Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Hope you had a great weekend. Did you hear that there was another big train derailment in Ohio over the weekend? Again, it was a Norfolk Southern train. This time there was apparently no big toxic chemical release, like in East Palestine last month, but officials are still asking about smaller leaks. The train involved here did derail as close as around 1,000 feet from people's homes, it's being reported. The latest derailment was on an even longer train, about 200 cars.

These freight trains are so long in many cases, which leads people not just in Ohio, but all over the country to ask again, could it happen here? In the New York area, Democratic Congressman Pat Ryan, who will join us in just a minute, is demanding that the railroad company CSX, which runs big freight trains along the Hudson River and elsewhere in the Hudson Valley, adopt more stringent safety measures because derailments have happened in New York, too. They just didn't make the news because they didn't involve big toxic releases. What about next time?

One of the interesting things here is that because East Palestine, Ohio is a very Republican place. Suddenly, Republicans are preaching from a gospel they're not very familiar with, they probably had a look in their attics and basements for this book and dust off the talking points, calling for more government regulation of an industry over environmental concerns and safety concerns. What happened to defund the EPA? That's usually the Democrat's turf, environmental regulation, and Republicans say, "Get government off, the economy's back."

Another weird point of confluence right now, President Biden and 31 House Democrats sided with the Republican majority in overruling criminal justice reform, a bill for Washington, D.C. passed by the D.C. City Council. This unusual bipartisan coalition left D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser in a weird position because she vetoed the reform bill as too soft on crime but then didn't like President Biden messing in her city's business, even though he took her side.

Mayor Muriel Bowser: Our position, I think it's clear. I'm not a supporter of what the D.C. Council did with the bill. I made that very clear in the legislative process, and I vetoed the bill. Unfortunately, we live with the indignity of limited home role in the District of Columbia where taxpaying Americans were in the shadow of the Capitol, but we don't have two senators. We don't have a vote.

Brian Lehrer: Muriel Bowser, Mayor of D.C. on NBC the other day. With us now, Democratic Congressman Pat Ryan from New York's 19th Congressional District. That's a long east-to-west district, if you don't know it, with the new lines drawn last year, from Kingston in the northeast corner through the Catskills and even touching as far west as a little bit of the Finger Lakes. It comes closest to New York City near New Jersey's northern border, which is still within commuting distance to the city. He used to be the Ulster County Executive covering Kingston and New Paltz and around there before his election to Congress last year. Relevant to the train derailment, he has gotten seated on the transportation and infrastructure committee. Congressman Ryan, great of you to come on again. Welcome back to WNYC.

Congressman Pat Ryan: Hey, Brian. Thanks for having me. Good to be with you.

Brian Lehrer: Most people in New York don't think about freight trains very much, but there's a lot of track and a lot of freight train traffic, right?

Congressman Pat Ryan: Certainly in my district, which runs along the Hudson River. We think about it every single day because we have sometimes 20 of these big, loud, dangerous freight trains barreling through our cities and our communities. We've seen this disturbing pattern of big rail companies putting profit over safety. Of course, you mentioned, just this weekend, another example of trying to take shortcuts on safety and paying workers fairly results in another disaster. We cannot allow this to happen in New York, in the Hudson Valley, which would, by the way, affect potentially everybody in the city given how important the river is to our entire ecosystem.

Brian Lehrer: Absolutely. Your press release mentioned as many as five trains a day carrying the explosion-prone Bakken, if I'm saying that word right, Bakken crude oil. What kind of oil is that, going from where to where, for whom, and why do you call it explosive-prone?

Congressman Pat Ryan: Usually, these trains carry garbage and very toxic chemicals as well as crude oil. Crude oil, unfortunately, is highly volatile and flammable. This Bakken isn't just a variety of crude oil. Most of these trains are running northbound, and going up to Upstate New York and sometimes even Canada or further up northeast, New England. Every single day, these are coming through. Just a few years ago in Newburgh, New York, we had a significant derailment. Thousands of tons of crude oil polluted the ground and the river. This was just a few years ago with CSX. CSX is, just like Norfolk Southern, one of these big rail companies. I sent a letter to their CEO last week demanding that they take safety seriously, and, unfortunately, their response is concerning and sadly a little bit predictable.

Brian Lehrer: Talk more about CSX. CSX is what's here, not Norfolk Southern, the one that's been in the news?

Congressman Pat Ryan: We actually have both in New York State. CSX runs a line that runs basically from northern New Jersey up through the Hudson Valley for about 121 miles, and then it actually meets a Norfolk Southern line that tends to run east to west further out into western New York. In my district, it's all CSX. Last year, by the way, CSX made over $6 billion dollars, and has spent tens of millions of dollars lobbying Congress, lobbying the Trump administration, trying to weaken safety regulations and that's exactly why we are in the situation that we're in right now.

Brian Lehrer: Your release says CSX reported an astonishing record annual operating income last year of $4.8 billion. That's unusual in historical terms?

Congressman Pat Ryan: The freight rails are doing better than they've ever done because they're frankly cutting corners on safety. They've been screwing over their workers and not paying them enough. Many of these trains that have, as you said, 200 plus cars will have one engineer on the entire train responsible for safety of that very volatile and risky cargo. We've got to apply common sense safety regulations, which again were in the works a few years ago until Trump blocked them. You talked about this in your intro. I hope that we actually see bipartisan support for common sense rail safety, especially in light of this crisis, but I'm concerned that there's not much of a track record of at least most Republicans doing the right thing on this.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, anyone live near freight rail tracks and want to call in or anyone else on anything else relevant to Congressman Pat Ryan from New York's 19th Congressional District north of the city, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer. In your release, you call on Congress to follow through on what you call new bipartisan support to modernize breaking regulations and new bipartisan interest in pushing past railroad industry opposition for stronger rules governing hazardous shipments.

You just referred to this, but I wonder with this new bipartisan interest and support that you refer to, maybe there's no answer to this question, but I wonder what the Republicans in Congress would be saying if the derailment happened in Flint, Michigan or Brownsville, Brooklyn. You think they'd blame the company or seek to take strong action like they are after the population of Palestine, Ohio, which voted 75% for Trump, I see, rose their voices.

Congressman Pat Ryan: That's a great question. I just want to quickly correct with all respect, Brian. I know New York redistricting was crazy this year. I now represent the 18th Congressional District. I know we changed all the numbers and all the districts, but just for folks that are listening, it's kind of the mid-Hudson Valley, Kingston and Newburgh, and Beacon and Goshen and areas like that. I know we changed all of that around.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, gosh. Sorry about that.

Congressman Pat Ryan: No, no, no, that's okay.

Brian Lehrer: I got the flip backwards in my head because I know we talked about this the last time you were on, but I thought you went from 18 to 19. You went from 19 to 18, so I was just laying out Marc Molinaro's district in the intro. Is that what I did?

Congressman Pat Ryan: A little bit, but it's okay. I know it's very confusing. Anyway, to answer your good and important question. You would hope that it doesn't matter where this happened, but I think that-- I'm still not convinced that minus the rhetoric that we've seen from Republicans, we'll see a real push. As I've started to have some conversations here through the transportation infrastructure committee, which has a lot of the oversight and legislative authority, I'm trying to work on some legislation. I've been reaching out to Republican potential co-sponsors, and I got to say, minus the rhetoric, there's not a lot of willingness to push back on the rail industry.

For example, I'm working on legislation that would increase the penalties for when there is a violation of safety protocol. Right now, no matter what happened, no matter how big the crisis is, the maximum federal penalty to any rail is about $225,000. That is a rounding error for a company that's making billions and billions of dollars. As I've asked Republicans to sign on to increasing penalties, which to me feels common sense, it's a little bit of crickets so far. Let's see if people actually, again, step up and do the right thing here.

Brian Lehrer: Well, let's talk about that recent history that you referred to a few minutes ago, there was a specific rollback of train safety rules under President Trump. They're trying to distract attention from that by focusing on Biden and Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg being slow to visit in person after this derailment, but what happened under Trump?

Congressman Pat Ryan: Under Trump, there was actually significant legislation. Senator Chuck Schumer actually was one of the folks championing it to get it through that would have addressed a lot of these issues. It increased auto brake requirements and breaking safety requirements. It increased the number of engineers required on a train. It increased penalties. It had come pretty far through the legislative process in Congress. Trump comes in and, of course, after getting millions of dollars of lobbying from the rail industry, he completely blew that up and killed it and threatened to veto. Had that gone through, I think it's pretty fair to say that that could have actually prevented what happened in East Palestine and some of these other tragic derailments that we've had.

Brian Lehrer: You mentioned safety rules and also pay. Some of our listeners will remember that there was just a railroad strike that was in the news. Where does pay come into play with respect to safety and the toxic derailments?

Congressman Pat Ryan: Well, exactly, Brian. A lot of the rail workers that were raising concern about their compensation and their working conditions were raising these exact issues that you're asking us to, with not enough staff and not enough pay, and by the way, no time off or paid sick leave, which I think is ridiculous to keep these train safe. They were just asking for a reasonable number of staffing requirements and fair pay and a few days of paid sick leave, like every American should have at a minimum, in my opinion. I was proud to stand with the rail workers in that back and forth when that played out earlier this year.

This is happening across the country across so many industries. As corporations are making record profits, workers are getting pinched and, frankly, hurt and screwed over I believe, and it makes things less safe. It hurts consumers. A different issue, but we've had massive issues in the Hudson Valley with our public energy utility. Similar to ConEd in the city, we have a different one, but we've had a disastrous failure there as the company makes record profits. We're seeing this across the board and we've got to get the balance back in balance here.

Brian Lehrer: Monique in Tarrytown, you're on WNYC. Hi, Monique. Monique, do we have you? I don't think Monique can hear me. Let's see if Cheryl in SoHo can hear me or if it's us. Cheryl, I think you can hear me, right? Oh, all right. Now we have Monique and I'm confused. Hi, do we have a caller? Tell me your name. [chuckles]

Monique: Hi. My name is Monique from Tarrytown. I'm calling to remind everyone that we have to look at transportation holistically. Just do we want to have all these chemicals on the highways? Trains are very efficient. Trains can run well, but we also have to see the fact that taxpayers underwrite their traffic controllers. We underwrite the highways. That's not the case for the rail industry. I think we cannot compare apples to apples unless we are really looking at the cost to safety, the cost to transportation, on the big picture on an environmental, on a safety, and economic point of view.

Brian Lehrer: Congressman, were you able to hear her?

Congressman Pat Ryan: Yes. Hey, Monique. Great point. I'm a transportation policy nerd myself, so I appreciate that point. Look, I think on rail safety specifically, what I'm calling for is to recognize it is these private rail companies that are making record profits. The cost would be largely borne by them to just do reasonable things in terms of ensuring safety. On your broader point, we as a government at every level, we also need to make, I believe, public investment in our rail, both commuter rail like Metro-North and the other parts of the MTA, as well as in freight.

Many of the rail lines are in desperate need of investment. That's why I'm focused on through the transportation infrastructure committee getting dollars back to the Hudson Valley to New York State to upgrade our rail infrastructure as part of the bipartisan infrastructure law. We've got over a trillion dollars of appropriated funds. Now we got to get them working to bolster safety and better service on our rail, so I agree.

Brian Lehrer: When she asks, is this the best way to move a lot of stuff, can you as a member of the transportation committee or an infrastructure committee, or just because you're curious about this stuff, take a step back and say what's moving more by train, because you said more stuff is being moved by train? We also see certainly, since the pandemic, so much stuff is being moved by truck, with all this ordering to people's homes, huge Amazon trucks on the road, and everything at a level that there wasn't before. What's the balance, and what do you think the best balance is?

Congressman Pat Ryan: I think it's going to depend on the circumstances of the area and the freight and the cargo. I agree, rail is one of the most relatively safe, cost-effective, and proven ways to move a whole lot of things, which makes it even more important that we just apply a baseline reasonable set of safety regulations and staffing regulations to it just like we do on the roads and the air, and so on and so forth. I will admit, I don't have the numbers off the top of my head, Brian, in terms of what the balance is, but now I'm going to go dive into that after this. I know rail is increasingly takes a preponderance of the cargo moving across the country certainly.

Brian Lehrer: Some interesting tweets and calls that we're getting from people whose perspective on this has changed since the East Palestine derailment. A listener tweets, "I live in Pat Ryan's district in Warwick. I always loved the sound of the train whistling through the middle of my town. I really hear it differently since East Palestine. I support his effort to make the train companies accountable, force them to operate safely."

Do you think a lot of people in the district-- I've had the experience just as somebody who lives in New York City, but who loves to go around the Hudson Valley, and hike and stuff sitting on the west bank of the Hudson, and sitting on the east bank of the Hudson and watching one of those long freight trains go down the west bank of the Hudson, and think that was a cool thing to look at. Now people like the listener in Warwick, who might have also felt a certain romance of the train going by and like the sound might be experiencing it definitely with new cases of the willies and things like that.

Congressman Pat Ryan: Yes. Honestly, it's a shame. That shouldn't be the case. This is not a binary choice. We should absolutely have freight rail in the country and just apply again reasonable protection so that we don't have to worry that we can understand that it's an important part of our economy. We can both move freight and keep the Hudson River safe and keep our environment safe. I will say for people that live right along these tracks, and there's 121 miles of track along the Hudson River that goes through Newburgh and Kingston and other towns in the west side of the Hudson River, this has been a perpetual issue.

Just a few years ago, there was a woman driving her car in Kingston, New York had a huge amount of debris fall off a train from a bridge, come through her windshield, and if she had been a microsecond earlier, going faster, she likely would have died. There's a long history of, unfortunately, CSX and others trying to cut corners for, I believe, pursuit of profit over safety. For people that live very proximate to the tracks, this is not actually a new challenge and worry, but I think now, to your point, Brian, it's a much more wide awareness which is good. Let's use this moment to apply some common sense reform here.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take another call from the district. Allen in Cornwall on Hudson, you're on WNYC. Hi, Allen.

Allen: Hi, can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: I can hear you.

Allen: Oh, great. I'm in that Ryan's district. We actually have these trains run literally past our backyard in Cornwall-on-Hudson, as the trains run along the Hudson River. It's always scary, we call them the bomb trains, but that was a year or two ago when there was a derailment in New Windsor, right next to the tank farm, as Pat mentioned it earlier, that had gone right instead of left, it would have ended up inside the oil tank. We think it's essential that the speed limit be reduced to five miles an hour or something like that, at least until they upgrade the braking systems.

Brian Lehrer: Congressman.

Congressman Pat Ryan: Hey, Allen. Yes, Cornwall-on-Hudson, the deal here, as you said, this comes right through a pretty significant town like many along the Hudson River. I agree with you that until we address some of these pretty egregious safety risks, we're going to have to push CSX to do the right thing. That's exactly why I wrote the letter, and certainly, that's just the first step. To be clear I'm not expecting that a letter is going to immediately change their behavior. We're going to have to push them, we're going to have to raise awareness in the public. I agree with you. I'm sorry, if I've mispronounced, I believe it was Allen.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, it's Allen.

Congressman Pat Ryan: I agree with you, Allen, in reducing that. By the way, if you want to get involved in the district, please reach out. We'd love to just connect with you and my team and getting involved as we push on this.

Brian Lehrer: One more on this with a little historical perspective, I think, and then we're going to talk about some other issues pertinent to Congress. Sheryl in SoHo, you're on WNYC. Hi, Sheryl.

Sheryl: Hi.

Brian Lehrer: SoHo is not in Congressman Ryan's Hudson Valley district, just for the record, but thanks, Sheryl.

Sheryl: Hi. I'm much a fan. Yes, briefly, Bush Jr. handed Amtrak over to CSX. As I understand it, Amtrak picked up the maintenance bills, and CSX got the profits. Anybody who takes the train up to Buffalo see signs all the way up that says, "Trespassing. You can't get off the train, and if you do, you are trespassing, and you owe serious fines and must pay them to CSX." It's adorable. Just thought you should know.

Brian Lehrer: Sheryl, thank you. Anything on that, Congressman?

Congressman Pat Ryan: Thanks, Sheryl.

Brian Lehrer: Is she right on the facts, first of all? Did Bush hand Amtrak to CSX?

Congressman Pat Ryan: I think what you're talking about, Sheryl, and I believe I'm understanding you right is, there used to be a commuter line on the west side of the Hudson River as well, there still is one on the east. That commuter line was handed over to CSX after being built and maintained by the public sector and Amtrak and federal and state and local funds for a long time. I think that's what you're saying is basically, we built this track, all of us taxpayers, then handed it over to CSX, they make a ton of profit, and then don't follow basic safety protocols. That is a long story in America, sadly, and not unique to the rail industry, as many listeners know. We're having the same issues, as I said, with our utility company, as well.

Brian Lehrer: To finish up this part of the conversation, you said something before that I didn't know; that for all the talk we're hearing from Republicans now about train safety regulation, you're saying they're not necessarily lining up to vote in Congress for the things that you and others are proposing?

Congressman Pat Ryan: We're not at the voting stage yet. We're moving as fast as we can. As we introduce legislation, and I seek Republican co-sponsors on rail safety reforms, specifically upping penalties on these rail companies, it's been very hard to find Republicans willing to sign on to that. That tells you, in my opinion, everything you need to know about where people's values are. There's plenty of time for people to get it right and come around, so I hope that they do. I'm going to do everything I can to convince them that this is in the public interest, and that we're down here to represent our constituents that are at risk, not rail companies that are making billions of dollars every year.

Brian Lehrer: All right. We will see how much this divides Republicans once it gets to the sponsorship or voting stage. Congresswoman, we just had this unusual sequence of events, as you know, where the Washington DC City Council passed a criminal justice reform bill to fight mass and excessive incarceration. The Democratic mayor of DC Muriel Bowser vetoed it, city council overrode her veto 12 to 1. The reforms would have gone into effect, but then Congress voted to override city council because Congress has a say in Washington DC urban affairs. The vote in the House was all the Republicans plus 31 Democrats who wanted to appear, or who genuinely are tough on crime in that particular way. Which way did you vote?

Congressman Pat Ryan: I was one of the 31 Democrats. I think a lot of this, who said that, for example, lowering penalties for murder, carjacking, sexual assault, is not the right direction. I will say that was a hard vote, because as a former local government official, I do not think it's actually appropriate for the federal government to come in. As Mayor Bowser had said, step on the home rule authority that pretty much every other local government has that I had when I was a county executive in the Hudson Valley.

That's the system we have, and until we get statehood for DC, which I support, I had to decide, how do we think about public safety? Having been on the ground and worked on these issues closely with law enforcement in my community, I did feel like this was an important moment to say that with crime as it is, we have to make sure we hold those committing these atrocious crimes accountable.

Brian Lehrer: You're on the same side as President Biden here, because that's the next step that I didn't mention yet. After Congress voted to overrule what DC city council did regarding its own city, President Biden could have vetoed the bill reaffirming his stance that DC should have home rule as a city not be subject to national politics as just played out in Congress. He tweeted this, "I support DC statehood and home rule, but I don't support some of the changes DC Council put forward over the mayor's objections, such as lowering penalties for carjackings." That was a tweet from President Biden's account. This is about 2024, right? The next election versus the principle of DC home rule?

Congressman Pat Ryan: I agree with what the President said. I actually think it's about listening to people on the ground, whether you're in New York City or the Hudson Valley, or I'm sure other parts of the country who are concerned about public safety. We have seen both in DC, where I spend some time now, and certainly, in New York, we've seen a huge increase in car-related crimes, thefts, carjacking. As that happens, we have to respond to the concerns and the data on the ground.

You see this happening, of course, under Mayor Adams and the city. Our local law enforcement are working hard on this and we're making sure we're giving them the tools to meet the concerns from voters. We always have elections, but I think it's much more about listening. Frankly, I was the only Democratic House member in New York, who won this year in a hard seat. There were nine competitive seats. I was the only Democrat who won. I think part of it was I talked about the fact that we have to listen to the public safety concerns of our constituents. It's always a balance, but in this case, I think we got the balance right.

Brian Lehrer: You were the only Democrat who won in the competitive districts and suburban New York. Long Island went from two Democrats, two Republicans to four Republicans. Congressman Jamaal Bowman, who was part of the squad, did retain his seat pretty easily in lower Hudson Valley in Westchester. Yes, Sean Patrick Maloney lost north of there, but you won.

Something the President might make his first veto is a bill that looks like it's getting through both houses of Congress with just enough Democrat support to limit how much retirement funds can take so-called ESG into account. That's environmental, social and governance practices of the companies, like good labor practices, or a divestment from fossil fuel companies, things like that. Here's Republican Senator Mike Braun of Indiana on why he objects to allowing companies to do this with retirement funds.

Senator Mike Braun: To me, this is a dangerous navigation, because I've done a five-year study that 2.5% differential in the return on these funds, where you're emphasizing ESG versus what is the best return, affects 152 million Americans in their retirement, 401ks about 12 trillion. Do the math, 2.5% on 12 trillion. You should not be burdened with trying to push any political agenda where you're going to impact the hard earnings that you give to someone else in trust that you're going to make the right decision.

Brian Lehrer: Senator Braun of Indiana on Fox. How did you vote on the ESG bill, Congressman?

Congressman Pat Ryan: I strongly disagree with Senator Braun and Republicans on this. I think pretty much every Democrat, I believe all Democrats supported the idea, which is ironic to me that we're the ones supporting this idea that it's about choice that the Republicans are supposedly about allowing individual choice and fiduciary responsible for making these decisions who are the experts to make a choice. The policy just allows, it doesn't require, but it allows investors and fiduciaries to say, "Hey, we might actually care that these companies or funds we're investing in are polluting our environment are allowing rail lines to derail and cause pollution," or other important issues that actually do affect the value of a company in the long term. I think this is a very disingenuous and hypocritical piece of legislation, frankly. I was proud to say that fiduciary should have this choice and if people want to factor in environmental and other concerns that they absolutely should be able to do that.

Brian Lehrer: Republicans say they're fighting what they call woke capitalism. By the way, the reason this could get through the Democratic Senate is that they got two Democrats, Joe Manchin, and John Tester, but the Republicans, they claim generally that they believe in letting the private sector function with minimal government interference, right?

Congressman Pat Ryan: Supposedly. Again, actions speak louder than words. This is the exact opposite, to your point, Brian. This is actually removing optionality and choice from fiduciaries. I don't know Senator Braun, but I'm pretty confident in saying he's not an expert in financial markets. He's not a fiduciary. Let's actually let those experts and the investors whose pension funds are involved, make that choice themselves. This is another example, by the way, of dark money groups and big mega-Republican donors that have been lobbying to pass this bill. This is the same story we see across the board. It's very similar to actually the rail safety issue we were talking about earlier.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. I guess I couldn't help but thinking if private investment funds were setting themselves up to divest from companies that practiced affirmative action or provide gender-affirming care benefits, maybe we wouldn't see Republicans so concerned about maximizing profits above all else, you think?

Congressman Pat Ryan: Exactly. Exactly. I think the good news here is after a long time of being able to cloak this under other arguments, I think the vast majority of Americans in both parties are seeing the growing consolidation of these mega-corporations. I'm certainly not casting this on all companies, but some of these ones that have tremendous power, the Amazons of the world that pay nothing in corporate tax yet are the wealthiest companies in the world.

Brian Lehrer: I know you got to go, but sometimes on the Republican argument side, the people who are invested in these funds don't have the choice whether to divest or not. If it's a big pension fund related to their union or something like that, they may not have that individual choice as to what they want to do with their 401k, and those decisions are being made for them, right?

Congressman Pat Ryan: Right. This is these fiduciaries. What I voted for, and the vast preponderance of Democrats was to give those fiduciaries the choice. Then I think good fiduciaries are actually legally required to listen to and incorporate the concerns of their customers, their investors. I think this was headed in a good direction and was going to be a positive reform. Then we see the corporate interests come in and do exactly what we're seeing play out in very disingenuous arguments from Republicans, unfortunately.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Looks like this is headed to be Joe Biden's first veto as president. Congressman Pat Ryan from the Hudson Valley, thank you so much for joining us. We always appreciate when you come on.

Congressman Pat Ryan: Oh, thank you, Brian. It was great. Have a great day.

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