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Brian Lehrer:  Brian Lehrer on WNYC. With us now the CEO and chair of the MTA, Janno Lieber. After last week's derailment with dozens of injuries on the number 1 train at 96th Street, a big possible flooding event in the weather forecast for tomorrow that could affect mass transit, the congestion pricing process nearing completion, the toll could start being charged this spring below 60th Street in Manhattan, from what I've seen.

Maybe even a stake on what Penn Station renovation should be like, and whether Amtrak should start running a one-seat ride from Long Island to Washington, DC, as apparently, some people are talking about. Chairman Lieber, never a dull moment when you run the MTA. Welcome back to WNYC.

Janno Lieber: Great to be with you, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, your questions welcome for MTA chair and CEO, Janno Lieber, on all things buses, subways, commuter rails, bridges, and tunnels within the city, and yes, congestion pricing. 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692, your calls and texts. What did happen with that collision and derailment with a few days hindsight now on the number 1 train last week?

Janno Lieber: The investigation is still underway, so I'm not going to get ahead of that. The basic facts are, there was an in-service passenger train, a number 1 train, you know it from your neighborhood, Brian. It was moving normally, and then there was an out-of-service number 1 train that was on the adjacent track, and it was being operated in manual mode because the brakes had been disabled by vandals.

The result was, it had a red signal against us, and yet, it proceeded as they were crossing onto the same track, and they bumped into each other at very low speed. The specifics of what went wrong are still under investigation, but anytime two trains bump into each other, even at super low speed, you got to take it seriously, and we're doing that. We were thrilled that we were able to restore service very quickly and run a pretty robust shuttle bus service in the meantime so that the impacts to customers were managed.

Brian Lehrer: The last number of injuries I saw was 26. Any of them serious to your knowledge?

Janno Lieber: Not so far. The FDNY EMS folks who did the triaging said it was all not serious and all walked away. Obviously, that's a scary experience for some of our customers and we definitely want to get to the bottom of it and minimize it. The good news is this type of event only happens apparently once every 10 or 15 million trips. Compare that to the auto industry where there's an accident every 70,000 trips. We love the safety of mass transit by comparison.

Brian Lehrer: For sure. You anticipated my next question, I think, which is, is there any systemic issue there as you see it, or is this kind of a one-off that was bad but doesn't suggest something is off in the way things work that threatens more such collisions?

Janno Lieber: Listen, again, as I said, I'm not going to get ahead of the investigation, but I'm really confident in the safety record of New York City Transit, of our subway system. Comparatively, it is by far the safest way to get around. We're looking at making it safer where we've begun outfitting. I think about 60% of our trains are outfitted with these, what they call an event recorder, like a black box. We're putting on cameras on the inside of every subway train. We're pretty far along in that process.

This is all supported by and funded by Governor Hochul who's made safety on the mass transit system a big priority.

Brian Lehrer: You want to hear a random question from a listener on something else that could theoretically cause a train to stop very suddenly and cause injuries. Listener writes, "Ask Janno--" I guess they're on a first-name basis with you, "Ask Janno why there are still emergency brakes on some subway cars for idiots to pull for no reason and paralyze the line."

Janno Lieber: Bingo. The writer has a point. We had 1,700 plus emergency brake activations last year, only 30 of them, Brian, were actually legit. Only because there was a condition or an emergency that warranted. Most of them are vandalism. The result is, when they can't reset the brakes, which is what happened in the case of this passenger train that had the collision, it disrupts everybody.

Now, if we have cameras in cars, inside the cars like we are putting in, we're going to be able to get those people just like we get everybody who commits crimes, major crimes on the platforms, and the mezzanines, and elsewhere in the system. I'm really optimistic that we're going to be able to crack down on that form of vandalism.

Brian Lehrer: I've never been on a train, I'm pretty sure, on which someone pulled the emergency brake. What happens when somebody does that? Does the train come to a screeching, immediate halt, or does it slow down in a professional way?

Janno Lieber: No, it comes to a professional, immediate halt right away because the brakes are activated. There's an investigation by the train personnel and they have to reset the brakes in order to move forward once they've checked that there's nothing that needs further investigation. If it's just a vandalism-related activation, they reset the brakes once they've done the investigation, and then they move the train forward.

Brian Lehrer: Before we get to congestion pricing, despite some pretty flakes this weekend, the city's streak of no measurable snow, no plowable snow continues for 700-plus days. Did you have to deal with much on any parts of the Metro-North lines that's affecting commutes?

Janno Lieber: Yes, we were prepared. The forecast was long in advance and we planned for it. We had all our equipment deployed, all our snow fighting equipment, all of our pilot trains. There were 6-inches up in Putnam County, but we dealt with it. We're pretty good at dealing with weather, as you know, from some of the extreme weather events we're all seeing in the era of climate change.

Brian Lehrer: Well, what there has been more of as we see this era of global warming continue is flooding events that impact service more than snow events. Obviously, you know that, and another such storm could be coming tomorrow, we're being told. What are you expecting and how do recent problems in the system suggest how you should be preparing for something like that in 2024?

Janno Lieber: Well, we do it again and again, Brian. What we do is we make sure that we have a ton of pumping equipment deployed around the system, there are all the pumps throughout the system there. Hundreds of them are fully operable that all the drains are open and not clogged, and that we're ready to deploy customer service agents if there are any impacts of any kind, and so on, and so on. We're getting pretty good at this because as you know, we've had a lot of weather events.

We have also prepared always for-- every time there's a big storm and these flash flooding events take place, we learn where there are vulnerabilities in the system to water getting into stations, and we work with city DEP to close those up. The big challenge that we cannot overcome on our own is the fact that the city storm sewer system doesn't have capacity beyond roughly an inch and three-quarters per hour.

We always pushing the city of New York, God bless them, our partners, to increase the capacity of the storm sewer system so that the subway doesn't become the backup where all the water waits while they can't get enough out of the system. That's the big issue for the long run. In the meantime, we're getting better and better at fighting these flash flooding and rain events.

Brian Lehrer: Well, obviously, we've been covering the progress toward congestion pricing on the station. We've done some segments about this latest iteration of the plan with other guests. How close are we and what are the basic outlines of what you think is now the final version?

Janno Lieber: The special board that was established by state law-- remember, congestion pricing wasn't just something that I came up with after a drinking binge. It was actually enacted as the law of the state of New York in 2019. Part of that law said there was a special board that looked at all of the factors and set the price, and the exemptions, and the discounts, and so on. They did that about a month ago. That was chaired by Carl Weisbrod, the longtime civic figure, most recently, the chairman of the City Planning Commission.

They're proposing a $15-based toll, big discounts overnight on weekdays. That would be between 9:00 PM and 5:00 AM, on weekends, 9:00 PM to 9:00 AM, a 75% discount overnight, huge discounts for low-income, full exemption for people with disabilities, and some other specifics. We're ready to implement that program and really start to deal with the fact that we have no more room on our streets. We're already beyond the traffic that we had before COVID. Ambulances can't get to hospitals, firetrucks can't get the fires. It is a threat to our city, and it's also bad for our air and it frankly creates more crashes that hurt people and cyclists. We're ready to implement that program.

The principal challenge that we face now is lawsuits. It's America so there's always a pile of lawsuits when you try to do anything, even if you do a four-year, 4,000-page study that studies every traffic intersection halfway to Philadelphia. We did that. People are challenging the federal government's approval of our study but we're going to win those lawsuits and we're going to implement this and it's going to be better for people.

Because it's going to make less traffic means cleaner air, safer streets, and it's going to pay for transit. Things like modern signaling, more ADA compliance stations with elevators, zero-emissions buses so we can have cleaner air. Good stuff. It's going to come soon.

Brian Lehrer: Passenger cars $15, motorcycle $7.50, trucks I think it's anywhere from $24 to $36 to drive into the central business district, that is Manhattan below 60th street. Those are the basics, right?

Janno Lieber: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Plus $1.50, a $1.25, is it surcharge per ride, and Uber and Lyft, and the other rideshare services $2.50.

Janno Lieber: Brian, thanks for carrying all the water on the specific. The first thing I would say is just remind everybody there's a 75% discount overnight. Those numbers that you're quoting all get discounted by 75%. Yes, there will be a per-ride surcharge for Uber, Lyft, and taxis. The yellow cab charge I think it's half what the Uber and Lyft charges.

Ubers, Lyfts are now close to half of the congestion in the central business district. We don't have anything against anybody. We just need to deal with the fact that that surge in for-hire vehicles is impacting on basic functionality of our business center, and we need to deal with it.

Brian Lehrer: Which, like the sewage overflow is a policy matter outside of the MTA's control which has such massive implications. When they let, a number of years ago Ubers and Lyfts, continue to proliferate rather than the old system where it was restricted to the yellow cabs and in other parts of the city, the green cabs where they had valuable medallions or ownership rights. Now the streets have been flooded with the Ubers and Lyfts bad for the yellow cab drivers. We've talked about that so much over the years. Devastatingly bad in many cases, suicide, promoting bad and too many cases and the traffic as well.

Let me ask you about something you just said, which is that we're back to as much traffic or more traffic as before the pandemic. I'm curious if that traffic is different because since people aren't coming into town to work in person as much as before, is this mostly trucks? Is this the fact that the pandemic also started the most contemporary age of relying on delivery for so many things, that it's much more trucks than it was in the past and fewer cars?

Janno Lieber: It's a very insightful question. The answer is no, trucks are still only 4% or 5% of the total traffic. They do have a disproportionate impact on congestion because of their size, their ability to maneuver, and the fact that they get stuck on side streets as you know. That's one of the reasons that the charge for trucks because of the impact on construction was proposed to be higher than for just a regular personal auto. The question you're asking is the right one, which is where do we see diminishing vehicle travel in the central business district?

It's a small portion of the individual personal automobiles, 10% to 15%, and those Ubers and Lyfts. We want the yellow cab industry to bounce back, there's no question, but traffic is traffic. We have to deal with all different components of it. Ubers and Lyfts, personal owned vehicles and trucks as well. In the era that you're talking about, where we're all more dependent on truck deliveries, we need to make sure that the trucks that have to be here to support our economy can get around because right now everybody's spending a ton of time wasting time stuck in traffic. It's another reason for congestion pricing.

Brian Lehrer: Our current conversation relevant to both sides of the river as we are also live streaming @wnyc.org with the chair and CEO of the MTA, Janno Lieber. Louise in Brooklyn. You're on WNYC. Hello Louise.

Louise: Hi Brian, and happy New Year. Brian, my question is about congestion pricing, and I'm thinking of people who need to get into the city maybe on a daily basis because they need treatment either at Sloan or NYU. They are not healthy enough to be able to take public transportation. I'd just like to know if there's any kind of provision.

Janno Lieber: Louise, it's Janno Lieber at the MTA. Thank you for your question.

Louise: Yes, sir.

Janno Lieber: It's a good one. I'm a Brooklynite too. I hear that sometimes from my neighbors. That issue is actually studied by this separate board that looked at what the prices and exemptions ought to be. What they found, and the chairman talked about this, is that most forms of coverage, especially for low-income and moderate-income people do cover transportation, medical-related transportation. They also were concerned about the ability to document a valid medical need. That was their recommendation that we not deal with that.

I also said I have a lot of friends who work at NYU Hospital and Mount Sinai and so on. What I told them is, "Hey, there's a simple way you can guys fix it. Instead of charging people $30 for the first half hour to park and $45 for the full hour, why don't you have a validation system for your own parking facilities for people who really need to come instead of looking at this as a profit center for the people who don't have that medical transportation coverage?"

Most people should be able to cover it with their healthcare insurance. For those who don't, I think the hospitals shouldn't look at parking as a profit center. We'll keep pushing on that

Brian Lehrer: From Louise and Brooklyn we go to Brad in the Bronx. You're on WNYC with MTA Chair Janno Lieber. Hi, Brad.

Brad: Hi, how are you doing? I come in from the Bronx every day by motor scooter and I know it's going to be an $8 charge. I know that $8, I guess goes back to the MTA, but I do not want to take the subway into work every day. It's always late. It's slow. I'm always late to work so I just don't understand why the congestion pricing for motor scooters and more efficient vehicles is going to be implemented as far as the congestion pricing.

Brian Lehrer: When you say motor scooter, not a motorcycle, but something under that?

Brad: No, it's licensed. It's a 125cc Vespa.

Brian Lehrer: I see.

Brad: I will get the congestion pricing. I think it's $8 to come in every day.

Brian Lehrer: I think $7.50, but something like that. Chairman Lieber.

Janno Lieber: Thanks for the question, Brian. Listen, first I got to push back a tiny bit on you and I hope maybe we'll win your business back at some point. Service is now better than it has been in 10 years, and we're running a lot more service than we used to thanks to Governor Hochul who the last budget in last spring found new money for the MTA so we could keep running as much or more service even with a little lower ridership. It's pretty good. We're going to keep working on it to win back customers like you.

Now, on the congestion charge, because you are right, you have a little less impact on congestion than a personally owned automobile. That's why this board that looked at the pricing and the exemption said that you ought to be half the cost of a car. That was taken into consideration when they were looking at the pricing for scooters and motorcycles and so on. We also have four new metro, I don't know where you live in the Bronx, but we're doing a project to turn the Hellgate line in the East Bronx into a Metro-North line as well. There'll be four new stations.

If you're in that part of the Bronx, you'll actually have some more service on top of the subway service, the Metro North Service that already exists. Give us a shot and we hope we'll win you back.

Brian Lehrer: If somebody goes in and out multiple times for business or whatever, do they get charged each time or can there be a day pass?

Janno Lieber: No. It's one charge per day-

Brian Lehrer: Oh, it is.

Janno Lieber: -for the autos and the motorcycles and so on. Because the caller was from the Bronx, I would just add that 90-plus percent of Bronxites who commute to the CBD to the congestion zone actually do take transit. Although your caller, we get that he's entitled to his opinion, there are a lot of folks who are voting with their feet for transit out of the Bronx.

Brian Lehrer: The latest lawsuit is from the teacher's union, the UFT, which is teaming up with Staten Island Borough President, Vito Fossella. I would say the UFT and Vito Fossella agree on very few things in general. They're suing together. I guess the official grounds is that you didn't do another environmental review after you announced this latest version to see what this version would have as an environmental impact.

I imagine the real reason is because a lot of teachers must commute into the city to jobs that they have to attend to do their work, I guess. Otherwise, why would the UFT go to court over this? What's your understanding of that suit and what's your response to the claim about no environmental review done on the current plan?

Janno Lieber: It's the same claim in substance that was made by the state of New Jersey, which is that even though we did a 4,000-page, four-year review and as I said, studied the traffic impacts and the climate impacts for the entire 28-county region that nevertheless we didn't do enough. The federal government already found that we did do enough and gave us the approval, but they're contesting that.

Listen, the bottom line is, for students, students don't drive to work they take a bus. Less congestion is better for the students who are taking a bus to school in the central business district. It's also better for students because when there are fewer cars and less congestion, they're less likely to be hit by a car, which is a huge problem in these highly congested neighborhoods.

This was allegedly because there are teachers in Staten Island who work in lower Manhattan. When you run the numbers, there are only 150 teachers who live in Staten Island who work in Manhattan all over. It's like two dozen people who we're talking about who are represented in this lawsuit by the UFT overwhelmingly teachers and students take mass transit to the central business district.

Which Brian, as you know, the central business district, Lower Manhattan is the most transit-rich environment in the United States by a lot. It's got all kinds of subways and buses and commute rail service and people are voting to go there. We're just trying to in fact to make it a safer and less congestion environment.

Brian Lehrer: Here's one text message that you will enjoy hearing is actually supportive of congestion pricing. It says, "Us on the Jersey side of the river will also benefit from the reduced congestion. Downtown Jersey City is overrun with people driving into the city who could take transit but choose not to because driving is too cheap still congestion pricing is overdue." I'm sure you like that one. Then somebody writes-- "Oh, go ahead. Do you want to talk about that for a sec?

Janno Lieber: Let me just say that in that lawsuit, the state of New Jersey filed against us. There was amicus brief filed by 43 organizations from New Jersey that support congestion pricing. That texter that you just heard from, actually represents a lot of people. They don't get as much coverage, but there are a lot of folks. New Jersey also benefits because everybody who comes to the city on New Jersey Transit, most of them actually then get on the MTA. If we are using the congestion pricing revenues to improve the MTA New Jerseyites are going to benefit. That's part of the story too.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, another listener texts a thank you to the previous caller Brad in the Bronx for the following. The listener writes, "Scooter guy--" because Brad says he drives a motorized scooter into town. "Scooter guy doing the right thing and not taking the bike lane." Let's hear it for motorized vehicles not taking the bike lanes.

Janno Lieber: Amen.

Brian Lehrer: Listener writes then we're going to be out of time. "Why is there no Sunday exemption on the congestion charge? The day when the meters are off and traffic is light has traditionally given people an opportunity to handle personal business that requires a car without hefty fees."

Janno Lieber: It's a good question. Remember, I was talking about the overnight exemption instead of the weekday, the overnight discount ends at 5:00 AM. On the weekends it ends at 9:00. Why is there still a congestion charge from 9:00 AM to 9:00 PM on Sunday? The answer is because there's still congestion.

That's what we're trying to affect. People still drive to the city. We still have problems with congestion on the weekends. We're not like other cities where the downtown is dead on the weekends. The downtown in New York, thank God, is hopping. Part of that is we have to deal with congestion as a factor.

Brian Lehrer: When does this start?

Janno Lieber: Listen, we're ready. We have way more than half of the infrastructure, all the cameras, and all the back-office technology installed. We're going to be ready to go in probably May. We've got our contractor who's doing all that work is on schedule. The real issue is one, we have to get through what they call State Administrative Procedures Act, which is more hearings and more process before we enact it. We have to see where we are with these lawsuits if any judges are going to try to stop us from implementing the system. Those are the two factors that [unintelligible 00:25:40].

Brian Lehrer: Lawsuits could be years you don't know yet, right?

Janno Lieber: No. I don't view it quite that way because I'm confident that this is an easy case on the law. Listen, there are a couple of lawsuits and that's part of the answer of when are we going to start. Our plan is to start, as I said, in the late spring, probably late May, June thereabouts. We got to resolve these lawsuit issues.

Brian Lehrer: There is still an open window in a formal public comment period. When you're on the Brian Lehrer Show, it's always a public comment period. To get those comments in, all these questions that people have through formal channels, that window is still open?

Janno Lieber: Yes. As I said, this State Administrative Procedures Act requires us to hold hearings. Those will happen starting February 29th. There are four hearings scheduled. I think we put out a schedule for them in the last week or so. People can write in, they can communicate on social media. There are all these different avenues for people to comment and they will actually be in-person and online public hearings starting in late February on leap year day, February 29th.

Brian Lehrer: Let's do it on February 29th, once every four years. Janno Lieber, CEO, and chair of the MTA. Thanks as always for coming on.

Janno Lieber: You bet.

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