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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good Monday morning, everyone. Have you seen the cover of this week's New York Magazine, yet? The headline is The Calmest Democrats in the Country. Then the subhead is, "Despite terrible polls and panic pundits, the mood inside Biden headquarters is chill." We will have the writer of that story New York Mags, national Political Correspondent, Gabriel Debenedetti on today's show. Is the Biden team like an ostrich with its head in the sand, or is everyone else running around mindlessly like a chicken without a head? Choose your fine-feathered creature metaphor and we'll discuss.

We'll touch on Biden's presumed opponent, Donald Trump, basically quoting from Hitler's Mein Kampf. Have you heard this one yet and what is probably his worst, and I'll say it, most fascist slur yet against immigrants in general? We don't often play inflammatory Trump clips, as most of you know but we will today and get reaction from a New York congressman because some things just can't go ignored, especially just after Trump promised to be a dictator on the subject in those other recent interviews that you probably heard about.

Today also New York State Assembly, Zohran Mamdani will be with us. He's sponsoring that legislation that's making news now that would end the New York City property tax exemption for Columbia University and NYU because they are among the top 10 property owners in the city. He would characterize them as some of the city's biggest landlords, not what the non-profit exemption was intended for, Mamdani will say. He wants to collect property taxes from Columbia and NYU and give the money to public higher education, specifically to CUNY. Zohran Mamdani coming up.

WNYC's George Bodarky today on his current project, going around Queens and collecting holiday season food memoirs from Queens Heights whose families come from many different parts of the world. It's Queens from so many different parts of the world, food memoirs. That'll definitely be some holiday fun at the end of the show. With me now, Congressman Gregory Meeks from Southeast Queens. He's in the news for two important reasons right now. He is the ranking Democrat on the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

He was chair of that committee when Democrats had the majority, and he has a lot to say now about the negotiations in Congress on Ukraine and Israel Military aid in exchange for some possibly much tougher immigration policies. We'll get his take on the Biden administration ramping up pressure on Israel now too, to do more to protect civilians in Gaza and get his reaction to Donald Trump channeling actual Adolf Hitler language from Mein Kampf, talking about immigrants and immigration this weekend.

Meeks is also chairman of the Queen's Democratic Party. This is the second big thing. He's in the news for having a say in picking Tom Suozzi to be their nominee in a special election to replace George Santos in Congress. There is no primary in a special election, the party leaders pick the candidates.

The Republican nominee has also been named and will get Meeks's early take on the post-George Santos world. Meeks himself has been in the house since 1998 from the district that includes Jamaica, St. Albans, the Rockaways, Laurelton, other neighborhoods around there. Congressman, we always appreciate when you come on with us. Welcome back to WNYC.

Congressman Gregory Meeks: Brian, it's always great to be with you.

Brian Lehrer: Let's start with your Queen County Democratic Party Chair hat on. The special election is on February 13th. Listeners, if you're in that district on the day before Valentine's Day, if you're in Northeast Queens and the North Shore of Nassau County in a little bit of Southern Nassau County, you'll get to declare your love on the day before Valentine's Day for one candidate or the other. Why'd you pick Tom Suozzi to be your party's nominee?

Congressman Gregory Meeks: Tom Suozzi is a person that the individuals in the third congressional district know. He has represented them previously in that seat. He's represented the county, Nassau County in as the executive of the county as well as mayor in the county. Tom Suozzi is someone that you know and who stands for the same values as the individuals in the third Congressional district.

He understands that all politics is local and issues like salt, the dealing with taxation, dealing with crime, those are issues that are important and those are issues that Tom has all dealt with, as well as working across the aisle to make sure that we have compromised and able to move forward for better quality of life for all. I think that if there's anyone that is a perfect fit for that district, as the district has recognized over the years, it is Tom Suozzi, he will represent that district well. He's the one that they know. There's no question about who he is, what he stands for, what he has done.

I think that is why both Jay Jacobs who's the county exec of Nassau County and I in Queens County, because part of this, as you've indicated, is in Queens County, why we are in lockstep together in regards to Tom Suozzi being the Democratic nominee.

Brian Lehrer: I see some people are already starting to call in this morning on some of the various topics that I laid out that we might discuss. Let me make sure everybody has the phone number, 212-433-WNYC. Listeners, your early takes on Suozzi versus Republican Mazi Pilip comments or questions or anything else for Gregory Meeks on that.

Also, should Congress approve new aid to Israel with no new conditions, even as President Biden says they're bombing indiscriminately and presses Prime Minister Netanyahu to wage the war differently. The defense secretary Lloyd Austin is in Israel today to continue to do that. We'll play a clip of him coming up, but on those things or the crackdown at the southern border policies that the Republicans want in order to get any new Israel or Ukraine aid, you can comment on those or ask questions. We'll get into the details of those 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Call or text, 212-433-9692.

On the Suozzi-Pilip race, Congressman, on the Democratic side, some progressives are not happy about this choice because Suozzi primary Governor Hochul from the Right, just last year, he called for a 10% income tax cut, state income tax cut, which Progressives consider regressive. He campaigned on rolling back the bail reform law and incarcerating more New Yorkers. Is he the Democrat for 2023 with those positions in 2022?

Congressman Gregory Meeks: I think Tom is the guy that works from the middle out, and he is trying to address all the issues. Tom has stood very strongly with Democrats on all of the key and most important issues with us. Tom is there to represent that district and I think that that's why he is the appropriate candidate. Sometimes if you have individuals who may be way to the left or way to the right. That's not who Tom Suozzi is.

Tom Suozzi is an individual that tries to bring people together, and I'm sure that he will work as he has. When I look at some of my colleagues in Congress, et cetera he's able to persuade them to understand the district that he lives in and how he best has a voice for them. For the third district, it's not a national election, it's a local election. We're trying to make-- He has the voice to speak for them. I think that's why he is the right person to represent that district.

Brian Lehrer: The Republican candidate is Mazi Pilip currently in the Nassau County legislature. Demographically, she is getting a lot of press as an Ethiopian-born Jew Black woman whose family then moved to Israel, and she served in the military there before moving to Long Island. Especially now with events over there, many people in the district who might not know of her might at least be inclined to give her a good look. What would you say makes Suozzi a better candidate or Pilip a worse one to reflect the values and interests of the district?

Congressman Gregory Meeks: Well, I think that when they get into debates, it's going to become clear that she when you ask her where does she stand, for example, in a woman's right to choose, they decide thus far that they are not answering that question. When they're asked in regards to healthcare for all, she's not answering that question. We have found in regards to her that there's several elections, if you look down, that she did not vote in for a number of years. For example I believe from 2012 to 2019, with the exception of 2016, of which we still don't know if she's voted for Donald Trump in 2016, is that the reason why she came in?

That's a district that does not believe in Donald Trump. They did not vote for Donald Trump because of what he stands for. There's a lot of unknown, I think, that individuals have in regards to her. Tom Suozzi? You know who he is. I think the big issue in that district previously was we had someone that was there that no one really knew who he was. Everything he said was a lie. Now you have an individual who's trying to avoid answering questions.

I think that as you get deeper into the debate season, she will be compelled to answer questions, and that can make a big difference because either she doesn't answer them, and then you still have a big question mark on who she is, or she does answer them, and you'll see that she's a part of the extremist agenda of Donald Trump.

Brian Lehrer: We will give each candidate a chance to characterize their own positions on the show, as we will, of course, invite both candidates in that special election. I guess there's also a possibility that there will be third-party candidates since there was no primary for either the Democratic or Republican nominees as I said earlier in a special election, the party leaders, which in this case on the Democratic side, includes my guest, Congressman Gregory Meeks, as he is also the Democratic Party chairman of Queens. They picked the candidates for the two major parties. We'll see if there are others on that ballot as well.

Before we leave that district, and not to confuse people, because if you live in what has been the George Santos district during this term in Congress, that will be your district for the special election. If you're a George Santos, I guess, former George Santos, now that he's out, constituent, you are eligible to vote in that special election on February 13th, but later in the year, there's apparently going to be redistricting yet again for the congressional districts in New York State. Congressmen, as you know, that district got more Republican-friendly after Suozzi left office in the 2022 election, lost Huntington, which is a relatively Democratic Party stronghold.

It picked up Massapequa, which is a very Republican area. That became a more conservative district. Now they're going to do the redistricting again under the recent court order. Do you have any opinions on how that or any other district lines should be drawn? The redistricting from last year is considered one of the reasons that the Republicans picked up so many house seats in the New York suburbs.

Congressman Gregory Meeks: Yes, we just want a fair districting drawn, someone that is familiar with the state of New York. Last year, what took place, first they went to a judge that is way upstate New York. In fact, where the judge came from is closer to Ohio, closer to Cleveland and Pittsburgh and Toronto, than they are to New York City. In a small town, had no knowledge of overall of the population of the state of New York, so that their fair and just lives could be done. Went outside, got a individual from Pennsylvania to come draw the lines who had no annexus to New York whatsoever in violation, I believe, of the constitution.

That's why the judges have ruled that there should be another redistricting where the commission would have another opportunity to draw the lines in a fair way, Democrats and Republicans, as part thereof, should they not agree? Should the state legislature not agree, then the state legislature could in the end, step in and put together some lines. We hope that the commission will put together, not lines that favor there's gerrymandering or anything of that nature, but fair lines. That's all it's asked for.

We believe if we have fair lines drawn, then the people will have their true voice heard. We believe that in the state of New York, they will vote overwhelmingly to elect more Democrats in these various areas. My only push is fair lines based upon the demographics and the population of the state of New York.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a call, I think, on the special election coming up to replace George Santos. Allan is not in the district. He's in Westchester, but Alan, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Allan: Thank you, Brian. A long time listener and admirer. My first time calling in, my question is whether it would be advantageous for the Democrats not only in this district, but in any district to pose the race not as a question of candidate A versus candidate B, but to pose it as if you vote for Republican candidate, you end up with Jim Jordan, Mike Johnson, Lauren Boebert, and Marjorie Taylor Greene running the House of Representatives. I haven't heard that in any congressional district race before, but I'm wondering whether or not that would be an advantageous way to run this and any other race.

Brian Lehrer: I actually think they run congressional races like that all the time on both sides. Whether you're citing Marjorie Taylor Greene, if you're a Democrat, or Nancy Pelosi, if you're a Republican in the previous Congress, as the scary bogeymen and women who would have control, but, congressman, what about Allan's take?

Congressman Gregory Meeks: You're right, Bryan, and he's right also. I think that a vote for Mazi, you're questioning, what you're doing is, are you allowing the codification of road to be way to be eliminated? Are you finding a way to end Planned Parenthood? The whole issue on Ukraine and the blocking of aid for Israel and Ukraine, government shutdown, cutting the environmental inspectors. All of those things that are on the line, will you vote in regards to, and that's why I said, the Trumpian way of doing things or in the way that the local people see most importantly for them? All of those issues will come out, and we do run in that regards because that's what it is.

We have extreme MAGA Republicans that are now in control. For the first part, the first year of the 118th Congress, as some of them have admitted, they have not accomplished and done one thing. Do we want to continue moving in that direction or go into a different direction, as we did in the 117th Congress, where we passed monumental legislation with a small majority of five? That is at stake in this election coming up in the third district.

Brian Lehrer: Speaking of Trumpism, and, Allan, thank you for your call. Feel free to call again, of course. I mentioned earlier, I'm going to say it again, Trump basically quoted from Hitler's Mein Kampf in what is arguably his worst and most fascist, I think it's not just being sensational to use that word here, slur yet against immigrants in general. We often don't play inflammatory Trump clips, but we will today as we get your reaction, congressman, because some things just can't go ignored, especially just after Trump promised to be a dictator on the subject in those other recent interviews that you've probably heard about listeners. Here is this clip.

This is as if it was going to be violent or sexual content, or something like that, that should really come with a listener's warning in advance. In this case, Trump is campaigning in New Hampshire over the weekend for the New Hampshire primary. He literally took language from Hitler's book, Mein Kampf, in which Hitler wrote back then that the immigrants were poisoning Germans' blood. Here's Trump in New Hampshire on Saturday.

Donald Trump: They let, I think the real number is 15, 16 million people into our country when they do that. We got a lot of work to do. They're poisoning the blood of our country. That's what they've done. They poison mental institutions and prisons all over the world, not just in South America, not just the three or four countries that we think about, but all over the world. They're coming into our country from Africa, from Asia, all over the world.

Brian Lehrer: After that, rather than back away from that language or soften it, as politicians often do, after maybe spontaneously saying something outrageous that they decide is not in their interest, NBC News reports that Trump then repeated the use of poisoning in a post on his social media website saying overnight in an all-caps post that, quote, "Illegal immigration is poisoning the blood of our nation. They're coming from prisons, from mental institutions, from all over the world." He said it again on social media.

By way of background, as NBC reminds us the term blood poisoning, those words, blood poisoning, that term was used by Hitler in his manifesto, Mein Kampf, in which he criticized immigration and the mixing of races. Hitler had written, All great cultures of the past perished only because the originally creative race died out from blood poisoning. Hitler wrote that, now Trump is channeling that. Congressman, your reaction?

Congressman Gregory Meeks: Donald J. Trump has told us who he is. Let's believe him. He is clearly a racist in that regard, an authoritarian. He is an individual who means no good for anyone other than himself. If you talk about anything or listen to him at all, he never talks about people. He talks about himself. In the words, as you just indicated, he is familiar words that are utilized by brutal dictators. Former Secretary, the late great Madeleine Albright had a book and it just brought all of the words that was said by Hitler and Stalin and Mussolini, are words that you could all associate with reference to Donald Trump.

You look at his friends today, Orbán, Putin, Kim-Jong-Un, all individuals who fall in the same category as Hitler, Stalin, and Mussolini, as dictators and authoritarians. We know who he is. There should be not a question in American people's minds. We know who Donald Trump is, and that's why we say that democracy is at stake. We all saw with our own eyes what he attempted to do on January the 6th in stopping Joe Biden, the legally elected president of the United States. He tried to do a coup d'etat in the United States, shocking the world. We know who Donald Trump is.

That's why when I think about how the House of Representatives is still controlled by Donald J. Trump, they listen to him and they move as he says. It puts us all in danger, which is why we've got to make sure that he is not elected President of the United States, and we change and turn over the United States House of Representatives. There is a movement away from authoritarianism, and we preserve our democracy. Democracy is truly on the line in the 2024 election cycle.

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute with Congressman Gregory Meeks of Queens. I'll ask him to put on his ranking Democrat on the House Foreign Affairs Committee hat when we come back and talk about the Israel and Ukraine aid bill and what the Republicans who are not Donald Trump are wanting as changes in border policy in order to pass that bill. We'll take more of your call. Stay with us.

Brian Lehrer on WNYC as we continue with Queens, congressman Gregory Meeks, represents Jamaica, Laurelton, St. Albans, the Rockaways, around there since 1998, and has risen to chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee when the Democrats had the majority in Congress.

He is now the ranking Democrat, as they call it, with the Republicans having the chairmanship. Congressman, I want to jump right into the Middle East, and we have a number of callers from your district asking you to support a cease-fire resolution. We'll take a couple of those calls, but you've been saying all along that the Biden policy toward Israel is just right. Is that still your position as the civilian death toll is way past 10,000, not by Hamas's estimate alone, but independent estimates as well?

Congressman Gregory Meeks: Yes. Look, I think that Joe Biden, once history looks back as it's running, the way that he has handled this situation has been the right way to go. We know that Hamas broke the ceasefire on October the 7th. There was a ceasefire with Hamas on October the 6th. It was broken by Hamas on October the 7th. One of the most heinous and unthought of, massacre took place of Israeli citizens. I've seen videos that were taken by Hamas. When you see women raped, when you see babies being burned, when you see heads being cut off, it is completely inhumane. The individuals who were there to say that Israel does not have the right to exist. They have hurt the world.

I think that what Israelis are asking for is for us not to look past Hamas and what they did and how they did it and the passages that they've taken and still have. We know that Hamas cannot continue to exist, just as we have fought to make sure that when we dealt with Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations, that is who Hamas is. As the President has also indicated, we want to preserve as many and all innocent lives of Palestinians. It truly hurts my heart when I see those individuals, again, babies and women and children and adults, innocents that die as a result of the bombing that is taking place to go after Hamas.

Figuring out how we go after and get Hamas is what the President is trying to make sure that happens without losing the lives of innocent Palestinians. That's why the President had called for a humanitarian pause. I think that is appropriate. We saw what took place during the six, seven days we had of a humanitarian pause. The President continues to call because we understand it is important to get humanitarian aid and try to get people in a safe position. We would hope that the dialog and conversation, getting the hostages home and having a humanitarian pause so that we could move forward and try to get into a better place.

Yes, I do agree with the president, the way he's handled this scenario, the conversation that he and his administration are continually having with not only the Israeli government, but also with some of the others in the area, the Gulf countries, as well as putting the two ships into the Mediterranean because we know that there's still a threat from Iran, from Hezbollah, from the Houthis, who are all doing certain nefarious things now. The President has to balance that looking at the entire situation, looking at the threat to Israel and its right to exist. Yes, it's a difficult job, but he's doing a fantastic job, in my opinion.

Brian Lehrer: Lena in Far Rockaway away in the district. You're on WNYC with Congressman Gregory Meeks. Hello.

Lena: Hi, Representative Meeks. I'm calling in as a Jewish constituent of yours to say that it's not Hamas that they're going after, it's all civilians that they're going after. I support a ceasefire. I'm urging you to support a ceasefire for both Gaza and Israel because they're just going after civilians. As a person who has ancestors who survived the Holocaust, I hate that Jews are now doing this in their name and my name when this is not okay. They're going and killing innocent people. The reason there was the pause is because they wanted to give back hostages on both sides. Since then, they've arrested and taken more Palestinian people hostage.

They took those hostages and broke that ceasefire to get their own people back because they are sitting pre-trial in abusive prisons in Israel that mirror our Rikers Island. I just want to know how you are not supporting a cease-fire when you say that the innocent lives, it's hurting your heart on the Palestinian side to see those babies and women and innocents, but those are the people that they're killing in the tens of thousands.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Just to be accurate, I don't think anybody would say that Israel is going after those people, trying to kill civilians in the way that Hamas tried to kill Israeli civilians. It's not in the tens of thousands at this point, but it's getting there. It's approaching 20,000, as reported by many independent agencies. Congressman, even if they're not going after civilians in the way that Hamas went after civilians, they're allowing this.

After they mistakenly killed three Israeli hostages this weekend, after they mistakenly killed women, we assume it's mistakenly, in a church in Gaza, which Pope Francis denounced as terrorism over the weekend, President Biden and Secretary Austin is there today, Defense Secretary Austin, to say, "Do things differently." Why aren't you saying that as loudly?

Congressman Gregory Meeks: What I'm saying first, and I think that what we need to understand is that, unfortunately, we need to push back and have a ceasefire takes two. Hamas does not want a ceasefire. In fact, Hamas is the one that continually breaks the ceasefire. It was Hamas who broke the ceasefire on October the 6th. It was Hamas who also broke the ceasefire after the initial humanitarian pause after the so-called truce. You got to have two sides. No one is saying are talking about Hamas and the fact that they're utilizing the Palestinians as human shields.

They make sure that their tunnels and others are at the expense of Palestinian lives. In fact, when Hamas, and they have said, on a continuous basis, that the loss of lives of Palestinians is just a sacrifice for their cause of destroying Israel.

Brian Lehrer: Let me follow up because I know we're going to run out of time soon. That's the given. That is the condition that Israel finds Gaza in as it prosecutes the war and what Hamas is doing, and they're obviously not about to stop embedding among the civilians. Even within that reality, I want to play a clip of our Defense Secretary, Lloyd Austin, General Austin. If you agree with this, does the foreign affairs committee ranking Democrat, you, have anything to say about approving new military aid with no new conditions? Here's Defense Secretary Austin in his recent speech.

Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin: I learned a thing or two about urban warfare from my time-fighting in Iraq and leading the campaign to defeat ISIS. Like Hamas, ISIS was deeply embedded in urban areas. The international coalition against ISIS worked hard to protect civilians and create humanitarian corridors even during the toughest battles. The lesson is not that you can win in urban warfare by protecting civilians. The lesson is that you can only win in urban warfare by protecting civilians. In this kind of a fight, the center of gravity is the civilian population, and if you drive them into the arms of the enemy, you replace a tactical victory with a strategic defeat.

Brian Lehrer: Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin speaking recently, he's apparently delivering that message to the Israeli leadership in Israel today. My question, Congressman, is what good are those words from our defense secretary or President Biden last week calling the bombing indiscriminate, or anything that you said here this morning, if you then go on and pass a new military aid package without conditions on how they fight the war with respect to civilians.

Congressman Gregory Meeks: What Secretary Austin has just stated is something that I have advocated for because I think that the bombing, particularly from aircraft, et cetera, causes more death as a result of it hitting a tunnel, and destroying, and it destroys the infrastructure underneath does that stand. Buildings fall and people die. Now, urban warfare should be on the ground where you can see who you're shooting at, and you can hold people accountable in that regard.

Press is embedded in many of these troops that are there so that where there is mistakes or items that are taking place where innocents are being killed, as took place with reference to humanitarian aid, as took place with reference to hostages recently, all of that is now being reported, and Israel is asked to stand accountable for that. It also unveils the tunnels and the infrastructure of Hamas, there is fierce fighting that has taken place back and forth.

I think that that is appropriate that we've got to make sure while you're on the ground, as opposed to the bombing through the air, you can see and make sure that you're taking care of the innocents where Hamas would not be. Get them out of harm's way. That is important. I think that's what the President and that's what Secretary Austin is talking to them about as they visit the Middle East currently, to make sure that you're doing everything that you can and have the press there so that they can see and verify what is or is not happening. That's how you have accountability also.

I would suspect that you will see in the next as the President has said, as the Secretary of State is working on, as the administration is working very carefully, and working very hard that we are watching, and we're looking, and we're holding accountable. We're also not letting Hamas off the hook. We want to talk about what they're doing, also, so that you can hear from both sides. I think that is the way that you move forward.

Brian Lehrer: Just one quick follow-up. I know you got to go. How is the United States holding Israel accountable to use the phrase you just used if you're going to pass new military aid, without any conditions?

Congressman Gregory Meeks: Well, I think that if you look at what the aid is for, it's tremendously important, it's for the Iron Dome, they are running out of the defensive equipment that prevented thousands of other rockets that was launched toward Israel, but for the Iron Dome, there would have been many more casualties also on the Israeli side.

When you look at what the dollars that the President have requested, in his supplemental, it is primarily for defensive weapons that makes a difference and save lives, as well as talking to Prime Minister Netanyahu and members of the IDF, and talking and watching what they're doing with the weapons that they have received.

Congress does have a responsibility and my committee, unless the president declares an emergency, as he's done on some of the recently passed weapons that were given to Israel, he declared an emergency scenario.

One of the things I close on this, Brian, what I think is important because there are some things that I have been pressing the administration to declassify because there's some things that are classified, that I wish the American public can also see what's taking place and why certain things are being done when they're being done. I've urged, and I will continue to urge, that certain things be declassified so that there'd be a full understanding now rather than waiting months or years from now and it's declassified.

Brian Lehrer: Well, hopefully, we'll learn soon what those secret things are that you're referring to. Queens, Congressman Gregory Meeks, the ranking Democrat on the foreign affairs committee, thank you so much for joining us today. We always appreciate when you come on.

Congressman Gregory Meeks: Thank you for having me. Appreciate being here.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, much more to come.

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