Brian Lehrer: WNYC. What happens now after Senator Joe Manchin announced he is a firm no on President Biden's human infrastructure or Build Back Better bill as written? I don't just mean what happens politically, though we'll certainly talk about that. What happens to people immediately affected? Because the bill wasn't just about benefits that would be new, it's also about the temporary Child Tax Credit that will expire that's already been credited with reducing child poverty in America by as much as half for this year.

Now, Manchin indicated and political analysts are saying there is still a chance for specific pieces of Build Back Better that he supports to get through the Senate early next year despite zero Republican support, that includes a version of a Child Tax Credit. We'll talk about that now, what can be done on voting rights, an increasingly urgent democratic party priority with the democracy threatening laws being passed in some Republican states. They need Joe Manchin for that too to agree to at least a voting rights exception to the filibuster, and we'll talk about what else President Biden could do on either of these things without Congress.

Oh, yes, there is also inflation, and the supply chain crime and criminal justice reform, and Omicron all competing for Washington's attention. We'll get a take on all of this from one of the most progressive members of Congress, I think it's fair to say, New York Democrat Jamaal Bowman. Bowman's 16th congressional district in New York basically includes all of the north Bronx and all of southern Westchester. Congressman, always good to have you on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Jamaal Bowman: Thank you, sir. Good to be on with you. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Before we get to politics and next steps, can we start with the Child Tax Credit and what will actually happen at the end of the year?

Jamaal Bowman: The last payment has already gone out, which is very, very scary, as we both know. That is why it was imperative for us to pass Build Back Better before the end of this year to continue those payments at least for a year. My office and many others were trying to make the Child Tax Credit permanent. We had legislation that would hold fossil fuel companies accountable to paying into cleaning up the climate, which could have helped support the Child Tax Credits permanency. We also had legislation to tax unrealized capital gains of 40%, which could have helped to make it permanent.

Unfortunately, we have one member of our own party stopping progressive legislation and continuing to support a economic structure that is toxic and destructive to our democracy. Last payments have gone out. What's also scary is we have student loan payments picking back up in February and many tens of thousands in my district still not back to work. Like you said, a lot of things to pay attention to and a lot of things to fix as we go into the new year.

Brian Lehrer: Is there any chance in Congress for a simple extension just of the Child Tax Credit for the moment? Don't many Republicans also support the Child Tax Credit?

Jamaal Bowman: Yes, there is a chance for a simple extension. Many Republicans do, however, they've spent most of their time this year obstructing every piece of legislation that Democrats have put forth. They're now the party of Trump, they're now the party of the big lie, and very rarely do you see them come on board with any legislation, especially something like this, where that mindset that this creates entitlement, this hurts the economy, that welfare queen talking point that has now evolved into, "I think the parents will use the money to buy drugs," that's still pervasive throughout Congress, but yes, it's absolutely possible to do that and I'm sure we're going to be exploring that even before we get back in January.

Brian Lehrer: I see some calls are already coming in for you. Listeners, if you have a question for Congressman Jamaal Bowman, we can take a few at 212 433 WNYC, 212 433 9692 in our limited time with him this morning or you can tweet a question @brianlehrer, that's really efficient. Senator Manchin has named a number of specific economic concerns with Build Back Better that I actually want to get your reaction to, if you're going to build public support in West Virginia or elsewhere to pressure Manchin or any Republicans to flip on new versions of this in the new year.

He wants the Child Tax Credit that we were just talking about to be means-tested so it actually goes to the family's most in need and saves the government money for other things in the bargain. In a way, that's a progressive notion, right? No tax breaks for wealthier people. Your view on that?

Jamaal Bowman: The Child Tax Credit as currently constructed expands who it provides the credit to. It actually wildly disproportionately benefits people who were kept out of the program prior to the American Rescue Plan. We've been able to include millions of additional children. What Manchin fails to understand is working-class families; teachers, educators, nurses, et cetera, who also benefit from this absolutely need this, especially during the age of COVID to keep up with bills, to keep food on the table, et cetera.

The idea of a means test becomes a slippery slope, where historically, a small minority of people end up benefiting from something like this while many millions more who need it do not get it. That's why myself and the progressive caucus did not support a means test.

The other thing I wanted to mention about this is, what we've done with the American Rescue Plan and this Child Tax Credit, we've lift 50% of children out of poverty and we want to continue that. Joe Manchin hasn't submitted any other plan that would have that level of impact, that would lift 50% of children out of poverty. It's absolutely needed, as we mentioned. In a place like West Virginia, West Virginia has the seventh-highest poverty rate for children in the country. This is something that would benefit his own constituents, so why wouldn't he support it?

Brian Lehrer: One other one, Manchin is concerned about the national debt, and in stats that I saw on MSNBC this morning, various things in the 10-year plan are fully funded in the first five years but not in the second five years, so that the universal pre-K program would increase the debt by $750 billion by the end of the decade, Obamacare expansion by another 400 billion, the Child Tax Credit itself by 1.6 trillion

compared to today, total extra debt around 2.8 trillion over the 10 years. That's from an MSNBC reading of the numbers this morning, not Fox News or something. Why is that okay?

Jamaal Bowman: I need to look at that report. I didn't see that report, but according to the White House and according to the House leadership's report, and according to the CBO score, this is not only fully paid for over 10 years, but it actually deducts from the deficit over 10 years. I need to look at that report that you're referring to, but according to our CBO score, which is what Manchin and moderates called for, this is fully paid for through corporations paying their fair share, wealthy elite paying their fair share, and through other means, including IRS enforcement as well. I got to take a look at that report you're referring to, I didn't see that this morning.

Brian Lehrer: There's pushback from not your district, but south of you in the Bronx, I believe, on the childcare tax credit effects at all. Jim in the south Bronx, you are on WNYC with Congressman Jamaal Bowman. Hello.

Jim: Good morning, Brian. Thank you for taking my call. My question/statement is the following. I'd like to really question this idea about these tax credits actually lifting children out of poverty. My view is that these kinds of policies subsidize people to live in poverty. What I would like to see from people who think of themselves as progressive is a long-term industrial policy that will create the skillsets for high-wage manufacturing.

By way of example, for instance, my information is that there are a number of foreign companies that are actually doing the second avenue subway with highly trained workers operating complex digging machining and that sort of thing, not college graduates, but people who have a very high level of skills that enable them to acquire and maintain high wages. I think that's the issue, and I get very frustrated with progressives for not addressing that.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Jim. Congressman, briefly on this.

Jamaal Bowman: Well, it's not one or the other, it's both. There are families who absolutely need the support to be lifted out of poverty in the short term because they are dramatically drowning under health care costs, housing costs, childcare costs, travel costs, and many other costs. That absolutely needs to be done in addition to continued workforce development. As workforce legislation that is a part of Build Back Better, that's why it needs to pass, and it's an equitable part of Build Back Better. The workforce development will be targeted in historically marginalized communities.

There's also separate workforce legislation as a part of the appropriations process that will continue to focus on workforce development. I myself as vice chair of the Ed and Labor Committee and chair of the Ed Labor in Small Business Task Force for the Progressive Caucus, I'm working currently with Eric Adams, David Banks, Betty Rosa, and others to ensure that our high school kids are on track to work within the 21st-century economy because our education system for so long has been rooted in

the agrarian age and it's 100 years old, so it needs to be evolved as well.

That work is being done. That's work that I've always done and continue to push, but it's yes/and, it's not either/or when you look at the levels of inequality that exists in our country today.

Brian Lehrer: Do you like David Banks, by the way, the incoming school's chancellor? Do you know him? Because there's always progressive suspicion about Eric Adams progressive wing suspicion, so it'll be interesting to people to hear your take on that incoming school's chancellor.

Jamaal Bowman: Well, yes. Keep the suspicion out, keep the conversation going, keep the pressure going, but I have to tell you, I have been in consistent contact with both Mayor Adams and Chancellor Banks. They always take my calls or call me back and we always have great conversations around my ideas in terms of what should be happening in our schools. One thing I can say at this point is they are listening, they are engaged. They know what we've been doing for far too long hasn't worked. They know that we have been over-testing our kids, for example, and not focused enough on critical thinking and project-based learning. Those conversations are happening.

I've known David for at least a decade and I'm familiar with his work at Eagle Academy. There's a place for optimism here, but again, we got to continue to push to make sure charter schools do not take over our city because I do not think and research shows that that is not the way to go for our kids.

Brian Lehrer: By the way listeners, later in the show, we'll do a roll call segment with our reporter Brigid Bergin on the five women that Mayor Adams has appointed to the five deputy mayor positions. Those announcements coming yesterday. Five deputy mayor positions, all five will be filled by women. We'll go down a very quick bullet point list of who these people are and what they've done and what we might expect from them and what their portfolios would be with Brigid, coming up later in the show. Izzy in the Bronx you're on WNYC with Congressman Jamaal Bowman. Hi, Izzy.

Izzy: I'm from the Riverdale and the Congressman-

Brian Lehrer: You're in Congressman Bowman's district?

Izzy: Yes, I am. Okay. First of all, I disagreed with the Congressman back in August when he wanted to tie the Build Back Better legislation with the infrastructure bill. I think it was a mistake. I think had we passed the infrastructure bill early, we could have seen some good results by now and that would avoid the Democratic stance on other things as well, but that's water under the bridge. I wrote to the Congressman, I understand his point of view and I'm very appreciative that he actually responds to me unlike his predecessor that always ignored my emails.

The main thing I want to talk about now is the future. I've been trying to push this idea on our senators and I wrote to the Congressman about it also, to break up the bill into its constituent parts and forget about the reconciliation, send it over to the Senate, but don't just let it evaporate before it's brought up. I'm old enough to

remember real filibusters. Eventually, if the bills are popular enough, and senators are getting up there reading-- I don't think they have [unintelligible 00:15:15] anymore or whatever they have, wasting time, their constituents are eventually going to try to pressure them into passing those pieces of legislation that are very-

Brian Lehrer: Izzy, I want to leave it there. You put a very interesting question on the table. I apologize for cutting in, but we only have a few minutes left with Congressman Bowman. Congressman, what do you think about that suggestion for moving forward from your constituent?

Jamaal Bowman: One of the problems is Republicans are complete obstructionists, so they are not going to move forward a legislation that is put forward by Democrats. A bipartisan process, as we saw with the infrastructure framework, take several months to make a reality, particularly in this climate of the Trump Republicans that currently occupy Congress. That would be hard to do. None of the bills would have a chance of passing because we wouldn't get the 60 vote majority that we would need to pass them.

This is why we need to get rid of the filibuster and this is why we need to continuously work around the filibuster, because what we're seeing here, and this is something else I want to mention, over 80% of the bills that we send from the house to the Senate do not move at all. We have to pass Build Back Better, yes, but we also need to pass voting rights legislation, we also have to pass the Protect our Democracy Act that recently passed the House, we have to pass immigration reform, gun reform, and we still haven't moved on George Floyd or the Women's Health Protection Act.

There are so many bills right now in the Senate that are not moving because we do not have a supermajority in the Senate. If we were to break these bills up, we would run into that problem multiple times over with these bills. I support the reconciliation process. We have to get one senator on board. He came with an alternate proposal, so we'll see what that looks like going forward. It's easier to get one or two senators than to try to get 10 Republicans to support breaks of these bills.

Brian Lehrer: Again, reconciliation is the process in the Senate that lets you get around the filibuster if it's a budget bill.

[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Can I just follow up on what you said about that? Because Manchin does seem to indicate he would be open to some smaller pieces of the pie next year before the election year gets into full swing and everyone in the house and a third of the Senate have to run on whatever the reality is by then. Do you see a path that you're also willing to endorse when you would prefer something much more transformative?

Jamaal Bowman: Well, there was some reporting that Manchin had a counter-proposal, a 1.8 trillion, that had a lot of the same provisions as this bill. I would love to see the details of that bill before making a decision. I want to go back to

something to call a mention about, if we would have passed BIF months ago, we would have been further along with BBB. What I want the listeners to know is there have been lobbyists spending record numbers of-

Brian Lehrer: BIF is the Bipartisan Infrastructure Bill that did pass. Go ahead.

Jamaal Bowman: That's right. There have been lobbyists spending record amounts of money to kill BBB this entire year. They've been trying to gut it and kill it and they have gutted it tremendously. Now as we speak today, it is actually dead. Even back then, the Manchin, Sinema, and the lobbyists, particularly the pharmaceutical lobby, did not want that bill to move forward. The only reason why we had any leverage in making the bill what it was is because we did not move on the infrastructure bill. I just want to make that point.

Brian Lehrer: I know you got to go. Congressman Jamaal Bowman, who represents New York 16th congressional district, basically all of the north Bronx and southern Westchester. Happy holidays and we look forward to continuing having you to come on. Listeners really appreciate when you do in the new year. Thank you so much.

Jamaal Bowman: Happy holidays. God bless you. Thank you.

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