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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. One follow-up from our segment with the Brooklyn Borough President, just before the news that I thought I would pass along for all you car owners out there who live in neighborhoods with a lot of rats, because that came up from a caller who said rats chew into the engine of her car and the Brooklyn Borough President said, "Yes, that actually happens." They can chew through stuff and mess up your car.

Listener tweeted during the news, there are peppermint and cinnamon oil sprays you can use in engine compartments to deter rats. They also work in the home if you have mice. I looked it up online during the news and yes, that's a thing. That's not to say it's the only solution or the best solution, whatever, but for you car owners out there, if you live with rats in your neighborhood, I thought I would just pass that along as a little public service.

Now, we'll take a closer look at what was probably the central policy proposal from Governor Hochul's state of the state speech and get reaction from the Nassau County Executive Bruce Blakeman, and from some of you on the phones. We'll also touch on the Congressman George Santos's festival of lies about his life saga with Blakeman who as county executive is the most powerful Republican in Nassau County, and he is now calling on Santos to resign from Congress.

Mostly, this will be about housing and the governor's plan not to suggest but to require certain development goals in New York City and the suburbs of New York City. She actually wants the state to be able to overrule local zoning decisions like how much density an area can have. Newsday this morning says some local officials are expressing concern so we'll see what Blakeman says.

We'll start with a clip of the governor from the speech and then talk to the county executive. This clip is about two minutes. I think it's worth it. It was really the policy heart of the speech and we pick it up as the governor begins to lay out the problem. You'll hear her sing aloud Nassau and a few other counties by name.

Governor Hochul: Over the last decade, New York State has created 1.2 million jobs. That's great but only built 400,000 houses. Many forces led to this state of affairs but front and center, our local land use policies that are the most restrictive in the nation. Through zoning and local communities are able to hold enormous power to block growth between full bans on multifamily housing and onerous zoning and approval processes, they make it difficult, almost impossible to build new homes.

I spent 14 years in local government, many of you came through that route as well. Our community had a citizen-driven master plan that allowed for targeted housing and economic growth while preserving green space. I know this can be done, but it hasn't been. Between 2010 and 2018, Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Putnam counties, each granted fewer housing permits per capita than virtually all the suburban counties in Massachusetts, Connecticut, Southern California, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Northern Virginia.

When it comes to New York City, other metro areas are creating housing at two to four times the rate that we are. Boston rate is almost double, Washington DC, triple, Seattle, four times. With less supply, demand dries up prices and who gets squeezed? Young families starting out, middle-income families looking to move up, low-income families.

Brian Lehrer: Governor Hochul from her state of the state address on Tuesday, lightly edited just for efficiency. With me now is the Nassau County Executive, Bruce Blakeman. County Executive, thanks for coming on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Bruce Blakeman: Thank you, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: How much do you agree with the governor's description of the problem and her proposal for fixing it as it affects Long Island?

Bruce Blakeman: Well, I think we have to have a conversation with the governor because I think it's a much more complicated issue than the governor is portraying. First of all, let's talk about Nassau and Suffolk County, virtually Long Island. We are an island, we have a finite amount of land. Right now, we already have areas that have overcrowding and terrible traffic issues. I don't think we can just say that because we're not building as much housing as other regions, that we're not doing a good job, it's just that we don't have as much land.

I think that if the governor wanted to focus on additional housing, north of Westchester, there's plenty of land. There's plenty of open spaces for housing but on Long Island, we have a very limited amount of land, that's number one. Number two, you have to look at market demand. Basically, New York State has a problem that I think needs to be addressed. That is that people are moving out of the state in record numbers, because of the crime issues we have, and because of the taxes being too high.

I think one of the ways that we can attract people here is to concentrate on making safer communities, and also more affordable communities. That's number two. The third thing I would say is that I'm not against development in my county, but I think it has to be smart growth. That's why I say it's complicated and I certainly would be willing to talk to the governor and her staff about this. I'm doing things here that I think are smart, and at the same time accomplished some of the goals that the governor wants.

Brian Lehrer: Let me, [crosstalk] go ahead. You go.

Bruce Blakeman: Yes. Specifically transportation-oriented housing I think it's smart because we have properties adjacent to transportation hubs and if we build housing there, and we mix use the projects so that there is also a retail component, then people don't have to get in their cars, and we don't have the traffic problems. I would certainly be willing to sit down with the governor and her economic advisors and housing advisors and talk about some smart housing that makes sense for Long Island, but this is a very diverse state.

It's like seven states in one and what's good for one county may not be good for another. I think that the governor has to really focus in on some of the issues that we have on Long Island that may not be similar to other regions.

Brian Lehrer: That's really interesting. It sounds like there is the potential for some common ground here. I remember when you were on the show last February, we actually talked about this topic way before Governor Hochul, a year before Governor Hochul gave that state of the state address. You said you were a big proponent of transportation-oriented housing, and that you've done it in your district, in Hempstead which you described as America's largest township.

You said that you felt that was a way to attract young people, and also to keep our senior citizens who were looking to downsize. How much common ground is there in terms of the potential numbers of new units of housing apartments or single-family homes that the governor wants to see billed because she did lay out numerical goals?

Bruce Blakeman: I think basically, it's not a good idea to do planning for Long Island from Albany. I think that they call it local land use because local people should have a big say on what is built around them, and that's been fundamental for years. I don't think we have to ship that policy. I think we can accomplish some of the governor's goals by sitting down and talking about what is really a complex issue and an issue that is not universal to the whole state.

Again, if you're building in a northern County. It's different issues than we have here on Long Island. I'm open to that conversation with the governor and her team and I would certainly be happy to talk to them about accomplishing some of her goals, so long as it's consistent with our suburban values.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take some phone calls, especially if you're on Long Island, or in the northern suburbs. Are you for or against Governor Hochul's housing construction goals for your counties or more specifically for your town, especially more density around train stations as a key to housing affordability in the whole Greater New York City area? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433- 9692, or do you have any questions for Nassau County Executive Bruce Blakeman about that or anything related?

Maybe George Santos or George Santos Question 2. If you like, as Blakeman is calling on Santos to resign, a rare break from a member of anyone's own party from one's own county. Although it turns out Santos may really have lived in his sister's place in Suffolk according to reporting, but that residency issue would actually not have barred him from office. I don't believe. I think you actually don't have to live in a congressional district you represent, as I understand the law, but your housing and zoning calls primarily for Nassau County Executive, Bruce Blakeman.

Hello your 516s and your 914s and your 845s. Call us here at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet your question or your comment @BrianLehrer. County Executive, how do you count the coming and going from Long Island or from New York as a whole? You talked about out-migration. Certainly, Congressman Zeldin ran for governor a lot on that, people leaving New York who said it because of crime.

He run out also because of taxes and for other reasons, and yet, we have this problem of not enough housing for the people who are here and the people who are coming. The governor acknowledged in the State of the State that there is somewhat of an out-migration problem, but also people are coming and people are staying and we don't have enough housing for the people expected to be here. How do you put those two things together to make housing policy?

Bruce Blakeman: I don't think you do it universally. I don't think you just say what's good for one region is good for all regions. I can tell you right now that the people who live in Nassau and Suffolk County, Republican, Democrat, and independent voters are very, very concerned about Albany dictating land. Rather than do that, I think that it would be a good opportunity for the governor to have a conversation with me, with members of my county legislature, with the towns, the cities, and the villages of Nassau County.

I'm sure that my colleague, Steve Bellone in Suffolk County would also want to weigh in on that because, again, we are unique here. We don't have expansion. We have an ocean to the south and a great body of water called the Long Island Sound to the north, and we are surrounded by water.

Brian Lehrer: Bellone came out for the governors. I did read in Newsday that Bellone came out for the governor's plan, Bellone to Democrat or Republican. Maybe that has something to do with it for both of you, but he seemed down with it.

Bruce Blakeman: I'm not sure that he agrees with everything in the governor's plan. You'd have to ask him about that, but I know that Suffolk County residents have expressed concern about what type of developments these would be and what communities and what's the density and what's the height. I do think those issues exist in Suffolk County, but I'll focus now just on Nassau County.

I can tell you that the mayors of the villages and the cities and the town supervisors are quite alarmed, but rather than just hold the fire alarm, let's get together with the governor and her staff. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about things like transportation-oriented housing. Let's talk about the fact that we don't have the land that other communities have.

I think the Governor has to understand that people move to Nassau and Suffolk County because they don't want density.

That's why they moved out of the City of New York. Most of the people that moved to Nassau County have migrated from the Bronx, Queens, and Brooklyn, and they don't want density. I think that if we have a constructive conversation, we could potentially help the governor with her concerns, and at the same time meet the concerns of the residents of Nassau County.

Brian Lehrer: To some people, resistance to more density around train stations or more development goals generally is about race and class at least to some degree. We already have a listener who tweeted in response to what you said a couple of minutes ago about suburban values, calling that coded racist language. People in private homes--

Bruce Blakeman: That's absolutely ridiculous. I'm not even going to entertain that. The fact of the matter is that Nassau County has the largest growing Hispanic community probably in the region. We have a huge Hispanic population that's growing, we have a huge Asian population that's growing, we have a significant African American population. Nassau County is a snapshot of the United States of America, and we have all people.

It's very diverse based on race, religion, ethnicity, and that is nonsense. The people that are talking the most about this, quite frankly, are coming from some of those communities that you may consider minority communities because they left Queens and Brooklyn and the Bronx because of overcrowding, and they want to live in a less dense area. It's not a racial thing. It's not an ethnic thing. That is complete nonsense and I completely reject that out of hand.

Brian Lehrer: Let me ask you one follow-up on that, which is that people in private homes in more affluent suburbs often don't want apartment buildings because the buildings bring in lower-income New Yorkers than they are, which is often also more Black and Latino New Yorkers who the more affluent and more white homeowners associate with problems. Is that a fair characterization in your opinion?

Bruce Blakeman: No, no. I do not think that's a fair characterization. I don't see any proposals to build low-income housing on Park Avenue in Manhattan. I think basically, you have communities that are more affluent, and they are open under fair housing standards that are enforced by the federal government, and that I endorse that if you got the money to live there, whether you're Black, white, Hispanic, or whatever, you should be able to live in whatever community you want if you can afford it.

There are people that can live in more bucolic and less dense communities because the housing is more expensive. That shouldn't be based on race, religion, ethnicity. That should be based on whether or not you can afford to live there, so I reject that out of hand. I think that people who interject race and bigotry into this argument, I think they're just looking for an excuse to put forth an agenda that doesn't exist.

Brian Lehrer: Kelly in Baldwin, you're on WNYC with Nassau County Executive Bruce Blakeman. Hi, Kelly.

Kelly: Hi, thanks. I'm a first-time caller, longtime listener. I live in Baldwin where we have a planned development for some housing near the train station, which is I believe, desperately needed. I think it's going to be a fabulous addition to Baldwin because I grew up in Baldwin, and most of my friends we can't afford to live here now. We want to live near our parents. We're starting to have kids. We want to send our kids to the schools we went to, and I think it's going to be a great thing to add more housing.

I think the biggest problem and I think the biggest pushback in Baldwin against the housing project is transportation. A lot of the density comes from the feeling that there's just a lot of cars on the road. There's no walkability involved right now. You literally can't walk anywhere without feeling like you're going to get run over by a car. I think that if we were able to get some bike lanes, and if there was better buses and a little bit more walkability to the public transportation, I think that it would lessen the feeling of density while also allowing more people to come and live here and take part in this fantastic town.

Brian Lehrer: Kelly, thank you. County Executive, any reaction to that?

Bruce Blakeman: Yes. Kelly, I think you make some good points, but one of the things that you talked about was affordability. When you put a housing project in any community, you also have to factor in what is that going to do to the school district. Is it going to add a substantial amount of new students? Can the schools handle it? Are the schools big enough? Do they have enough teachers? Do they have the budget for it?

One of the problems on Long Island is that school taxes are very high, and we have to factor that into any new housing as to whether or not that would increase the homeowners' burden of the people who already live there. By the way, Kelly, I did vote for that project when I was on the Hempstead town board because I thought it was a good idea. I think you raised some good points, but I also think that you got to factor in the fact that if we want to keep it affordable, we've got to make sure that we don't significantly impact the school districts which would increase school taxes.

Brian Lehrer: That's an interesting tension that you lay out there. Is there a formula? Is there a way to figure out since schools are funded by property taxes? More students means more of a total tax burden. At the same time, the shortage of housing is the essential thing that drives up the price of housing. Building more housing brings down the average price, but I hear you about the property taxes, how do you strike that balance?

Bruce Blakeman: Again, I think you just demonstrated that it's complicated and that's why you just can't do things willy-nilly, you have to actually drill down, come up with a plan. Again, as I said earlier in the show, it's about smart growth. Get smart people around the table, figure out what you want to accomplish. You may not accomplish as much as you want but you can make a material difference, but you've got to look at all the factors.

You've got to look at the school districts. You got to look at transportation. You got to look at traffic. You got to look at what the surrounding community wants. You just can't force thing down people's throat, that's not the American way. I don't think we should do things that way.

Brian Lehrer: Lori in Port Washington, you're on WNYC. Hi, Lori.

Lori: Hi, it's nice to speak with you. I think this is completely not realistic conversation because first of all, most of the main street areas in Nassau County that I'm familiar with, have a lot of traffic during the day now. There's very little parking at train stations even though people are working at home more. People need a car to get to schools. They need a car to get to the post office.

They need a car to go to the doctor. This was built as a suburb. It wasn't built to be part of a city, so it's completely different. Now, if you think you're going to have development where people don't want a car, I don't even understand how you could say that. Everybody's going to want a car to get to the post office, to get food that they like, to get to the doctor, to go to the beach in the summer. How are people going to get around out here without a car?

You're only going to add more cars and more traffic, and then people are going to want to drive around because they have a car. This is totally ridiculous. This is called the suburbs for a reason. It means it's not part of a city.

Brian Lehrer: Lori, thank you very much. County Executive, it depends where perhaps. I have very good friends who live in apartment buildings in Mineola and in Wantagh, they don't have cars and they worked in the city. They would walk to do their shopping and take the Long Island Rail Road into Manhattan where both of them worked, or one of them was in Queens but took the LIRR, didn't own a car, so it is possible, right?

Bruce Blakeman: I think Lori hits the nail on the head. I think that basically Nassau County and Suffolk County do depend heavily on car traffic. I know people that will not give up their cars, but there is a small percentage of people who want an environment where they can walk around and they can do their shopping on foot, by bicycle. I think we just have to be smart in the way that we develop those communities and realize that whatever we do, we can't kill the suburban character of Nassau County.

Again, I think that the governor and her staff need to come down here. We need to have that conversation because if you are talking about anything that would jeopardize the suburban character of the county, I think there'll be a tremendous backlash. Again, it's not one size fits all, this is a very diverse state. You have the north country, you have the southern tier, you have Western New York, you have Central New York, you've got the Hudson Valley, the five boroughs, and Nassau and Suffolk County, and they're all very different. I don't think it should be all sizes are the same, everything fits in the same shoe. They don't.

Brian Lehrer: Also to follow up on both of those caller's infrastructure concerns, the governor proposed a $250 million infrastructure fund and 20 million for planning as municipalities look to meet their housing goals. I'm curious if you think there's a fundamental negotiation here over money that will lead you and others in the New York City suburbs to yes on some of these things.

Bruce Blakeman: No. I think they're two separate issues that are interrelated because obviously anytime that you have any kind of development, whether it's retail, commercial, or housing, you have to consider infrastructure. They are related but they're two separate issues. We have infrastructure issues. One of the things I want to discuss with the governor as well is the fact that this is a mature suburb as is Suffolk County.

For better or worse, there wasn't a lot of planning that went into the development of Nassau County after the Second World War because there was such a demand for housing. We don't have the right of ways, we don't have the infrastructure that would've been a much better policy for the amount of growth that we've had since the end of the Second World War with the baby boomers.

The fact of the matter is that we don't have the room, we don't have the right of way to do a lot of the things that the governor is proposing, but there are some things that we can do. I think that's negotiable. I think that's something that the gov should do with local government, not dictate but be in a partnership with us to work things out. We will try to help her with some of her goals but she has to be receptive to our concerns because we do not want to lose our suburban character.

Brian Lehrer: Very interesting. Sounds like there's potential for some common ground and an interesting set of conversations about to take place. Before you go, I said we would touch on George Santos. You're the Republican County Executive of Nassau County where most of Santos' district is. Yesterday, you called on your party mate to resign because of his eye-popping number of lies about his biography. He quickly refused on the grounds that people elected him, the people can decide if he serves them well in the next election in two years. Want to respond to his response?

Bruce Blakeman: George Santos' career in public service is over. Whether he knows it or not, maybe he's lying to himself. He cannot continue to govern when everything about him was a lie. I certainly do not want to deal with it. If he would take my advice, if I were offering my advice as someone who has the gray hair, I would say to him, "You're a young man. You obviously have some intellect, you have troubles with the truth. If you resign, if you do the right thing, and apologize, and seek help because you have emotional issues."

Everybody that I've talked to has said that this guy's got emotional issues to lie and delude himself and to build this totally false foundation of his career and his life, he could rehabilitate himself. The American people are compassionate, they are forgiving, and they give people second chances if they rehabilitate themselves. He's got a lot of rehabilitation to do. The start of that would be understanding the depth of his behavior and resigning, getting the help that he needs, and then do something worthwhile to rehabilitate yourself in the eyes of people who would employ you whether it be in the public sector or the private sector.

Brian Lehrer: Do you and the county Republican party have any leverage other than the art of persuasion that you were just engaging in?

Bruce Blakeman: We don't. There are three investigations that are going on. Our district attorney, Ann Donnelly, a Republican, is investigating Mr. Santos' finances. I don't have any direct information, but I read in the media that the US attorney for the Eastern District has also looked into Mr. Santos' finances, and the ethics committee is looking at his behavior. I think that there's probably more that's going to come out going forward, but George Santos could do the people of the third Congressional district a service.

He could do himself a service by resigning and recognizing exactly how horrific his behavior was because let me tell you something. Lying about your whole life is really tragic. It means that your whole life is a complete lie. What irks me the most is that he represented that his parents were Holocaust survivors, which trivializes those who are actually survivors, the people who have families that were shot, that were gassed to death, that were starved to death. Six million people, two million of which were children, I find that so reprehensible. I could never deal with him again.

Brian Lehrer: A listener tweets, "George Santos was not elected by the people of his district, a person he fabricated was." Nassau County Executive, Bruce Blakeman, we always appreciate when you come on the show. Thank you so much.

Bruce Blakeman: Thanks, Brian. Happy New Year.

Brian Lehrer: And to you.

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