[music]

Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. On the Monday after the annual White House Correspondents' Dinner where the President and a chosen comedian get to roast whoever in Washington politics and media they choose to, but there was a gap in recent years as President Biden noted when he took the stage.

President Joe Biden: This is the first time a President attended this dinner in six years.

[applause]

President Joe Biden: It's understandable. We had a horrible plague followed by two years of COVID.

[laughter]

[applause]

President Joe Biden: Just imagine if my predecessor came to this dinner this year, now that would really have been a real coup if that occurred.

[laughter]

Brian Lehrer: The President got a few digs in, but he was just the warmup act for Trevor Noah, host of The Daily Show.

Trevor Noah: It is my great honor to be speaking tonight at the nation's most distinguished super spreader event.

[laughter]

Trevor Noah: No, for real people, what are we doing here? Let's be honest. What are we doing?

[laughter]

Trevor Noah: Did none of you learn anything from the Gridiron Dinner? Nothing. Huh?

[laughter]

Trevor Noah: Do you read any of your own newspapers?

[laughter]

Trevor Noah: I expect this from Sean Hannity, but the rest of you, what are you doing here?

[laughter]

Trevor Noah: You guys spent the last two years telling everyone the importance of wearing masks and avoiding large indoor gatherings, then the second someone offers you a free dinner, you all turn into Joe Rogan. Huh?

[laughter]

Brian Lehrer: All right. We'll play some more clips from Trevor Noah at the White House Correspodents' Dinner with two actual White House Correspodents, and we'll talk seriously too about the state of the Biden presidency and the midterm elections. The first big primary takes place tomorrow in Ohio with potentially Bellwether primaries for both Democrats and Republicans. Joining me now are Darlene Superville, White House Correspondent for the Associated Press and author of the new book Jill: A Biography of the First Lady, and Jonathan Lemire, White House bureau chief of Politico, host of Way Too Early on MSNBC and NBC weekdays at 5:00 AM, and author of the forthcoming book, The Big Lie: Election Chaos, Political Opportunism, and the State of American Politics after 2020.

Jonathan and Darlene were two of the estimated 2,600 people who attended the White House Correspondents' Dinner. Darlene and Jonathan, thanks for joining us. Welcome back to WNYC.

Darlene Superville: Thanks, good to be back.

Jonathan Lemire: Great to be here.

Brian Lehrer: How are you two feeling this morning, a raspy throat, a little achy, anything Jonathan?

Jonathan Lemire: I'm happy to report that just within the hour, I took a test and am negative and hopeful that will continue in the days ahead. I think you, obviously, if we heard Trevor know there at the top, there are certainly safety concerns about a dinner of this size. It comes not even a month after the Gridiron Dinner in Washington where there was a significant outbreak, about 100 people got sick, but they did put some safety measures in place for this one that were not present for the last dinner. In addition to having to show that you were both double vaccinated and boosted, you had to take a same-day test and of course, test negative to be allowed inside.

The White House made the decision that it was important for the President to be there to A, show that events because of vaccines, because of testing, events like these can be held safely, and as I say safely, let's all knock on wood [chuckles] that we stay negative the next couple days, but also as a tribute to the work of the press, the first amendment, contrasting what we're seeing in the US with Russia, but also what we saw under President Donald Trump.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Just a couple of quick follow-ups. When you say you took a test this morning, was that a routine thing following being in such a crowd before you went into the office at MSNBC or because you felt something?

Jonathan Lemire: No, because it's a routine thing. No symptoms, I feel fine, no symptoms whatsoever, but being cautious. A number of us who attended the dinner. In the next couple days, let's be safe. A number of the events that were associated with the dinner, the stuff that happens Thursday, Friday nights during the brunches the next day, those sort of events were largely outside, but the dinner itself of course was not and I think anyone who was there that day would be wise to take tests in the days ahead just to be safe.

Brian Lehrer: When you said they required testing unlike at the last dinner, you meant the Gridiron Club Dinner, right?

Jonathan Lemire: Correct. The Gridiron Club, they asked people to show proof of vaccination but they did not require a same-day test. There was obviously a significant outbreak there. The White House in the wake of that, the Correspodents' Dinner did require all attendees to have a negative test taken the same day.

Brian Lehrer: Darlene, I had read before the dinner that President Biden was going to be wearing a mask except when he was delivering his remarks, but I saw lots of shots of him unmasked while other people were speaking. Do you know how they decided when and if for Biden to be masked?

Darlene Superville: Yes. Actually, that's a good question. I was surprised when I saw him and the First Lady both walk in and take their seats up on the stage unmasked, not wearing a mask, and the White House press secretary Jen Psaki had told us in the days before the dinner that he would wear a mask except when he was at the microphone giving his remarks. I have not yet touched in with the White House on that particular point, but my guess would be that he got there and perhaps maybe surveyed that large audience of 2,600 people, most of whom were not wearing a mask, and figured it would probably be okay for the limited amount of time that he was spending there.

He did not eat, he didn't attend the entire dinner as past Presidents have done. He came in just after the dinner was served, I think the dessert course was being served, and just for his remarks, and there was probably sufficient spacing between him and the people seated to his left and right, so those were some of the calculations that I would guess went into his decision not to wear a mask.

Brian Lehrer: Darlene, to the extent that you noticed, what about the crowd in general when they weren't eating and also the staff working the event who presumably were not eating while they were working, many masks while not in the active eating for either group?

Darlene Superville: Most of the staff were masked, most of the hotel staff were masks who were serving us, but most of the people who were attending the dinner did not wear masks. There were pockets here and there of people who were masked throughout except when they were eating dinner of course, but by and large, most people did not wear masks during the entire night.

Brian Lehrer: Darlene, do you think there's any policy implication from the difference between how they didn't require testing before the Gridiron Club Dinner and did require testing for this? Some public health experts strenuously object to the trend now to leave it all up to individual choice on protection because that leaves the most vulnerable people, those without the means or the privileged connections to have someone to call for Paxlovid if they get infected or have a stockpile of tests at home, that kind of thing, and sometimes the distinction is made as a symbol of this, the difference between staff working an event like that and the people attending.

Darlene Superville: Policy choices for the White House?

Brian Lehrer: Well, in terms of what kinds of COVID protections to require for public events in the private sector.

Darlene Superville: I think the way that we've seen with COVID over the past two years, I think the strong feeling is to get away from government mandates. I don't think you'll see either the White House or state governments, or even local governments mandating vaccination or masking or things of that sort. I think we are in a stage of the pandemic now where a lot of decisions about what to do, where to go, will be left up to individuals and individual businesses and corporations and institutions and things like that.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. It certainly seems to be going that way. Jonathan, before we get off this topic, does it send a mixed message to the American public, "Get back to normal people," while the Biden administration is arguing in court to be allowed to keep the emergency mask mandate in place for public transportation, and for that matter, while Kamala Harris just got infected the other day?

Jonathan Lemire: There were several Whitehouse staffers who've been tested positive in recent days. I think that the Biden administration is trying two things at once. They're aware the cases are on the rise, at least in portions of the country right now, and that though this wave seems less lethal than previous ones, it's still there, there's still a significant jump, but the lawsuits though are about preserving the authority to do it in the future as much as they are now.

They do right now, though we are having this case because cases are still with things are much better in terms of the state of the pandemic now than they were say in December during the height of the Omicron wave last summer during the height of the Delta wave. They do recognize the American people's appetite for some of these regulations has worn thin, but they want to preserve the right to be able to do it were things to really get bad again. That's what this administration is doing, is they're trying to get more COVID funding from Congress.

They're trying to preserve their right to have mandates like these because there is that fear, whether it is another summer surge down South when everyone comes inside because of the air conditioning, or another winter surge here in the Northeast because it's cold outside and people are indoors packed together. Though there could be more variants the longer this virus is allowed to live here in the United States, but also around the world, there are, in much of the world, still not vaccinated, that there could be a chance of a variant and they need to be prepared to handle it if it comes.

Brian Lehrer: I guess I said that was going to be the last question on that topic. This will be the last question on this topic. How much of a factor and in what ways, if at all, do you think COVID will be a factor in the midterm elections for control of Congress? Darlene, any thoughts on that?

Darlene Superville: I think it may definitely be a factor in some elections, it will depend where. I would think in some of the more Republican states, obviously, where elected officials and even the public really chafed against being told they had to wear masks, being told they needed to get vaccinated, and that sort of thing, and I actually think it might come into play. The one race that I can think of off the top of my head right now would be the Ohio Governor's race. Mike DeWine, he's a Republican governor, and he's gotten some blowback for a lot of the COVID measures that he put in place in his state there in Ohio.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. I remember 2020 when Governor DeWine was on TV quite a bit as a Republican governor who thought it was important to take precautions.

Darlene Superville: That's right.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting if he gets challenged on the basis of that. Listeners, did you watch any of the President's remarks or Trevor Noah's remarks, or anything else at the White House Correspondents Dinner this weekend, or what do you want to say or ask about the midterm elections as we talk with-- Well, anyone from Ohio listening, let me throw that in now because we're going to get to a few other Ohio races as well with a preview of Vance versus Mandel, or Brown versus Turner, or what they mean for the Trump versus other people wing of the GOP, or the Biden versus Bernie wing of the Democratic Party. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

For our two White House Correspondent guests, Jonathan Lemire from Politico and Darlene Superville from The Associated Press, 212-433-9692, or you can Tweet your 280 character roast of whoever you want, or question @BrianLehrer. All right, here's another Trevor Noah riff at the White House Correspondents' Dinner that references an issue for the midterms.

Trevor Noah: Sir, can I just say, I think everyone will agree that it's actually nice to once again have a President who's not afraid to come to the White House Correspondents' Dinner and hear jokes about himself. I'll be honest, if you didn't come, I totally would have understood. Yes, because these people have been so hard on you, which I don't get, I really don't. I think ever since you've come into office, things are really looking up. Gas is up, rent is up, food is up, everything.

[laughter]

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and the polls are showing inflation is the number one voting issue this year, and Republicans have a big advantage on that issue. Jonathan, how is either side saying they have better policies to deal with inflation, or is it all a look back and say you caused this, no, you caused this?

Jonathan Lemire: First off, I'll say Trevor Noah was very funny on Saturday, he did a very nice job. Inflation is going to be the defining issue it would appear for these midterms. There is a poll out just this morning, I believe it's The Washington Post. We see a poll that gives the President very high marks on his handling of the crisis in Ukraine, and Americans largely agree with how he's handling it in terms of helping out Ukraine but not committing American forces on the ground, but we haven't seen the approval of the war actually change Joe Biden's approval ratings, not much, they're up a little bit. He's gone up a couple of points the last week or so.

Instead, voters seem more willing wanting to punish him for the state of the economy, and though many of the fundamentals of the economy are fairly healthy, prices are soaring. Gas prices are way up, though they've ticked down just a smidge lately. Obviously, groceries are up, food supplies are up, prices are up across the board, and Americans are frustrated. There's a great debate here about how this happened, did the government pump too much money into the economy? What will the Federal Reserve do now for interest rates to try to manage it?

It seems like, at least for now, that this is going to be a case where the party in power is going to be held responsible, even if they are very much not completely to blame for high prices. This is a global inflation, and also policies by the Republican President had a role in this too, but Biden and the Democrats look like they're going to suffer the penalty here and it could be a tough midterms.

Brian Lehrer: Darlene, what is the Biden White House trying to do about inflation? Do they have signature policies that are intended to fight it?

Darlene Superville: Well, the White House is trying very hard to put the President out there as much as possible, out there being in front of the public, and having him talk about different things that the administration is doing to try to lower costs and to also try to send a message to the public that he understands the pocketbook pain they're feeling, he knows they're stressed, and that he's trying to work on these issues. They're doing a number of different things, releasing oil, for example, from the strategic petroleum reserve, tens of millions of barrels of oil. He talks a lot about infrastructure and how the money in the infrastructure law that he signed last year will do things like improve ports.

If you improve the ports then goods can come in faster and that will work with the supply issues and help bring down inflation. There are lots of little things or smaller things that the White House is trying to do to combat inflation or to bring it down some. The bottom line is that a president doesn't really have a whole lot of tools at his disposal. Inflation is not something a president can really control.

Brian Lehrer: Here is a caller from Ávila beach, California. Joy, you're on WNYC, thank you for calling in. It's early out there.

Joy: [chuckles] Very early, but I always make time for you.

Brian Lehrer: Aww. What you got?

Joy: I was just wanting to say Trevor was hilarious as usual and I appreciated that he didn't spare anybody. I loved what he did to Ron DeSantis.

Brian Lehrer: Ah, remind me. He did a bunch of things to Ron DeSantis, do you have a line that's sticking with you?

Joy: No. It's early out here. [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: [chuckles] Okay, Joy, that's a good start. All right, Darlene, Jonathan, who remembers any of Trevor Noah's lines about Ron DeSantis? I'm putting you on the spot I know because I'm not remembering them myself.

Darlene Superville: He had a joke [crosstalk]--

Jonathan Lemire: Well, I can-- Go ahead, Darlene.

Darlene Superville: He had a joke about Governor DeSantis and banning Math books, and somehow tied it into the election and said, "You can't dispute the numbers if you don't have the Math books to do the math," or something like that. It was one of the more crowd-pleasing jokes about the governor.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and was it by the [crosstalk]--

Darlene Superville: [inaudible 00:18:13] [crosstalk] sorry.

Jonathan Lemire: Darlene's delivery was--

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Jonathan Lemire: Darlene's delivery was top-notch there [unintelligible 00:18:18] the joke, but Trevor Noah wasn't the only one to make jokes at Ron DeSantis's expense, so did President Biden, making a comment about how he was taking on Disney and the magic kingdom, that that will be the next place that will be stormed. An allusion, perhaps, to the January 6th riots. Yes, it was like, we'll say, DeSantis, it's a testament to his rising stature on the Right that he has become such a national punchline here and that he seems like perhaps the one GOP candidate who would be willing to go through with a run against Trump were Trump to run and actually have some sort of chance.

Brian Lehrer: Was it Biden? I'm remembering one of the laugh lines. Was it Biden, Jonathan, who said, "Ronald Reagan as President said, 'Mr. Gorbachev, tear down that wall.' Ron DeSantis as governor is saying tear down Mickey Mouse's house?"

Jonathan Lemire: Yes. I think that's it.

Darlene Superville: It was the President.

Jonathan Lemire: Yes. Biden, I will say, there were some White House aids I spoke to before the night where they were a little apprehensive as to how he would do, but he was funny. He had a little fun with the "Let's go, Brandon" a bit, but the single best line probably of the night from either man who spoke was when President Biden said that he noted that it was the first time a President had appeared at that dinner in six years, but he said it was understandable because they had a plague and then two years of COVID-

Brian Lehrer: Yes, hahaha. Right. Which we played at the beginning.

Jonathan Lemire: -which got the biggest laughs of the night, perhaps, yes.

Brian Lehrer: One of Biden's joke on himself was that when he was introduced and people clapped, he thanked the 42% of you who applauded, hahaha, but the 42% approval rating that the latest polls show him with is actually up a little bit from the 30s. Darlene, one of the poll numbers I saw this morning was that Black voter approval has dropped from 87% at the start of the administration to around 67% now. That, of course, is an important part of the Democratic base who they need to turn out in the elections this fall, even if they prefer a Democrat to a Republican. Any thoughts about what's behind that number?

Darlene Superville: Yes, that's a significant drop, and Black voters are a big reason why Joe Biden is where he is today sitting in the Oval Office in the White House. There are a number of factors, I think, that play into that polling drop that we're seeing. Biden, when he was a candidate, promised to do a number of things that are important to the Black community, voting rights issues, passing legislation to deal with a lot of the retrenchment in voting access that we've seen at the state level.

He also promised to sign legislation that would overhaul policing practices in the United States. A lot of this stemmed from the killing of George Floyd almost two years ago now and the other police-involved killings of unarmed Black men. Because of the slim majority that Democrats have in the United States Senate, he has not been able to do either of those things, though both of those issues are hugely important. Voters are seeing, again, a politician who promised all these wonderful things but has been unable to deliver. That's what's influencing that. Now, he did keep his promise to put a Black woman justice on the United States Supreme Court.

We'll see that in short order once Justice Breyer wraps up his term and steps down and Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson takes her seat on the court, but that alone is not enough to surmount the disappointment that a lot of Black voters are feeling at the President's inability to act on these other issues that are important to them.

Brian Lehrer: When we come back from a break, we'll play another of Trevor Noah's lines that references one of the reasons Biden is having such a problem getting things through Congress. Also, callers, we see you. Obren in East Orange, we'll take your call with what you liked about something Trevor Noah said. Chris in Bloomfield, definitely see you. We'll talk about your Ohio family as we pivot to the important Ohio primaries coming up tomorrow. Stay with us as with Darlene Superville, Associated Press White House correspondent, and Jonathan Lemire, Politico White House bureau chief. We continue here on WNYC.

[music]

Trevor Noah: Senator McConnell, don't you think it's strange that you and the devil have never been seen in the same place at the same time? Don't you think that's strange? I guess when you go to hell you'll find out for yourself.

[laughter]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC as we talk about laugh lines from and the serious issues they raised at the White House Correspondents' Dinner. The host and headliner Trevor Noah who you heard went all the way there in that line about Mitch McConnell. He was channeling the voice of Jonathan Swan from Axios who's from Australia, by the way, in that clip. He didn't pull any punches either did Trevor Noah when it came to certain Democrats.

Trevor Noah: By the way, give it up for Kyrsten Sinema. Whoever thought we'd see the day in American politics when a senator could be openly bisexual but closeted Republican. Huh? That's progress.

Brian Lehrer: As we continue with Darlene Superville, White House Correspondent for The Associated Press, and Jonathan Lemire, White House bureau chief for Politico and host of Way Too Early weekdays in the 5:00 AM hour on MSNBC. Darlene, is Biden having any movement toward getting any version of Build Back Better through the Manchin and Sinema barrier, childcare, eldercare, climate protection, the Build Back Better Bill?

Darlene Superville: I think he would like to, but it remains to be seen at this point. The White House had talked earlier this year about breaking Build Back Better up into some smaller legislation that might be able to get through the Senate, but that seems unlikely at this point, particularly now that we're heading into midterms and all eyes in Congress are going to be turned on elections and getting reelected and that kind of thing. The next big thing on the agenda for Congress is the President's $33 billion request for military and humanitarian aid for Ukraine. Both Houses need to get working on that soon.

It doesn't seem as if there will be a lot of bandwidth in Congress to also deal with the President's social spending and climate change massive legislation.

Brian Lehrer: Obren in East Orange, you're on WNYC. Hello, Obren.

Obren: Hello, everyone. My favorite part of the monologue of Trevor Noah was at the end when he challenged the journalists in the room, asked them what do they think would happen if Russian journalists had the privilege that they had. He implied that even the Ukrainian war wouldn't happen if they had the same privileges as their US counterparts. Are the US journalists using their responsibility in a way that really holds power to account or are they just being [crosstalk]--

Brian Lehrer: Stenographers.

Obren: Yes, just stenographers, or just are they too cozy with the power structure. I thought that was a pretty good challenge he laid down to the journalists in the room.

Brian Lehrer: Obren, thank you very much. Well, let me ask the two of you the eternal White House Correspondents Dinner question. Does it hurt the reputation of the press to be schmoozing and eating and drinking and laughing it up with the people you're supposed to be holding accountable? Jonathan?

Jonathan Lemire: You're right that that is the question that gets asked every year around these times. I think though that two things can be done at once. Part of reporting is you talk to officials and sometimes in an informal manner. If reporters were relying on just what they told us from the White House podium, we wouldn't be getting much. It's about talking to other people, other officials, other staffers, other aides, many of whom are not supposed to be even talking to the press, not really, and learning the story that way. I think, in that sense, having these interactions with officials or sources is okay.

Now, does it need to be quite as big of a production as the Correspondent' Dinner, I will leave that to someone else. I will add, though, to touch on Trevor Noah's point there, it was a good one. Both he and the President underscored how an event like that couldn't happen in let's say, Russia, where as Noah joked, but was true, the saying that if I had made jokes at Vladimir Putin's expense, I'd be thrown to jail if I was a comedian in Russia. That's not going to happen here in the US. The same applies to journalists. We've seen journalists be jailed in Russia. That's why White House officials told me they were so keen on President Biden going as he wanted to deliver that message and draw that contrast.

I will say, the most emotional moment of the night was when they ran a montage of the nearly dozen or so journalists who have been killed while covering the war in Ukraine, including a couple who worked for Fox News. As soon as that montage ended, the first one out of his seat clapping was President Biden, an emotional President Biden clapping loudly and the rest of the room stood and followed suit.

Brian Lehrer: That's right. That was the counterpoint to the joke that actually Biden made first as I recall and set up Trevor Noah for it. As he introduced Trevor Noah, Biden said, "I know you're going to roast me, but unlike in Moscow, we're not going to throw you in jail for it no matter what you say." Darlene, any thoughts from you? Any institutional hand-wringing ever at the AP, in your experience, about attending or sending people like you as a White House Correspondent to the White House Correspondents Dinner to schmooze and laugh it up with the people you're supposed to be holding accountable, whether it makes you too cozy with them, in fact, or whether it even just hurts the reputation of journalists?

Darlene Superville: First, I would just say that I agree with everything Jonathan said. We as reporters do a lot of meeting with sources and talking with sources over coffee at coffee shops and bars and that sort of thing. This is one night where the association comes together. I think one thing that gets overlooked a lot is just the enormous amount of money and scholarships that is given out every year to aspiring journalists from colleges and universities around the country, and the proceeds from the dinner help fund those scholarships. There are also some awards to journalists for their coverage of the White House during the year.

The second thing I would say is that Jonathan and I both know and we both know this from talking to people at the White House that President Biden is not super in love with the press. He is not in love with the press coverage that he's been getting. He thinks it's too negative, and so the fact that he can come into the room with us and we can be there with him, it shows a healthy respect, I think. To your question about institutional hand wringing at the AP, I've not encountered any in all the years that I've been going to the dinner.

One thing that I would say sets the AP apart a little bit from some of the other organizations that go to the dinner is that we typically don't try to invite five-star celebrities or Hollywood figures. We try to stick with people who are sources or who could be sources in the future and people who can help inform our reporting.

Brian Lehrer: A couple of tweets coming in. One listener writes, “White House Correspondents' dinner is funny and depressing for lack of self-respect and respect altogether.” There's a multi-layered thought. Someone else writes, “My favorite joke was the waffle house Fox News.” The listener asked, “What can be done about the misinformation from Fox News? The waffle house Fox News joke was--” I think this one was Trevor Noah. It was something like, “Oh, Fox News is like waffle house. It's normal during the day but at night, there's a crazy woman named Janine who says, “I'm going to personally fight any Mexican who walks in here.” They were obviously having their fun with Fox News.

Was it Biden though, Jonathan, who made the reference about the vaccine and the booster being required to attend the dinner and then pointing out that there were a lot of Fox News people at the dinner and therefore, Fox News viewers take note, they were all vaccinated and boosted?

Jonathan Lemire: Indeed it was the President who was touting the success rate of the vaccine and saying that that's why we could gather here tonight, and for those who were watching Fox News skeptic ask your favorite Fox News personality because they're all tested in here today. I should note that the next day, a couple of people got here on Fox News and proudly disputed that and said, “Well, no, no, we're not vaccinated.” Well, they also weren't allowed to go to the dinner.

This, of course, comes though at a moment where Fox News has come under a lot of scrutiny for its coverage of the pandemic, particularly their primetime hosts, particularly Dr. Carlson casting such great doubt on the efficacy and wisdom of the vaccine when science points otherwise and President Biden has made similar comments like that before noting that those requirements are in place at Fox News itself.

Brian Lehrer: Chris, in Bloomfield, you're on WNYC. Hi, Chris.

Chris: Hi, Brian. I just want to say I'm originally from Ohio and have relatives there. I can say, in the past few years after Obama was elected, my one cousin actually thought about voting for him but they've really gone crazy over there, especially with the anti-vac stuff. I don't even know who these people are anymore. I can't even talk to them. It's just that area of the country, maybe just the people I'm speaking with, but it's really just disconcerting to see your relatives go down this rabbit hole and you just can't talk to them. They just really have bought into that thinking hook line and sinker.

Brian Lehrer: Do you have any theory as to why your relatives in Ohio have gone down those kinds of rabbit holes? Later in the show, we're going to be talking to Matthew Continetti who has written 100-year history of the conservative movement in the United States and how it led to Trump. Do you have any thoughts just based on the people you know, how they might have gone from what you might consider more normal Republicans to crazy-tunes Republicans?

Chris: I think in part the media that they listen to, in part. They tend to listen to all right-wing media, but also when I originally came from the state, I came from a steel town and we had in that period of time, I'm a baby boomer, if you didn't go to college, you could get a factory job and support your family. I mean, we had Ford plant there. We had the steel mills. We have the tire companies and everything. I think all that's been hollowed out, so I think part of it is just the economic frustration of there's just not many opportunities I think for blue-collar people there. I think Trump really played to those people without giving them anything in return. I think that's a big part of it.

I've just seen how that area of the country has changed.

Brian Lehrer: He channeled their rage. Chris, thank you.

Chris: Sure.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for your call. I appreciate it. In fact, tomorrow is perhaps the first big 2022 midterm elections test with important primaries on both the Democratic side and the Republican side, and that is in Ohio. On the Republican side, it's the Trump-endorsed Senate candidate J. D. Vance going against Republican Josh Mandel for the Dems. Notable will be incumbent house member Shontel Brown being challenged by Bernie Sanders' ally Nina Turner. Let's talk briefly about each side before we run out of time. On the Republican side, Jonathan, how big a test is this for Trump himself and let's say, the stolen election conspiracy wing of the Republican Party?

Jonathan Lemire: A significant one. Trump endorsed J. D. Vance in recent days to the surprise of some in Ohio, but a truism with Trump is he tends to gravitate towards the biggest celebrity in the race. Although he botched the endorsement over the weekend, a clip that's making the rounds, he got the names mixed up and said that he backed J. D. Mandel, a person who does not exist but apparently is a combination of the two Republican candidates. If Trump were to win, if his candidate were to win, that would reinforce the idea that he is still a kingmaker in the Republican Party. Even though his poll numbers have slipped slightly among the GOP, but he still has the loudest voice in the room.

That will be a test, but it's not the only one. I'll just interject quickly to say the Georgia Governor race at primary, which is a little later this month, is another big one where Trump's backed candidate David Perdue has gone all in. He's made his entire candidacy about how the 2020 election was stolen. The incumbent governor, Brian Kemp, who drew Trump's wrath because he wouldn't say that and upheld Biden's victory there has not done so, and Kemp is up big in the polls.

Yes, I think Trump if Vance were to win this week and he has also backed the idea of the elections was a fraud, of course, that's not true, trump will get a boost, but it may be pretty topsy turvy for him this month as we look to evaluate his status in the GOP.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting what you say about Kemp being up big in the polls in Georgia, running to uphold the fact that the election was actually won in Georgia by Biden, which of course, the results showed that it was. I see you have an article today, Jonathan, along those lines with some Democrats, basically hoping that Elon Musk does reinstate Trump's Twitter account and Trump does start using it again, you have that article on Politico. Why would Democrats want that?

Jonathan Lemire: Well, we know the Democrats have some headwind this fall. That the party in power tends to lose seats in the midterms. We talked about inflation earlier. The White House is really trying to draw sharp contrasts between what they have done and what Republicans say they will do if they take power. Particularly, the real MAGA wing of the Republican Party that they think most Americans find unacceptable. We saw that in 2020, a lot of suburban voters broke hard away from Trump and went to Biden. They've been comforted by two things.

One, Emmanuel Macron’s victory in France, and you say, what does that have to do with this? Well, he's someone who had similarly poor poll numbers but yet still won because a lot of French voters, maybe they weren't in love with him, but they still thought he was a better choice than the far right extreme candidate Marine Le Pen. The Biden White House thinks that a lot of voters will do the same here, that they may not love Biden per se, but they won't want to give the party back to the MAGA folks. They think that if Trump were instituted on Twitter, which Elon Musk if his purchase of the social media site goes through, has hinted that he would do, that Trump would cause more trouble for Republicans.

That he would amplify his base of claims of voter fraud. He would amplify the real fringe elements of the Republican Party, and Democrats think that could turn off those independent swing voters and they might stick with the [unintelligible 00:40:00].

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. High-stakes Twitter poker. On the Democratic house race in Ohio, Darlene, we're going to let Trevor Noah set this one up for us too from when he acknowledged First Lady Jill Biden.

Trevor Noah: First Lady Dr. Jill Biden is here, everybody. Give it up for her.

[applause]

Trevor Noah: Interesting fact, even as First Lady, Dr. Biden continued her teaching career. The first time a presidential spouse has ever done so ever. Ever. Congratulations.

[applause]

Trevor Noah: Now, you might think it's because she loves teaching so much, but it's actually because she's still paying off her student debt. I'm sorry about that, Jill. I guess you should have voted for Bernie.

Brian Lehrer: Darlene, your new book is about the First Lady and we'll get to her to close it out, but that was a student loan Bernie Sanders joke versus half-baked Biden liberalism joke. Is that the Shontel Brown versus Nina Turner test here in this house race in Ohio?

Darlene Superville: [chuckles] Yes. That would seem to be one of them. The student loan debt issue and the question of whether to forgive billions of dollars in student loan debt is facing the President right now. He just recently extended the deadline on that to August and so he's got a big decision coming up on what to do on that front. Yes, it's an issue playing out in that race too, and pitting to some degree Biden against Bernie all over again.

Brian Lehrer: Last thing then, Darlene, I see your latest article is about Jill Biden planning to go to Eastern Europe for Mother's Day next weekend, and you've got a brand new book all about Jill Biden. Is the context for the trip the war in Ukraine?

Darlene Superville: Yes, it is. She is leaving on Thursday and will be in Eastern Europe through Monday, stopping off in Romania and Slovakia. A lot of it is to show solidarity with Ukraine, some of which she's done before in smaller ways, wearing a face mask with a sunflower on it, which is the Ukrainian national flower, inviting the Ukrainian ambassador to the US to sit with her for the President's State of the Union Speech in March.

Now, she's going to be getting on a plane and going over there and meeting with a lot of Ukrainian refugees who are mostly women and children, mothers and their children who fled after the Russian invasion, meeting with humanitarian workers, and also members of the US military and embassy staff just to thank them for all the work they're doing and show support for Ukrainians.

Brian Lehrer: Is there something fundamentally consistent in that with any of the themes in your new biography of the First Lady?

Darlene Superville: One of the things that we talk about in the book, and I say we, the book is co-authored with Julie Pace, the executive editor of the Associated Press, one of the things we talk about in the book is just how much she has been a support person for the President throughout his career and this trip and all of the traveling that she's done since becoming First Lady has been to support the administration, its goals, to support the President. We know at this point that the White House does not have any immediate plans to send him to Ukraine. We saw last week or within recent weeks the Defense Secretary and the Secretary of State both went to Kyiv. We saw speaker Nancy Pelosi there just a couple of days ago.

Vice President Harris was in the region some months ago. The First Lady is now the latest member of the administration to head over there to show support for that embattled country.

Brian Lehrer: You beg a follow-up question, which is why everybody almost all the way up to the top, Nancy Pelosi, Jill Biden, but not the President?

Darlene Superville: Security concerns are usually what is tossed back at us when we ask if the President is going or is he going to be sent over there? That is a legitimate issue but I do think that all of the officials that we've seen going over there so far, that it could be seen as a lead-up to an eventual visit by the President once the conditions allow it.

Brian Lehrer: Darlene Superville, White House Correspondent for the Associated Press and author of the new book Jill: A Biography of the First Lady, and Jonathan Lemire, White House Bureau Chief for Politico, host of Way Too Early on MSNBC weekdays in the 5:00 AM Eastern time hour, and author of the forthcoming book, The Big Lie: Election Chaos, Political Opportunism, and the State of American Politics After 2020. Jonathan and Darlene, thank you so much for coming after you lost I'm sure at least a little sleep on Saturday night by attending that dinner with all the White House Correspondents and the President and Trevor Noah. Thanks for coming on this morning.

Darlene Superville: Thank you.

Jonathan Lemire: Thank you so much.

 

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