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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the first weekday, when the US Senate has president Biden's Build Back Better Bill to consider as not just a concept to be debated now, but an actual piece of legislation passed by the house of representatives. In case you missed it, they passed it Friday morning. Since we can assume no Republican support, Senators Manchin and Sinema's defining moments are really upon them, and upon the country now. Which version of Build Back Better will they embrace? The one that the other 270 Democrats in Congress have all embraced, or this one that house minority leader Kevin McCarthy articulated in his eight-hour all-night floor speech before the vote?

Kevin McCarthy: Every page of all this new Washington spending, will be paid for or borrowed from you, the American hardworking taxpayer. Every page of this new Washington spending supports more waste, more fraud, more abuse, and more corruption. Every page of this new Washington spending shows just how irresponsible and out of touch the Democrats are to the challenges that America faces today.

Brian: Kevin McCarthy from his instantly infamous all-nighter, which included all kinds of ways to extend his time, including his conservative politics origin story.

Kevin McCarthy: I talk about what made me a Republican. I was in the sixth grade. I turned on the TV. I watched Jimmy Carter have a sweater on, and tell me to turn the heater down, that the best days were behind us.

Brian: Well, Carter never said the best days were behind us, but he did want Americans to conserve energy and cut down on using fossil fuels. Maybe McCarthy threw in that piece of trivia to cater specifically to Manchin and his coal-above-all-else politics, or maybe he was just riffing. I don't know, but the other option for Manchin and Sinema, the Joe Biden version of the bill, his press secretary Jen Psaki reacted on Friday to Kevin McCarthy's marathon.

Jen Psaki: In eight and a half hours, what he did not talk about was cutting the cost of childcare. Cutting the cost of eldercare. What we were going to do around the country to bring more women into the workforce, to protect our climate for generations to come. That, in our view, tells you all you need to know about Kevin McCarthy's agenda and what he supports.

Brian: White House press secretary Jen Psaki, let's start there with Washington Post congressional correspondent, Marianna Sotomayor. She mostly covers the house leadership of both parties. Marianna, thanks for starting your Thanksgiving week with us. Welcome back to WNYC.

Marianna Sotomayor: Thank you so much for having me.

Brian: Why did Kevin McCarthy pull that all-nighter in the first place? You cannot kill a bill in the house with a filibuster like you can in the Senate. He knew it would pass as soon as he went to the bathroom. Why did he do it?

Marianna Sotomayor: Well, I actually had to stay the entire eight and a half hours he was there.

Brian: No, you did, really?

Marianna Sotomayor: I did. Yes. I think I went to bed at 6:00 AM Friday morning. Very much watched the whole thing from the house chamber, and you're correct. If he sat down, if he took a pause that was way too long, if of course, he left the chamber, then he would of course no longer be able to delay consideration of the bill, and that is exactly what he was trying to do. There were two motives. He really wanted to show his Republican conference that he was going to do everything possible to delay consideration of the bill.

It wouldn't mean that the bill would never pass. We saw that happen Friday morning, but he does have to prove especially to the fierce Trump allies within his conference that he's going to do everything possible to stop Democrats from, as he puts it, passing this Socialist Government Spending bill. The other point, of course, is that he wanted to personally beat a Pelosi record.

Pelosi in 2018 spoke for eight hours and seven minutes to try and stall Republicans' push to try and undo a lot of immigration reform, and leadership is offered that ability. It's called magic minutes. It is at a time when members can only debate for one minute and it is right before you can actually start to hold several votes, but leaders are afforded the time to talk for as long as they want, basically. It's usually 10 minutes, 15 minutes, but you see, like some people say, stunts like this to try and delay the vote. He really wanted to make sure he could actually pass Pelosi's record which he did by at least half an hour.

Brian: I saw that The Post, your paper, The Washington Post published a video montage of what they labeled something like the weirdest moments from the eight hours and included that Jimmy Carter anecdote that I played. Do you know why your video editors, or maybe you, if you were the one covering it overnight, assigned to that, maybe you picked it, why was that included?

Marianna Sotomayor: I was not, but when you have these speeches that are eight-plus hours, Ted Cruz the infamous filibuster from years ago that people remember him just reading Green Eggs And Ham, and that went for even longer than eight hours. You kind of run out of things to say, so there are different compilations out there of what McCarthy talked about. He brought up Jimmy Carter an astounding amount of times, even I was surprised by it.

Some people took away or remember the fact that he talked about small carrots versus regular-size carrots because you just start vamping at some point. I wouldn't say you lose your train of thought, but you're trying to connect your points, especially that late of the night. My brain was turning off. I can't really imagine talking for eight and a half hours through the middle of the night, who knows what we would say.

Brian: I saw that moment where he said there's no such thing as baby carrots. There are only regular carrots cut up into small pieces. Is that like baby carrots or a liberal [unintelligible 00:06:45] thing? Was he actually trying to make a point like that?

Marianna Sotomayor: I believe when he said it, he was talking about agriculture and farming and just mentioned it as an aside. I don't necessarily remember if he was hitting the Democrats on carrots in particular.

Brian: On the Jimmy Carter sweaters thing, was there a global warming hoax, hello Joe Manchin, you might as well just switch parties. Why don't you do it already, kind of appeal there or is that overthinking a middle-of-the-night ramble?

Marianna Sotomayor: I don't know if it's as much targeting Manchin as much as it might be trying to remind Republicans and anyone who might have been tuning in at that hour. Republicans are very good at just clenching on something very simple to make a bigger point, and him, of course, saying that, is saying, "Wow you're going to be much colder because they're going to try and turn off, or tell you that you can't use your heater. "It goes back to that whole Republican talking point of Democrats are trying to control every single aspect of your life.

Soon, they're going to be coming after your heater. Soon you can't even control the temperature within your own home. McCarthy made that point in several ways. There was one point, of course, Democrats were jeering and laughing at him at some points in the earlier hours of this speech. At one point, one democratic member, I couldn't see who it was from my vantage point, that said you should be looking at the speaker. You should be looking at the Democrat who was presiding over the floor instead of looking over at Democrats.

Then he, McCarthy took that point throughout the night to just say, "Now I can't even believe Democrats are trying to control even where my eyeballs are. They're trying to control where I'm looking, who I should listen to." That really just delves back into that point that really has resonated among the Republican base which is Democrats are trying to control every single inch of you, and your life and your family.

Brian: Did we just hear the 2022 congressional midterm campaigns in a nutshell there from McCarthy and Jen Psaki, assuming for the moment that some version of Build Back Better gets passed. Is it going to be socialism on the march versus you don't even care about your own constituents' families?

Marianna Sotomayor: Yes. When you talk to House Democrats, especially those who represent those very swing districts, they say the biggest thing that they're going to be talking about on the campaign trail is how the Build Back Better Act is going to help families. How it is just going to alleviate multiple things in your life. You no longer have to stress about where you can put your 4-year old, your 3-year old if you have to go to work because there's going to be universal pre-K.

They're going to be talking about the child tax credit, how families are getting extra money in their bank account that can go towards paying for diapers, paying for whatever they may need. That is really how Democrats are going to be framing it. Of course, there's so much more in this $1.7 trillion bill, but the biggest takeaway for many people is that part, talking about how it's going to make your life easier, especially for your family. Healthcare is another component because that, of course, was a winning message in 2018, where you saw a number of these, as we call them, frontline vulnerable Democrats coming in with that blue wave into the house and those are the seats they're trying to protect. That's going to be the main message while Republicans, of course, they were successful with that socialist message in 2020. They're going to be talking about government overreach, government takeover, and you're not going to have any decisions in your life.

Brian: Listeners, your calls welcome here on the Build Back Better Bill or Human Infrastructure Bill, as Biden sometimes calls it, having passed the house and officially now in the lap of the Senate or anything related for Washington Post Congressional Correspondent, Marianna Sotomayor, 212-433 WNYC 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer, follow us on Twitter, I'll watch your tweets go by if you tag us.

On the point you were just making, since the main childcare and eldercare provisions of this poll so well and might seem like mom and apple pie to many people, and with the tax hikes on the top few percent and corporations that make it almost a deficit neutral bill, do you get the sense that the Republican Congressional Campaign Committee would really be running against it if it passes as a red menace or just trying to change the subject next year?

Marianna Sotomayor: They're definitely going to be campaigning against the Build Back Better. This is a two-part bill and this is two parts of what Biden has wanted. The Bipartisan Infrastructure Bill, which is now law, and the Build Back Better Act and they're not really going against the Infrastructure Bill. When you actually talk to those re-election campaign groups, they don't want to necessarily shine a spotlight on the fact that many Republicans, both in the Senate, less in the House, but they were still there, 13 of them, voted with Democrats, as a lot of the more Trump allies in the house have been saying, to give Biden a win.

They are very much trying to make sure that Republicans don't align with Biden in any bipartisan shape or form. You won't be hearing too much about them griping against the Infrastructure Bill, but that's exactly why they're really going to hold on to the Build Back Better Act, that social spending plan as the hardest thing they're going to hit on the campaign trial, and the way that they're basically framing it is, "Look at the world we live in right now. There's inflation, people have sticker shock at the grocery store. They're looking at their gas bill and that number continuing to go up at the gas pump.

How can Democrats even think about adding $1.7 trillion that's going to come out, maybe not in your taxes, but it'll come out in this way through higher inflation?" All of which is not the case, because, as you mentioned, this bill, Democrats, especially moderates who knew they were going to get attacked on the campaign trail, knew that they had to push to make sure it was deficit neutral, make sure it was all paid for.

Now some of that is going to be massaged out a little bit more in the Senate to make sure that is the case. Of course, this bill will undergo some changes there, but Republicans are really going to try and tag it through this more blanket way, reminding them this is big government, it's going to hurt you. Some voters are already resonating with that point of view, especially now with this uncertain economy.

Brian: I guess the Republicans are going to find some line or two in the bill that looks like an outrage of government control over some thing or another and try to focus on that, rather than that it has Universal Childcare, Universal Pre-K, more home health aides for the infirm elderly, and those other things that a lot of people will perceive as benefits. Did you hear the moment in the McCarthy speech when he said nobody elected Joe Biden to be FDR and AOC shot back, "I did."

Marianna Sotomayor: Yes. There was another member who said, "Me too."

Brian: Missed that. I wonder if that also breaks out next year's then, like pro or anti-Biden as FDR, pro or anti-FDR as relevant to today's economy and today's middle-class struggles. Whether that's what a chronically middle-class challenged America wants. You think FDR is going to be a factor in next year's race if Build Back Better passes?

Marianna Sotomayor: Maybe FDR symbolizing the big reforms that are to come. One thing that Democrats are very much cognizant of is the fact that some of these provisions, even if this is signed into law next month or early January, I know Congress is really pushing for this becoming law in December, a lot of these provisions aren't actually going to be installed or felt yet by the American public for some time and that is a concern for some of these more vulnerable Democrats, of course, in swing districts.

Because they don't want to over-promise, they can start selling what's in the bill. They can start saying, "This is what you're going to get," but talking to a number of those members, they say, "We have to be realistic too, because there could be potentially backlash if you're telling them you're going to get this, you're going to get--" hearing benefits from Medicare, you're going to get all these number of things, but if voters don't feel that necessarily, they could blame Democrats for lying or not working fast enough for them to be able to receive those things, even though it's coming.

That is a potential issue some Democrats are talking about, and how to strategize and campaign in an effective way so that this big government approach that some people may already be talking about, they don't say, "Oh my gosh, all this money was allotted to something, but we, as voters, aren't feeling it. Where did that money go?" There is still a little skepticism.

Brian: Is Obamacare an example from recent history of what you were just saying? I have a tweet from a listener that says, "Is GOP freaking out about Build Back Better based on how America has embraced Obamacare?" If we remember 2010, Obama's first midterm elections, the Democrats lost control of Congress just after Obamacare passed. I think it's fair to say that by the end of this past decade came about, Republicans were shrinking from repeal and replace because Obamacare had become pretty popular. Would you look at it that way? Is that a timeline that concerns the Democrats or encourages the Democrats and the Republicans vice versa?

Marianna Sotomayor: It depends on who you ask on the democratic side. Everyone is in agreement that yes, in a couple congressional midterms from now, it'll likely play out in a similar way, where all of these benefits will be felt. If Republicans go on a repeal and replace type of message, a lot of voters who are now feeling those benefits may not want any of those repeals to happen. Republicans do feel confident that they're going to win messaging in the short term.

Just right now, leading up to 2022, if we're still dealing with inflation and a lot of these benefits aren't being felt, Republicans do see an advantage there. Democrats recognize that they might have that, but that's why Democrats also on the campaign trail really need to hammer and they know that they haven't done this well so far, they do acknowledge that they need to tell voters, "We, Democrats, are the ones who are giving you this. Don't forget that we are the ones, several years from now when you see those changes, when you see these new bridges, when you see all of this now affecting your life, that was Democrats, Democrats did that solely."

In some ways, they're also preparing for the next couple of elections, where, at some point, you might see that mirror of 2018 where healthcare, Obamacare really became the message for Democrats in the midterms that help them win. "Republicans are going to take that away if you elect them. This is a Democratic Signature Bill, so keep us there because we can legislate."

Brian: Listener Judy tweets, "Is there any irony in the fact that the Republicans are passing laws that restrict a woman's right to choose? That is actual big government." When we come back, we haven't even gotten yet to the Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema politics of this and how that may or may not have changed now that the house has actually passed the bill. We'll continue with Marianna Sotomayor and take your phone calls and more tweets as well, 212-433, WNYC, Marianna, Washington Post Congressional Correspondent, stay with us.

Brian Lehrer on WNYC with Washington Post Congressional Correspondent, Marianna Sotomayor, as we talk about this moment when the Build Back Better Human Infrastructure Bill has actually passed the house and now gone to the Senate where it's going to land even more squarely in Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema's laps, since we can assume no Republican yes vote. We can assume no Republican yes votes, right? 13 voted for physical infrastructure in the house.

Marianna Sotomayor: Yes. This is going to be just Democrats only and they've known that since the beginning on this Human Infrastructure Bill.

Brian: Before we leave Kevin McCarthy entirely and that all-nighter on the house floor, he also referred during his speech to getting a call from Donald Trump. It's easy to forget that back on January 6th, McCarthy held Trump explicitly responsible in a speech from the House floor for the insurrection that threatened the lives of he and his colleagues in the capital. How far has he come from that position?

Marianna Sotomayor: You've definitely seen a change. He was very critical of Trump and Trump supporters the evening of January 6th, but he really wants to be speaker of the house if Republicans are able to win the majority during the next midterms. In order to get there, you have to win that very Trump loyalist base, of course that's Marjorie Taylor-Greene, Lauren Boebert of Colorado, and Matt Gaetz of Florida. A number of them, it's a small group, but they could potentially grow, especially now that we're seeing a lot of redistricting, much more partisan districts and many Republican candidates running on that Trump America-First message.

He knows he needs those people in order to be speaker, and last week, in light of all of these different things happening within the Republican conference, my colleagues and I were asking those members specifically, "Would you vote for Kevin McCarthy for speaker?" Marjorie Taylor-Greene was one of the first ones to say that she didn't know yet. They didn't want to answer that question, for her, it was, "I'm not seeing a lot of leadership yet, the leaders aren't necessarily defending people like me.

We're the ones who really resonate with the American public, with the Republican base," so that has been a big motivator for him to not necessarily punish Congressman Paul Gosar or even Greene for repeated outlandish remarks, or in Gosar's case, that violent video. That's why you've seen him be more cautious, and you've also seen it on his staff side. They have also been more cautious in talking to reporters. In previous years, they were definitely a little bit more open, and it's all because they have an eye on that singular mission, which is for him to become the speaker of the house.

Brian: That Gosar snuff video, I've seen it called, in which an animated version of himself literally murders AOC and it's going next after Biden. Yet I hear talk that if the Republicans do take the house next year, McCarthy can expect a serious challenge from some of those most right-wing members like Jim Jordan, I've heard that name. People know who he is from the impeachment hearings, if nothing else, or Steve Scalise. How do you assess the politics of that potential scenario?

Marianna Sotomayor: Kevin McCarthy of course wanted to be speaker several years ago. This is before Paul Ryan became speaker and the number one person to say that McCarthy wasn't ready, that he's not good enough to lead the caucus, was Jim Jordan. Since that time, McCarthy has been working that relationship with Jordan, and they're actually very close friends now to the point where no one sees Jordan as a credible threat to McCarthy.

They don't think that he actually will try and just make sure that he's no longer in the run for the speakership. That threat, of course, does now come from that very pro-Trump base, no one has thrown their name out there, no one has said, "I'm going to run or challenge him," we are still some time away from that and they know that. That is likely where you could potentially see any kind of challenge, but something else which is a surprise, but as we know, anything can happen in politics.

A lot of that pro-Trump base has actually been saying, "Hey, why don't we elect Trump to be speaker of the house?" That has been a small cry, but it's growing, and fun fact, literally any American citizen can become speaker of the house if they have the votes. That would be a whole different thing to cover. We're a ways away from that news cycle, but it is a growing want for this pro-Trump caucus.

Brian: Do you take that seriously? Because we've talked about it on the show before with another reporter, but it was a few months ago, who took it as just talk, that since any person, whether or not they're in the house of representatives can be named speaker by the majority, that they would actually elect Donald Trump speaker of the house if they win the next year. How seriously do you take that?

Marianna Sotomayor: As of right now, it is just talk, but if you can even imagine a scenario, then there could be a possibility of that. If you do get more of these pro-Trump candidates who just want Trump as their leader, whether it's in the house, or whether it is as another presidential candidate, could that cry grow louder? Sure. I don't know if we're at the point yet to be able to say whether this is actually going to play out, but as we've learned with Trump's own candidacy and him becoming president, if you don't take some of these things seriously, or don't keep an eye on them, things may surprise you.

Brian: How much power would he have as speaker of the house, but not a member of Congress?

Marianna Sotomayor: It really would depend on his own conference, which of course, they would have named him to be a speaker, so he would have that influence. What it would be like to work across the aisle, that likely wouldn't happen.

Brian: Which is what, is it deciding who goes on what committees, is it deciding what bills come to the floor, what actual power would he have, if you know?

Marianna Sotomayor: Committee assignments is big, the leader himself is part of the gang of eight or sometimes the gang of four, but as a top leader, so you would get all of the top intelligence briefings on an array of issues. You're usually one of the first people briefed, besides the president, on other issues that doesn't have to deal with intelligence, so you are actively in a place where you can make those decisions. Of course, the bills that come to the floor, potentially removing Democrats from their own committees, those are some of the positions of power that a speaker definitely has.

Brian: Marianna Sotomayor with us, Washington Post Congressional correspondent who should get-- I don't know if The Post has some kind of award for pulling an all-nighter to hear Kevin McCarthy on the house floor give an eight-hour filibuster speech before the build back better human infrastructure vote, but listeners, she did it. She stayed up all night, watched the whole thing, reported the whole thing, she was assigned. I'm assuming you were assigned, this is not necessarily the first choice of [unintelligible 00:27:44] but there you go, in case you didn't know the context, this is a badge that she now gets to wear at The Washington Post offices. We're going to make the turn to Manchin and Sinema now, through Vicky in Tudor city. Vicky, you are on WNYC, hello?

Vicky: Oh, good morning. Thank you for such a great discussion. I caught the wind of McCarthy's fear-mongering that all of this expense is going to come from the tax payer and the middle class and the lower middle class, but wasn't it Kyrsten Sinema who really balked about any of these monies coming from taxes for businesses that are earning in the millions and the 1 and 2% who are not sufficiently taxed?

Marianna Sotomayor: Yes, that is correct. It was interesting to actually see Joe Manchin, he was really big on, initially when he was saying, "These are the things I want," he wanted a full repeal of the Trump tax law. He said that that was [unintelligible 00:28:54] made, quickly made, it was not good legislation, and you actually saw Sinema who has definitely shown her own wish list to the White House, she's been more quiet than Manchin.

She said that she didn't want to see businesses taxed to a higher rate, she didn't want to go back to those pre-Trump era taxes for corporations, for big businesses, so, definitely, it was a challenge for Democrats who all essentially were united in raising taxes for the billionaires, the very wealthy, and the corporations, and she was the one that forced Democrats to try and find a different way to do that.

Brian: I guess we should say though, on that point, that the real math, and I think I've talked about this before, not only the media, but I think the Democrats themselves frequently fail to articulate the actual spending that would be involved in this bill. Even before we get to how much it's paid for by those tax increases, people keep saying the $1.75 trillion bill, that's over 10 years. Each year, it's only, and we can say only in the context of the size of the federal government annual budget, 175 billion, because that's a 10-year bill. The military gets what? 800 billion every year, and this to add universal pre-K, other childcare, eldercare, the other things in the bill. I don't know that they message that very well in terms of putting the right number on it. Does this passage in the House, the actual passage in the House, change anything for Sinema and Manchin in terms of the politics?

Marianna Sotomayor: Well, we might see a more outspoken Sinema. She has privately told House members for a while and recently in an interview with The Washington Post, that she didn't want to necessarily say more than she needed to while the House was doing their considerations. It was a respect for, let the House figure it out. The House, of course, was definitely wanting the input of Manchin and Sinema so that they could send a bill over that wasn't going to change too much. There are some things that we already know are likely to change.

The paid family leave, Manchin is firmly opposed to that. Of course, senators and members will still try and work him on that. Sinema is actually someone who does want to see that provision stay, but that could likely be stripped out to make sure that you do get Manchin's vote for the rest of it. A lot of it is in the Senate parliamentarians' hands, just to see what matches up to the budgetary rules, to make sure that this can pass in what we call a vehicle known as reconciliation, which will only allow for Democratic votes to pass this.

One of the things that are likely going to fall out because of that parliamentarian scrub, is immigration. That is $110 billion that's going to be allotted to work permits which would essentially allow undocumented immigrants, it does not give them a pathway to citizenship, but it also prevents them from deportation. It gives them the ability to work and potentially travel home.

That is likely going to be taken out and that is probably the biggest issue that could affect how this passes in the House, because, of course, a changed bill is going to go back to the house. There are three Democrats, Hispanic members, who say that they can't vote for this bill if it doesn't address immigration in some form. That is definitely something that we will keep an eye on.

Brian: There's negotiation yet to come, obviously. Hey, before you go, Marianna, our next segment is going to be about the larger implications of the Kyle Rittenhouse verdict. I see that Congressman Matt Gaetz, has said he wants to offer Rittenhouse an internship, and Paul Gosar, who we just talked about, fresh from his snuff film animation showing him murdering AOC and going for Biden next, Gosar tweeted out a poll to his followers, I see, asking if Rittenhouse should get a congressional medal of honor. Of course, that goes beyond agreeing that he was acting in self-defense in a tough situation, to implying support for more armed white vigilantism as a concept. Is Leader McCarthy or anyone else questioning that?

Marianna Sotomayor: Well, I don't think that McCarthy would go as far to give Rittenhouse a medal of honor. Might be different if Trump were speaker. You have seen this emergence of different Republican members in the House jockeying to see who can get Rittenhouse as an intern, you mentioned a couple of names there. I don't believe, I'm not fully sure if leadership can prevent a staffer from serving in someone's office. I don't know exactly how that works, it might have to go through ethics committees to really make sure someone is removed. If such an internship were to be offered and he accepts, there could be the scenario where he could be a House intern.

Brian: Marianna Sotomayor covers Congress, especially the House leadership of both parties for The Washington Post. Thank you so much for joining us.

Marianna Sotomayor: Thanks so much for having me.

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