Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. First of all, today, though words are not sufficient, our condolences to anyone who has lost someone you knew personally in the terrorist attack on Israel or the Israeli military response. Of course, none of it's over. We acknowledge the fear and more losses to come how horrible that, for example, a music festival and other civilian targets were hit. There are hostages still by all reports. Even in a justified military response, the loss of life in Gaza is also a tragedy, especially of civilians there too.

Our condolences and sympathies and hopes for peace as soon as possible, as little good as it does to even say the words, but just to acknowledge everybody's pain and horror at the outset today. Among those reacting is the House Minority Leader, Hakeem Jeffries, who joins us now, the Democrat from Brooklyn and Queens, who was already scheduled to be with us today to talk about the chaos in the House of Representatives and the path forward to avoid a government shutdown by the latest deadline in the middle of next month in this country. Even the possibility, slim though it may be, it's not zero, that a coalition government could wind up with him being the next speaker in the House of Representatives.

Over the weekend, Jeffries released a statement saying, "America stands firmly and unequivocally with Israel. We will strongly support Israel's right to defend herself from this despicable attack that targeted civilians, including Israeli children, with rockets, gunfire, and violent kidnappings. The Congress must stand with Israel until the invasion by Hamas has been crushed and security in southern Israel and throughout the country has been permanently restored," from Hakeem Jeffries, who does join us now. Leader Jeffries, always good to have you on the show and in a different world than we thought we'd be in when we confirmed this appearance on Friday. Welcome back to WNYC.

Hakeem Jeffries: Good morning, Brian. Good to be with you as always.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, your calls, welcome for House Minority Leader and Brooklyn and Queen's Congressman, Hakeem Jeffries, on the US response to the new Israel-Hamas war, the US response in particular, also the leadership chaos in the House of Representatives, yes, and still looming government shutdown or anything else relevant to Leader Jeffries, 212-433-WNYC. Call or text 212-433-9692. Leader Jeffries, foreign policy is basically the domain of the executive branch. What do you see as the role of Congress?

Hakeem Jeffries: Well, it's important that Congress speak in one voice in terms of expressing our sympathy for the loss of life that has occurred in Israel, in the region, the difficulty that has been visited upon the people of Israel, particularly, as you've indicated, civilians targeted at a music festival, individuals slaughtered throughout southern Israel, and what was a clear and concerted terrorist attack.

I think from the congressional point of view, we've always made it clear that Israel is one of our closest friends and allies throughout the world. We have a special relationship between our two countries. It's anchored, of course, in shared values and shared strategic interests, and friends stand by friends in a moment of great turbulence, trauma, and turmoil. That is what Israel is confronting right now as a result of Hamas's attack.

Brian Lehrer: That's as a matter of words. Does the fact that there is currently no Speaker of the House matter to the US's ability to respond in any way that's concrete?

Hakeem Jeffries: Well, the administration is in close coordination with the Israeli government in terms of trying to provide support that the administration is currently capable of doing under law. There may come a time down the road, perhaps sooner rather than later, where there may be an additional supplemental emergency request from the administration to the Congress as has been the case, for instance, with the Ukraine and Taiwan. That will be a request that the Congress is going to have to take up.

Certainly, the chaos that has been visited upon the House of Representatives by the extremism of the House Republican Conference from the very beginning of January through this very moment complicates things right now. It's our hope that the Republicans are going to resolve their internal issues this week so we can come together in a bipartisan way and work on all of the challenges that the American people confront here in this great country and that we can stand with our allies during their time of need in Israel, in Taiwan, in Ukraine, and throughout the world.

Brian Lehrer: There is an interim speaker. Presumably, he could bring bills to the floor. Are you advocating more monetary aid to Israel right now? If so, a specific amount?

Hakeem Jeffries: Well, specifically, we're going to wait for the administration, which is in close conversation with the Israeli government to determine and assess what the needs are, what the administration is currently capable of doing, and what the supplemental needs may be that could require additional appropriations.

It does seem to me that because the defensive systems in Israel have been so heavily taxed by the barrage, almost unprecedented barrage in terms of its intensity of missiles fired at Israel by Hamas, that the Iron Dome system, David's Arrow, David's Sling, these defensive systems that, as many people have pointed out, you know, are designed to benefit civilians all across the region and hopefully minimizing the civilian casualties.

Those defensive systems have been overwhelmed and there likely will be a need to provide additional support in that regard and perhaps in other areas. I think the most responsible thing that we can do within the Congress is to await the outcome of the conversations between our government and the Israeli government in terms of what the needs are moving forward.

Brian Lehrer: Your colleague from Brooklyn, Dan Goldman, Congressman Goldman, was in Israel when the attacks began. I understand he's back in the US safely now. Have you gotten a chance to speak to him yet and hear about whatever his experience was? I heard a reference to him taking shelter at one point in a hotel stairway.

Hakeem Jeffries: Yes, we have connected. I'm thankful that Dan and his family are back safely. They were attending a bar mitzvah when Israel came under attack and were forced to shelter in place. They have been able to get back on the ground back home in New York City. We're thankful for that. I think Senator Booker was also in the region at the time and needed to be evacuated.

We still have thousands of Americans, many of whom are dual citizens who are in Israel, who are facing very challenging conditions. I think all of our offices are working as hard as we can to make sure that those who need to leave, who want to leave, who are trying to get back home to New York City and throughout the country, that we're doing everything possible to facilitate that notwithstanding the very challenging transportation situation that exists in Israel.

Brian Lehrer: Your statement that I quoted from was unequivocal in support of Israel at this moment when they've come under this surprise attack that has purposely gone after civilians. 700 dead is the number I'm seeing in a country of just 10 million. An Israeli official was on Morning Edition today saying, "As a proportion of the population, it's like 10 9/11s." Many Palestinians say an underlying issue is still Israel's ever-tightening and lengthening occupation in the West Bank and control over Gaza and not to condone terrorism in any way, but these as underlying conditions should also at least be addressed by people in positions like yours. What would you say to listeners who feel that way?

Hakeem Jeffries: Well, Hamas is a terrorist organization as its despicable, inhumane, and barbaric actions just illustrated in terms of its attack on Israel targeting intentionally civilians, violently kidnapping children, young people, seniors, women, and others who are now being held in Gaza in horrific, horrifying conditions. Hamas has to be defeated. That's period, full stop.

The United States needs to unequivocally and will stand with Israel in its effort to defeat Hamas for the good of the people of Israel, for the good of the civilians in Gaza, and for the entire region. There is no redeeming quality to Hamas. Now, in terms of the broader dynamics within the region, I think it's important to understand apparently why Hamas struck at this moment because there was an effort that was being negotiated by the United States and Saudi Arabia to perhaps enter into some normalization with Israel that would have, as part of the discussions, resulted in taking some steps toward significantly improving the conditions of the Palestinian people and hopefully marching toward an eventual peace.

Hamas clearly wanted to disrupt that step from being taken. Now, it's my understanding based on some of the unsecured briefings that we've had over the weekend with the National Security Council that Secretary Blinken has been in touch with President Abbas in terms of the situation in the West Bank, which has remained calm. Hamas has also targeted the Palestinian authority and its leadership. It's a complex situation in the region but important to understand that Hamas is a very distinct and bad actor that must be decisively defeated.

Brian Lehrer: Has there been a flaw in the US policy that you were just referring to, to encourage normalization between Saudi Arabia and other Arab states and Israel in recent years under both Biden and Trump? I hear you saying and Secretary of State Blinken said this also on Meet the Press yesterday that one leading theory that they have is that Hamas and also perhaps its ally in Iran staged this attack right now to disrupt those talks with Saudi Arabia to normalize relations with Israel. Is it possible that the US isn't conditioning that normalization enough on resolution of the status of the Palestinians leading to greater frustration and more ability, let's say, of a rejectionist group like Hamas to recruit supporters?

Hakeem Jeffries: It's my understanding and expectation that the status of the Palestinian-Israeli question was going to be and had been an important part of the discussions taking place involving Israel, the United States, and Saudi Arabia, and that everybody in the region understood that were the step to be taken toward normalization of the relationship between Saudi Arabia and Israel will be game-changing in a variety of ways, but that necessarily needed to lead to an improvement in the situation related to peace between Israel and the Palestinian people.

I think what was clear is that Iran, which is, of course, the largest state sponsor of terror in the world, Hamas and Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, all subsidiaries of Iran. We'll have to see what the intelligence eventually shows in terms of Iran's involvement in the Hamas attack. It is clear that Iran, which views Saudi Arabia as a rival, had every interest in the world to disrupt any efforts toward normalization in terms of resolving some of the challenges that understandably and sharply have been raised in the context of the condition of people in the West Bank and the absence of a robust piece that has existed.

That should be the objective of everyone in the world, certainly everyone in the region, and has been the stated policy of the United States of America, which I strongly support, which is the achievement of a robust, two-state solution that can eventually be brought about where Israel and the demilitarized Palestinian state are able to live in peace and prosperity side by side, next to each other in a manner that allows for Israel's safety and security to be robustly sustained and that of everyone within the region.

Brian Lehrer: Deborah in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with Brooklyn and Queens Congressman and House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries. Hello, Deborah.

Deborah: Hello. Thank you so much for taking my call. I'm in a [unintelligible 00:15:47] speaking as a Jewish-American woman. I think, Hakeem Jeffries, I ask you to not look at at this in Asia's historical way. This attack from Hamas, who I do not support in any way, did not come from nowhere. It comes from decades of oppression of the Palestinian people. Israel has been at war with the Palestinian people. The two million people in Gaza have been living in prison-like environment, electricity for four hours a day, limits on their movements, inability to get health care, attacks.

It's now being led unprecedentedly by an extremist right-wing leader, Netanyahu, who has escalated attacks on the Palestinian people, denying them of basic human rights. Most importantly, the US funding has allowed this to happen. Israel could not continue this without US funding and funding of the extremist person. I'll conclude by saying that the only way to peace is by stopping US funding, by allowing peace through stopping the oppression of the Palestinian people. I beg the US Congress and Hakeem Jeffries to look at that. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Leader Jeffries?

Hakeem Jeffries: I think it's important to understand that the special relationship that exists between the United States and Israel runs between our two countries and our people as has been the case in America with different governments that may be in place at one time or the other. There are going to be moments of disagreement that exist with whatever governing coalitions may exist in America and Israel at a given point in time.

We certainly strongly disagreed with the prior administration and the presidency of the person who previously occupied the Oval Office repeatedly and justifiably in my view. Certainly, at a moment like this when our close friend, our ally, has been attacked in an unprovoked, unprecedented, and unconscionable way, it's important for us to make clear that our commitment to the safety and security of Israel is ironclad.

There are a whole host of complicated issues that certainly need to be resolved in the context of the question of, "How do we get to a lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinian people?" As I've indicated, our position as a United States government, in my view, should firmly continue to be, we have to find a path toward a lasting two-state solution. However, at this particular moment, there needs to be a recognition that Israel lives in one of the toughest neighborhoods in the world.

Hamas and Gaza, Hezbollah, another terrorist organization to the north, chaos in Syria, dangerous situation to the south in the Sinai, Iran with nuclear aspirations, largest state sponsor of terror. The big bully in the neighborhood threatening to wipe Israel off the face of the map refers to Israel as the little Satan and the United States as the great Satan. This is the reality of the neighborhood that Israel lives in. Certainly, I think it will continue to be important to make sure that Israel has the resources necessary to be able to defend herself. It's not theoretical that Israel would be attacked and is under threat. It's not theoretical and we've just seen that in an extraordinary way.

Brian Lehrer: One more question on this, then we'll go to the leadership situation in the House. The Israeli government announced a short time ago that they are now cutting off electricity, other fuel, plus food and water to Gaza. Food and water. That obviously would affect the civilian population. Do you see that as necessary to cripple Hamas's military capacity or merely as punishment of civilians?

Hakeem Jeffries: I think that is going to have to be examined. I don't know the rationale as to why that has happened. I also don't know whether food, water, and electricity in the context of the civilian population will be accessible through the crossing that exists between Gaza and Egypt. That is something that we'll have to take a look at. At this moment in time, it's very difficult to comment on the strategic reasons as to why that is necessary, and certainly the implications.

We do want to get to a place where civilian casualties are minimized, if not eliminated, and that should be the objective and I believe will be the objective of the Israeli government in terms of how it conducts itself. Any military operation, obviously, that is carried out by an actual government and actual military will proceed in that fashion, but Hamas is operating from a very different set of rules as a terrorist organization and we just saw that this past Saturday.

Brian Lehrer: Changing topics now. If you're just joining us, our guest is Brooklyn Congressman. I've been mistakenly saying Brooklyn and Queens Congressman. I guess the last redistricting took that little piece of Queens out of his district, so it's Brooklyn Congressman and, of course, House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries. I'm going to let Giordana in Manhattan make the segue here to topic two because I think that's what you're calling in about, Giordana, right? You're on WNYC. Hello.

Giordana: Yes. Hi, Brian. Love your show. Speaker Jeffries, I am a proud progressive Democrat. I would love nothing more than for you to be Speaker of the House, but that's not going to happen. Can you, please, tell me why you guys aren't actively working with moderate Republicans to get one of the few sane Republicans elected Speaker of the House? Otherwise, we're going to be just cutting off our nose to spite our face and wind up with someone as horrible as Jim Jordan.

Hakeem Jeffries: Well, thank you, Giordana, for calling in and for raising a very important question. We've made clear from the very beginning of this Congress, starting on January 3rd, that we were ready, willing, and able to find common ground with our Republican colleagues whenever and wherever possible to get bipartisan things done that are going to make life better for everyday Americans. That is our objective, improve the quality of life for the American people, and navigating through all the challenges that the American people confront.

We also made clear that we will push back against Republican extremism as it relates to reproductive freedom and in every other area, including democracy whenever necessary. Now, in the context of what is in front of us at the moment, which is visited upon the Congress in the country because of the Republican civil war that has been raging throughout the entirety of this year, we have said that the most viable path forward is to enter into a bipartisan coalition of the willing, where you can have up or down votes on the floor of the House with respect to bills that have support from Democrats and Republicans but, up until this point, have largely been blocked by the extremists within the House Republican Conference.

What that looks like in terms of whether you have some more traditional conservatives within the House Republican Conference being willing to enter into some form of partnership with us remains to be seen. Those conversations at different levels throughout the House are ongoing. We will continue to make clear that we seek a bipartisan path forward. All that needs to happen is that the extremists within the House Republican Conference are isolated and put on an island and common-sense Republicans come join us.

Brian Lehrer: Is that to say as the caller suggests that you would try to offer some Democratic votes for a more moderate Republican speaker, or is that to say you're hoping a few moderate Republicans will join all the Democrats and vote for you for speaker?

Hakeem Jeffries: Well, we don't believe that change should be focused on any one individual but that you bring about fundamental change within the institution of the House of Representatives by changing the rules of engagement that are designed right now based on the deals that were cut in the beginning of January to give the extremists, on the Rules Committee and throughout the House Republican Conference, the dominant voice in the House.

Brian, it's important to note that every single thing that has happened that has been meaningful during this Congress has occurred because Democrats provided the majority of votes in the House to get bills over the finish line. It was Democrats who provided a majority of the votes to avoid a catastrophic default in May that would have crashed the US economy and hurt so many people.

It was Democrats who provided the majority of votes in the House to narrowly avoid a government shutdown and make sure that we were continuing the funding of government in a way that met the needs to help the safety, the economic well-being needs of the American people. That's the fundamental reality of the situation in the House right now. All we're saying is, as opposed to careening from one emergency to the next, let's change the rules of the House so that we can facilitate bipartisan cooperation and isolate the growing number of extremists who are within the House Republican Conference.

Brian Lehrer: Just to be clear, are you saying that if they change the rule to make it harder to eject a speaker of the House from that chair that then you would trying to get some Democrats to vote for the candidate who represents that position?

Hakeem Jeffries: Well, we haven't really been able to have that conversation amongst the House Democratic Caucus. I don't want to get out ahead of the House Democrats who've thoughtfully approached this from the very beginning. What I will say, however, is that we shouldn't focus on any individual. It is the responsibility of the majority party to get to 217 votes.

They are struggling to do that or struggling to maintain that 217 being the number because there are two vacancies in the House right now. What we need the Republicans to simply decide to do is to break from the extremism that has been running rampant in the House since they all came back to the floor of the House in the aftermath of the violent insurrection. A majority of them voted to sustain the big lie and not certify the election of Joe Biden. It's been rough sledding in the House ever since.

Brian Lehrer: I don't know if you've seen the article in The New Republic, which acknowledges that it's a long shot but lays out how it could happen that you could be elected speaker, which is that it would take only about five Republicans voting for you, assuming all 212 Democrats do and they lay out a few particular paths like a few Republicans from very Biden-voting swing districts or a few Republicans who are retiring anyway and have nothing to lose if they're disgusted with the Matt Gaetz-Jim Jordan wing of the party.

I wonder, because it sounds to me like you're distancing yourself from that scenario, but is there anything that you could offer to Republicans after McCarthy failed to offer the Democrats anything for a few votes to keep him in power? Is there anything you could offer Republicans that would incentivize them to vote for you?

Hakeem Jeffries: That's certainly not something that I've explored or necessarily planned to explore because I think the most important thing, all we want at the end of the day is for the House to be able to function, for the Republicans to break away from the extremism, in the chaos, and dysfunction so we can solve problems on behalf of everyday Americans. The only way that's going to happen in this current iteration of the Congress is to do it in a bipartisan fashion. The Republicans will have the responsibility to try to figure this out in the next few days.

We are ready, willing, and able to enter into an enlightened form of government that is designed to make a difference for everyday Americans fundamentally to put people over politics and to fight for the things that matter, right? Lowering costs, better-paying jobs, safer communities, a healthy economy, making sure we deal with the cost-of-living issues that exist all across the land, build upon the progress that President Biden has made. That's all we want at the end of the day. We can put our heads together to figure out what that looks like in terms of the actual governance and leadership structure, but it should start from a place of trying to do what's right for the American people.

Brian Lehrer: Last question and I know you got to go in a minute. Another way for you to become speaker is for the Democrats to win the House next year. That road runs through the New York suburbs as you know, where there were a handful of losses to Republicans in 2022 that made the difference. Much of that was over voters' perceptions of crime and inflation. Now, we have the asylum-seeker influx to boot, generally considered an issue that favors Republicans. Talk to the listeners for your final answer from the Greater New York region in those Long Island and Westchester and Rockland and other points, north suburbs, and New Jersey. Why would your party better represent them in your view?

Hakeem Jeffries: Well, what's incredibly important is to know that everything is on the line in November of 2024. Social Security is on the ballot. Medicare is on the ballot. We believe that Social Security and Medicare are fundamental parts of the great American dream. My Republican colleagues want to end Social Security and Medicare as we know it. Gun safety will be on the ballot in November of 2024. We believe it's time to deal with the gun violence epidemic with the fierce urgency of now.

My Republican colleagues continue to flood our communities with weapons of war or bury their heads in the sand. We believe in a woman's freedom to make her own reproductive healthcare decisions. My Republican colleagues here in New York and across the country want to criminalize abortion care and march us toward a nationwide ban. We believe in democracy and the importance of these American values of government of the people by the people and for the people as opposed to bending the knee to a single individual, the insurrectionist in chief.

All of these existential issues will be on the ballot in November of 2024 and many more. Democrats, I believe, share the values of the people of New York and the people of America in terms of trying to get us to a better place. That's why we're going to fight hard to win back the House in November of 2024 and continue America's long, necessary, and majestic march toward a more perfect union.

Brian Lehrer: Brooklyn Congressman and House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, we always appreciate when you come on with us. Thank you so much.

Hakeem Jeffries: Thank you so much, Brian.

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