the power of control. Brian, many of these organizations, the NBA in sports media and professional sports, probably one of the most racist pillars in our society. He's absolutely right, in that although when they're talking about Black Lives Matter, these organizations have to look inside because in terms of Black coaches, Black people in power or control, there's a lot that they have to be. I don't think it's that complex. You just simply do it. There's a lot to be said. I'm happy that the players began this dialogue, but to get back to the very beginning, we're going to really need the multi-billionaires to step up and have courage if we're going to really carry this further.

Brian: William Rhoden, Some of you read him for a long time when he was in New York Times sports columnist. He's now with the ESPN site The Undefeated. He's the author of books, including $40 Million Slaves, The Rise Fall and Redemption of the Black Athlete which came out in 2007 as well as City/Game Basketball in New York written with Wall Frazier, which came out this year. Bill, thank you so much.

William: Brian, it's always a pleasure.

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