[music]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Let's talk about manhood and masculinity in modern America. At a conference of Conservatives recently, Republican Senator, Josh Hawley of Missouri, sparked a round of national conversation when he said the goal of the left is the deconstruction of America. He says they target capitalism and traditional education but then he zeros in on what he apparently considers to be their main target.

[audio playback]

Josh Hawley: What I want you to notice, what I want to call out tonight is that the deconstruction of America begins with and depends on the deconstruction of American men. The left wanted to define traditional masculinity as toxic. They want to define the traditional masculine virtues, things like courage, independence, and assertiveness as a danger to society.

[end of audio playback]

Brian Lehrer: My question, whether those virtues like courage, independence, and assertiveness are exclusive to masculinity at all, but Hawley goes on, listening what American men need for those masculine ideals. Things like well-paying jobs and robust domestic manufacturing industries. That doesn't sound so bad. Tax incentives for families so their loved ones are cared for. Maybe that doesn't sound so bad. He even brings up men's mental health saying they're suffering more these days from anxiety, depression, and substance abuse.

[audio playback]

Josh Hawley: Many men in this country are in crisis, and their ranks are swelling. That's not just a crisis for men. That's a crisis for the American Republic.

[end of audio playback]

Brian Lehrer: My next guest, it might surprise you to hear, says Josh Hawley is right. Now not that the left is deconstructing American manhood and dismantling the Republic, but that men in the US do need positive models and better messaging from Liberal voices, from progressive voices, offering new models of masculinity as civic culture evolves and the right becomes so retro great.

Here, with that argument, is Liza Featherstone, Columnist for The New Republic and Jacobin. She also has a fifteen-year-old son, her guest essay, which maybe you saw in The New York Times the other day, is called Josh Hawley and the Republican Obsession With Manliness. Liza, thanks so much for coming on today. Welcome to WNYC this morning.

Liza Featherstone: Thanks for having me, Brian. It's great to be back with you.

Brian Lehrer: Let me dive in with one line from your article, "Mr. Hawley, for all his winking bigotry, is tapping into something real, a widespread, politically potent anxiety about young men that is already helping the right." What's the real part of that?

Liza Featherstone: I'm glad you led with some of the unreal. The real part is that there is a lot of distress out there. I think that Hawley is really right to zero in on men's mental health issues and this is a problem for young men especially. While more young women are diagnosed with anxiety and depression, actually men's suicide rates are higher than women's, and they die of drug overdoses at higher rates. I think that we're really seeing a lot of distress out there.

The other piece that is real is that men are flocking to the right. This is not only a problem in the United States, this is a global issue. We're seeing a lot of the rise of the right powered by dissatisfied men. Whether it's here in this country or Bolsonaro in Brazil. Whatever you want to call it, fascism, the far right, the alt-right, it's really powered, in many ways, by a crisis of men and the Liberal and left sides struggle to reach them, to either address the sources of their distress or to bring them a positive message.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, I see our lines are filling up already with people who want to talk about this. Let me make sure everybody has the phone number, and I'll say people of any gender may call but, is there a national identity crisis for men or maybe we should say for cis men, in particular? What's behind it? 212-433-WNYC, whether you agree with Josh Hawley's analysis or not, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer. Maybe you read Liza Featherstone's column about this in The New York Times.

Is it an issue of political ideology on the left excluding masculinity or Conservatives like Josh Hawley, reinforcing what you would consider toxic masculinity? How would you model male gender expression that's non-toxic but leaves room for what might be some traditional ideas of masculinity? If you, like Liza Featherstone, have a fifteen-year-old son, how are you dealing with this in your own life, especially if you are politically progressive? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 or tweet @ BrianLehrer. Liza, you will not be surprised, I'm sure, to learn that our lines filled up in about four seconds.

Liza Featherstone: I'm not very surprised now.

Brian Lehrer: What are you hearing or what are you suggest, for that matter, from progressives about what progressive models of positive masculinity for today's world might be if Hawley starts with courage, independence, and assertiveness, which I'm sure you would agree, are positive attributes for women too?

Liza Featherstone: Those are certainly positive attributes for all of us, and it's certainly very disingenuous for him to say that those are the traditional masculine virtues. I think that it's a tough one because probably men really need two things that are intention- this is part of how we come to this unfortunate political place that we're in- to thrive men do need to know that it's okay not to be men, and the cultural space to not be traditionally masculine.

Maybe they want to be nerds, or maybe they want to be gay, or maybe they don't even want to be men, maybe they want to be women, and to thrive, humans who happen to be men, need the space to become all of those things if they want. Josh Hawley and his political party are adamantly opposed to that cultural evolution to giving men that space.

By the way, I would say that a lot of mental health issues are caused by pressure to conform around gender norms. On the other hand, I also think on the Liberal side we are not giving men the space to be men in some ways. We often speak about every social problem as if men are the enemy.

It was striking during the last couple democratic primaries especially in 2016, you would hear from Liberals and even more progressive people criticism of Bernie Sanders for appealing to men. His supporters would be derated as Bernie bros as if there was really something wrong, he must be doing something wrong if all these men are [crosstalk].

Brian Lehrer: I think the Bernie bro critique was about a certain kind of male Bernie supporter who was trolling Hillary.

Liza Featherstone: Who was obnoxious.

Brian Lehrer: Exactly. To Hillary Clinton in particular and her female supporters.

Liza Featherstone: Absolutely. But I do think that there is a suspicion of why does he appeal to men. They're like, "There must be something wrong with that." Then we saw the same thing where instead of having a positive message for men, there would be a denigration of, "Look at all these men who are supporting Trump" [unintelligible 00:10:21] rather than our side trying to find a message and find a way to welcome men or bring them in, there would just be like, "Oh, look at all these terrible men and they're voting for Trump. That just shows how bad men are." I don't think that's working for us.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, if you're just joining us, we're talking with Journalist, Liza Featherstone, who writes frequently about the politics of gender. She's got a guest essay in The New York Times from last weekend called Josh Hawley and the Republican Obsession With Manliness about what the Conservative Senator from Missouri got wrong, but also what he got right in his recent speech about masculinity in America today. Kisa in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Kisa. Thanks so much for calling.

Kisa: Hi, good morning, Brian. Thanks for taking my call. I just had a quick commentary that this whole line of discussion is really focusing on white men because Black men and men of color who often express any form of masculinity are vilified and crucified. This whole idea of men expressing their masculinity is really talking about white men. That's all I had to say.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Liza.

Liza Featherstone: I would actually say that that's certainly not what I attended. I think that men of color are very vilified, including by our side. I think that you'll see even in the last election, you saw more Latino men voting for Trump more in 2020 than in 2016. You even saw a slight increase in Black men voting for Trump. I think that there is a sense by men of color as well, that there are vilified or at least not welcomed by the Liberal side.

I think on the other hand, and this is again where Josh Hawley is really disingenuous. Republicans have been vilifying Black men for a long time and other men of color, that's a lot of what the xenophobia about the border coming from Trump, is about the dangers from the men who are going to cross over the border and the criminals. A lot of the inflated panic over crime in our cities is a racist panic over Black men. I would absolutely agree with your caller that this is not only about vilifying a white man.

Brian Lehrer: Certainly, on the double standard, since Josh Hawley uses the words independence and assertiveness as male qualities that he wants American men to double down on before the left takes it all away from them. Really, Josh Hawley? S hould we think you are talking about you want more independence and assertiveness on the part of Black men? I don't think so. Christian in Queens, you're on-- Go ahead. You wanted to say something about that lies in the account?

Liza Featherstone: No, he certainly does not want that. He certainly does not want more assertiveness on the part of any minority group.

Brian Lehrer: Christian in Queens, you're on WNYC. Hello, Christian.

Christian: Hi, thanks for taking my call. I'm actually experiencing a huge amount of anxiety by toxic masculinity. I'm ahead of Sexual Male Carpenter Artist. I'm becoming so agitated by, I guess, what people call toxic masculinity. It's so exhausting. I wish there was a different type of imagery presented in the world as to what a man could be. What I find odd is that some guy driving his really loud car, or just being very aggressive.

My knee-jerk reaction is to be aggressive, but I was drawn to realize that actually being a man would be to not mirror that aggressive behavior to be able to stay calm. For me, I think the crisis of masculinity is fundamentally a crisis of fear. People are scared. They have to express themselves and be strong and aggressive, but underneath all that, I think these big men are just little boys who are scared.

Brian Lehrer: Christian, thank you for that. Liza, fear and maybe shame. Go ahead.

Liza Featherstone: I absolutely agree. You see this in boys a lot, a lot of fear and anxiety about being, first of all, just physical danger from other men. I think that you can't underestimate how much stress men go through fearing violence from other men. I think that our side, the progressive side, we tend to emphasize the violence of men toward women, but men really perpetrate a lot of violence upon each other. Statistically, that's actually much higher and as the caller said in day to day life, that has a tremendous impact on men and puts a lot of men in a position where they feel like they have to put that aggression, put that violence out there in the world, just to defend themselves.

Brian Lehrer: We have to take a break, but when we come back, we'll have a few more minutes with Liza Featherstone on masculinity today. Robert in Brooklyn College Counselor, I see you. We're going to take your call. We're going to hear from a college counselor, Liza, who's calling in and told our screen and all the white males he's working with feel lost. The Democrats don't give them any attention that they feel like the party is for women and people of color.

We'll let him say it for himself and we'll talk about that. I also want to come back to Josh Hawley's list of policy prescriptions from his speech that I mentioned at the beginning, that might line up with some of the things that you as a progressive also think American men need. We'll continue with Liza Featherstone in your calls in a minute. Brian Lehrer on WNYC.

[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC as we continue with journalist Liza Featherstone, who writes frequently about gender and gender politics, as she responds to Josh Hawley, the Republican Senator from Missouri. His recent speech at a conservative convention that said there's a crisis of masculinity in the United States being caused by the left. Here's one more clip of Hawley on that, talking about the left's influence on men's individual behaviors as he sees it.

Josh Hawley: Can we be surprised that after years of being told that they are the problem, that their manhood is the problem, more and more men are withdrawing into the enclave of idleness and pornography and video games.

Brian Lehrer: Robert in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi Robert.

Robert: Hey Brian, thanks for taking my call. I am a college counselor. I work with about 60 kids a year, half male, half female. Over a period of months, I speak with them multiple times a week. Almost across the board, the white, upper-middle-class males that I work with are scared to death. I don't just feel this. They tell me this, that they feel like the Democratic party feels like it's for them more for minorities underserved. They don't feel like anybody's paying attention to them now.

Sometimes, when I'm really honest with I'll say, "Well, you're an upper middle-class white male, you had a great run. You got a lot of what you wanted for a long time and now it's time that the colleges and society and America pay attention to others." I started to sense it four or five years ago, especially when I think a lot of great things happen for minorities and underserved Americans under Obama. I hear them leaning more right, leaning more Republican, which is scary and they don't know what to do.

Brian Lehrer: Well, let me get Liza on this. Robert stay there, because I want you two to talk to each other for a second. Liza I'm projecting here that you don't love the message that Robert is giving to these middle-class white men if he's saying, "You've had your run for so long, now it's time for other people to have their turn", which may be true, but it doesn't affirm those college students who are white men as individuals.

Liza Featherstone: Well, I completely understand why he would say that. Historically, it's not an incorrect description of what's happening. I think he was probably, like an adult should, trying to give them a realistic sense of things, and to help them understand why it was happening. I don't think it's Roberts' fault that the Democrat side, that the progressive side hasn't been offering a positive message for the young men that he works with. I think that he's right about that.

Brian Lehrer: Robert, you want to have one more go on this?

Robert: Well this week and next week, when the colleges announced their results, I will get text messages and emails and phone calls from white males. I'm predicting that a number of them are going to say to me, "I didn't get into early at Duke, but underserved young woman girl in my class, who didn't have the grades or test scores I did, did get in, explain that", and I have to try to explain that to them. With their parents saying, "You're great, you'll be fine, you'll get what you want", I feel like I should be a voice of reason to them, I should let them know that it's a big country with lots of different people who all deserve the same opportunity.

They did have it their way for a long time, and the balance is shifting, and you can either be angry or upset about it, or you can become a Republican if you feel you have to, but the better thing to do is work harder and recognize that you're going to have to fight for everything you want when in the past maybe you didn't have to fight so hard.

Brian Lehrer: If you didn't get into Duke, maybe you got into UNC and you will be fine.

Liza Featherstone: I think you will be fine is a very good message especially if they're upper middle-class boys who have been studying hard and doing [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: I want to ask you two last things as we run out of time. If the Josh Hawley definition of traditional male virtues, as he called them, are things he named, like Courage, independence, and assertiveness, and the left is encountering that effectively, and some young white men are starting to lean right who might have otherwise not as Robert describes, what's the shorthand progressive version? If it's not courage, independence, and assertiveness, and Gosh darn it, we're men, and we have courage, and we're assertive. Is it something? Can you do it-- In fact, progressives are always worse than conservatives at doing it in five words. Can you do it in five words?

Liza Featherstone: I'm not sure you can do it in five words, but I will say that I think that men right now and boys right now do need a sense of purpose and a message that they belong in society, and that's why Hawley's message worries me because I think he is offering a more welcoming message. He's saying, "Your country needs you, your society needs you", and if you look at-- like my son likes to read books about World War II and it occurred to me the other day, "That's World War II, was the last time the liberal world had a problem to which men were the solution".

I don't think that militarism is a great option for these young men, but I think a larger sense of national purpose, the kind that Josh Hawley talks vaguely about, I think that could be appropriated by the left.

Brian Lehrer: Could there ironically be some policy common ground here? Because I mentioned in the intro, some of the things that Hawley laid out that are needed in his view are well-paying jobs in robust domestic manufacturing industries. Well--

Liza Featherstone: I would agree with him [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: - both the men and women and nonbinary people too, owning those, but tax incentives for families, so their loved ones are cared for, check as a progressive agenda item, and mental health, saying men are increasingly suffering from anxiety, depression and substance abuse, and certainly mental health care is a progressive priority. Is there common ground here to end on?

Liza Featherstone: Well, I think there's common ground in the things that we are concerned about, the things that I and Robert and Josh Hawley are concerned about, but I don't think there's common-- and yes, in big ways, the policy that you mentioned, but realistically, Josh Hawley and the Republicans are not going to support solving any of these problems because they don't support spending public money on anything. They resisted the large infrastructure project that the bipartisan infrastructure project that just passed. Hawley didn't vote for that, he called that woke, obviously that's--

Brian Lehrer: Lot of construction jobs for men.

Liza Featherstone: Exactly, lot of construction jobs for men, a lot of potential for national purpose and a sense of belonging for men, and Josh Hawley called it woke. He's really not very interested in my mind in actually solving this problem, I think he's very interested in exploiting it.

Brian Lehrer: Liza Featherstone's essay in the New York Times, is called Josh Hawley and the Republican Obsession with Manliness. Thank you so much.

Liza Featherstone: Thank you, Brian.

Copyright © 2021 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.