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Brian Lehnrer: It's the Brian Lehrer show on WNYC. Good morning, again, everyone. One of the things we're doing this election season on the show is covering the competitive congressional races in our area. The only one in New York City that looks like it could go either way is the Staten Island South Brooklyn district currently represented by freshman Democrat, Max Rose.

Yesterday, we heard from his Republican challenger Assemblywoman to call Nicole Malliotakis. In just a minute, congressmen Rose will join us. This is a swing district. The district lines have changed a few times, but the same district more or less has gone back and forth between the parties a few times in the last decade, Democrat Michael McMahon, remember him? Republicans, Michael Graham, and Dan Donovan.

Now, Democrat Max Rose. In presidential politics, Trump won the district with 53% of the vote in 2016, but then in 2018 in the congressional race, the Democrat Rose defeated the incumbent Republican. Now Rose is seeking to defend, and Assemblywoman Malliotakis is seeking to unseat him. Demographically, the district as I said, voted 53% for Trump in 2016.

That makes it unique in the city. The next highest congressional district voted only 36% for Trump. As of the 2010 census stats that I've read, the district is 73% white, 16% Latinx, 13% Asian American, and 8% Black. As we did with the assembly member yesterday we'll talk about campaign issues and also touch on some other issues in the news just because they're pertinent to his current work and office.

Congressman Rose sits on the House Homeland Security Committee. He is in the National Guard and served in the army in Afghanistan. He also worked for the late Brooklyn DA Ken Thompson, and was Chief of Staff in a healthcare company. Congressman, thanks for coming on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Max Rose: Brian, thanks for having me back on.

Brian: Let me start with a one minute clip of Assemblywoman Malliotakis from yesterday. This was the final minute of our interview in which I invited her to state one issue where she, and you defer and frame any question that she would like me to ask you today and here's what she said.

Nicole Malliotakis: Well, first of all, what I would say is that the biggest difference is how we approach public safety. Max Rose supports de Blasio's plan to close Rikers, build jails in communities, I don't. I believe that you should be retrofitting those buildings, making them safer and more habitable for individuals that are working there and also being kept there.

Max Rose supported eliminating cash bail, I didn't. In fact, I fought and led the fight over the last seven months to fix what was the broken botched law and restore crime still list in which a judge can use discretion and to stop repeat offenders from being released. Max Rose voted to release federal convicts, supports amnesty for gang members. I would vote against those pieces of legislation.

Lastly, Max Rose marched with those who were chanting and holding signs, demanding to defund the police, which builds the Blasio ended up doing. I oppose that. We have six demonstrations in support of our police. He has not attended one of them. The question really should be why and how could he find the time to march with those defunding the police, but couldn't find the time to show up and support our men and women in blue at least one of the six rallies that took place in his district.

Brian: All right. That was Republican Assemblywoman Nicole Malliotakis here yesterday, as she challenges democratic Congressman Max Rose, who is here now. Congressmen, there are a number of issues in there, obviously that we can get to, but will you start by answering her question about why you've marched as she puts it with people chanting, defund the police, but none of the six pro-police rallies that took place in your district.

Max: Sure. Well, Brian, as I said again, thank you for having me on. I think, first of all, it's important for your listeners to understand who Nicole Malliotakis is. She doesn't actually have any inner core beliefs, rather she does and says whatever she thinks or who she is told a poll will inform her that will allow her to win an election. It's for that very reason that when she ran for mayor in 2017, she was abjectly opposed to Donald Trump.

She supported the Sanctuary Cities, she opposed the border wall to move forward, fast forward just a couple of years later, and she has completely changed her beliefs on each of those issues. Now she thinks that these are the angles, these are the lies that will allow her to win an election. I'm the only one in this election that has served in uniform.

I bled for this country, swore oath to protect and defend the Constitution, put my life on the line for this nation. I understand the stress and the pain that goes into serving in a public safety role and under no circumstances would I ever do something against the public safety interest of my constituents, or anyone throughout the country.

For that reason, that I've opposed defunding the police from day one, rather, have fought successfully to increase spending on counterterrorism spending, protecting religious institutions by hundreds of millions of dollars, and will continue to put forth pieces of legislation that do just that. Now, Nicole loves to talk about marches. Well, let's talk about the march that she and by the way the congressional leadership fund the Republican super pack is attacking me for attending.

A march organized by young people on Staten Island, most of them young people of color, in coordination with the police that resulted in zero arrests that resulted in zero summonses and was centered not around a movement to defund the police but was centered around improving police-community relations and addressing systemic racial injustice throughout the country.

In fact, the police have bragged, rightfully so may I add, on their partnerships with the community and on the fact that there has been zero rioting, zero looting on Staten Island.

Brian: Let me jump in and follow up because those were still or the one you're describing was still a criminal justice reform march. She asked why did you not join any of what she described the six pro-police rallies that took place in the district?

Max: I will happily finish and answer that question. I think it is important here that we know exactly what type of leadership we want. Is it leadership that divides? Is it leadership that supports racist advertisements that position potentially what could be her future constituents as young Black men and women of color who are angry criminals?

Or is it someone who says yes, of course, we have to support the police, of course, we should not defund to the police but we have got to bridge this massive community divide that we see across the country? Build trust between the community and the police. Now, when it comes to any and all marches, I actually have participated in marches in coordination with the police in support of the police.

Just a march last month, seven days of marches, in fact, in opposition to gun violence, led by Chief Corey and other elected officials on Staten Island to include Councilwoman Debi Rose, in places where he had seen gun violence, where we stood up and we openly thanked the police, expressed our support for the police, for the incredible work that we are doing with them. We said no to violence, we said yes to safety.

We said that we have got to have more collaboration and coordination across the community to fight the number one enemy that we have, which are violent criminals. Now, guess what because it was Black constituents, this doesn't count for the assembly member? That's just incredibly sad. I would never ever, ever to bring this full circle I don't think that we should be qualifying individual marches like things that were set by individuals at those marches.

The Assemblymember led a march in South Brooklyn. A march with some constituents of whom I deeply respect some of whom I know but there were also racial epithets yelled at that march, there was small acts of violence perpetrated at that march. I would never try to say that the Assemblymember supports those, I don't think she would, either. Let's move beyond this and let's actually have a conversation about the issues, a conversation about how we heal this country, and how we help America fulfill its promise and be once again, greatest country in the history of the world.

Brian: Related, and on one of the underlying issues there I want to ask your opinion about whether there is systemic racism in America and in police departments, including the NYPD and I'm going to set this up with several clips. At the Republican convention Vice President Pence suggested that systemic racism nationally and implicit bias and policing don't really exist. Listen.

Mike Pence: Joe Biden says that America is systemically racist and that law enforcement in America has, and I quote, "An implicit bias against minorities."

Brian: Vice President Pence from his Convention speech. President Trump seemed to double down on that yesterday in Kenosha when he wouldn't say to a reporter who asked him if systemic racism is a problem in this country. Here's that question and the President's answer.

Reporter: Do you believe systemic racism is a problem in this country?

Donald Trump: Well, you just keep getting back to the opposite subject. We should talk about the violence that we've seen in Portland and here and other places.

Brian: President Trump yesterday declining to state that systemic racism exists in this country. Here finally, is Assemblywoman, Malliotakis yesterday on this show, very short clip, when I followed up on that Pence clip by asking if she thinks there is implicit bias in the NYPD. Is that a yes or a no on implicit bias in the NYPD?

Nicole: I don't believe that there's bias in the NYPD.

Brian: Congressmen on that last point first, do you agree or disagree that there is no systemic bias in the NYPD.

Max: Look, no matter what Brian, statistic you look at, no matter what. Look at life expectancy, look at health outcomes, look at income, look at wealth, look at housing. There are such significant racial disparities in this country with an obvious legacy of racial injustice attached to it that I think it's impossible to say that there is not to honestly say that there is not systemic racism in America.

Now, with that being said, that reality of racial injustice that we face today, that I think is extraordinarily real, is tied to bias and injustices, particularly bias across public institutions and across individuals to include, may I add journalism. What do we have to do in response to that? Well, I do not believe, and you say, you actually see this on the left and on the right.

I do not believe that the answer to that is denigrating public institutions as a whole, putting the public servants that have dedicated their lives to those institutions, to placing them as caricatures. Rather, I think that what we have to do, and I say this, not just as a member of Congress, but as a soldier, a soldier whose life was saved in Afghanistan due to a public institution, the military doing the right thing, receiving the funding that it needed, having the right equipment and my life was saved when my vehicle hit an IED.

I sincerely believe that we should not under any circumstances, paint with a broad brush our public institutions to include the NYPD paint with a broad brush of public servants, to include our cops as inherently racist, as individuals who aren't for the most part each and every day, hugging their wives, hugging their husbands, hugging their children goodbye in the morning or at night, not knowing if they're coming home.

I've met so many of these officers and I remember that feeling of putting your life on the line, I remember that feeling of watching my soldiers put their lives on the line. We've got to be there for them and that is a false choice to say that supporting our police, supporting our public service, supporting our public institutions means that we are not there for the community.

There's an abjectly false choice. One that I reject and one that I think is poison for our public discourse. It's clear that this administration wants to avoid that discussion. It's clear that our leaders want to avoid that discussion, but I also do take significant umbrage with the course and the direction that the left is taking this, the abolition movement, the defunding movement, which is inherently saying that our police could never accomplish it, they we're giving up on them.

That rather what we have to do is reduce their scope, reduce their size, reduce their pay. In some ways, take away their union rights. You take away their union rights, the next thing you're doing is you're going to take away the rights of teachers to unionize, the rights of nurses to unionize, the rights of firefighters to unionize. I represent a district with the highest rate of unionization in America. I'm unwilling to give up on that.

Brian: Is that a yes or a no on implicit bias in the NYPD Malliotakis said no. Mission accomplished in rooting that out.

Max: No. Again, I'm absolutely unwilling during the course of this conversation or in the course of any conversation to single out the NYPD as an institution that is fundamentally worse than any other public institution that we are dealing with right now.

Brian: She said it's fundamentally better, and other police departments around the country should learn from the NYPD. Do you agree with that?

Max: Fundamentally so. Again, and by the way, that's not an opinion. There's statistics tied to that. If you look at instances of brutality, if you look at how often they are using firearms, if you're looking at the commitment in neighborhood policing, if you're looking at the investments in partnerships with other social service providers, just look at the wonderful work that people like Chief Corey on Staten Island is doing building partnerships each and every day.

Some of those partnerships by the way being built with the very people who Nicole Malliotakis is criticizing in her ads, the Republican Party is criticizing in their ads. Look at the amazing work that Chief Marjorie is doing. I was working with his officers when Connett couldn't get the power back on to get generators to people's homes whose lives were on the line.

In so many ways, what we have been trying to do in Congress with things like the Justice and Policing Act is to bring the standards and the quality of policing around the country up to the level and the standards of the NYPD. It is for that reason that I believe that our officers in the NYPD should be paid more as a recognition of what they're doing.

Brian: Just to close this loop. Ultimately, you agree with her on this no implicit bias in the NYPD?

Max: Again, you are simplifying and caricaturing this conversation. There is no public institution in America that is perfect. There is no public institution in America that does not deal with the continuing realities of bias. By the way, as I said, you have to deal with that, I have to deal with it, journalists have to deal with that, elected officials have to deal with that.

What I take umbrage with, what I am trying to push back upon is this notion that we are singling out the NYPD as an entity that is inherently evil or an entity that should be abolished or defunded as a means of addressing the current realities and legacies of racial injustice, of which I am more than ready and willing to have a conversation about how we address.

Brian: You mentioned the union. The Assemblywoman is proud of getting the endorsement of the Police Benevolent Association. She brought it up right at the beginning yesterday. PBA is controversial because of the tone and language of its President Pat Lynch, among other things. Would you want the PBA's endorsement this year if they offered it to you?

Max: Look, under no circumstances are they offering it. I am a huge, huge fan of our police officers. Certainly, if the PBA wanted to publicly endorsement me that's a conversation I'd be more than willing to have with them.

Brian: Are you a fan of their leadership?

Max: Pat Lynch? Look, this isn't high school, my friend. I'm not going to get into publicly talking about whether or not I like Pat Lynch, this and that. What I am going to say though, is that look, I have visited the roll calls for the police precincts in my district. Each and every time I see officers lined up, many of whom represent the beautiful cultural mosaic that is New York City, many of whom, as I've said, are not sure if they're going home that night and are willing to give their lives to this city and this country, I respect them, I honor them.

All I am seeking to do in my career in public service is to try to be there for them just as I'm trying to be there for the community. We can talk politics all you want, we can talk endorsements all you want. I got nothing, nothing to say against them or their union members and we'll see how this happens. We'll see how the cookie crumbles my friend.

Brian: The Assemblywoman also brought up bail reform. In the original clip that we played she said she is against bail reform, you're for it and she was critical of you for that. How would you describe your position?

Max: By the way, it is fascinating that as the Assemblywoman seeks to run for a Federal position all she can talk about are state and local issues, but I won't dodge the question. Look, in a world where young men and women are in jail for hundreds of days, tens of days before being able to get to a trial, many of whom are poor, many of whom come from underserved communities of course, I think that and I expressed that that was a policy and a program that was deserving of reform.

We all in fact agreed on that, but I was one of the first elected officials in New York City to call out the incredibly botched bail reform that actually went through the state. A botched bail reform that took away judicial discretion, a botched bail reform that had ridiculous discovery laws that placed ridiculous constraints on the abilities of our prosecutors to do their jobs and a botched bail reform by the way, that made us less safe, not more safe and did not do much in the pursuit of criminal justice reform.

Brian: You oppose to bail reform as it came out of Albany.

Max: Oh, 100%. I was very open and very honest about that and very forthright about that, not because I am not a believer in criminal justice reform, but because they got it wrong. Now, by the way, this is a bail reform of which the Assemblywoman is criticizing left and right, trying to put words in my mouth that do not exist that happened under her watch. She's legitimately trying to run against a policy that she could not prevent in the first place. What is that to say about what her legislative career will look like?

Brian: Because the assembly has a Republican minority, so they couldn't prevent it from passing. We have about two minutes left, I want to keep this to equal time that she had yesterday. One more clip of the Assemblywoman from yesterday. I'm going to ask you this because your district voted for Trump in 2016, but you as a Democrat in 2018 and I asked the Assemblywoman since New York City Republicans aren't always Trump Republicans are you in 2020? And here was her response.

Nicole: I support the President. I think that the President is doing a good job and he has done a good job in terms of our economy. I was proud to work with him and garnering support from New York entities and my colleagues in the State legislature for the US-Mexico-Canada agreement, which will bring in billions and create thousands of jobs. I like what he's doing for our veterans, I like what he is doing to secure our borders. I like that he's putting America first and pushing back against those who are trying to move us more towards socialism.

Brian: Your Republican opponent supports the President. You voted to impeach him. Is there a Venn diagram where a Trump supporter is also a Max Rose supporter because you overlap on enough things or is this totally either or?

Max: Look, you at the beginning of this conversation first of all, clarified my congressional district as a swing district or excuse me, as up for grabs, it's not up for grabs. I'm going to win this race but second of all, you clarified in that it's Trump--

Brian: I just said, it's historically over the last decade, it's this swing district, but go ahead.

Max: You also clarified it as a Trump district because Donald Trump won the district by more than the state of Texas.

Brian: I just said thought he won in 2016, but go ahead.

Max: Give me a sec, my friend. This is not a Donald Trump district is not a district filled with Donald Trump's supporters. Just that as a consequence of 2018, it is not a Max Rose district filled with homogeneous Max Rose supporters. What this is rather, it's a patriotic district that votes for the person, not the party. It is a district filled with people who, by the way, we have just started calling essential workers, but they were always essential.

The lights of the city turn on each and every day. The city runs, the state runs, the country runs because of them. They're not owned by any elected official, they're not owned by any party. Of course there's all the room in the world for people to support Donald Trump, as well as Max Rose. I have held this President accountable when I thought that it was the right thing to do.

I'm not a fully-owned subsidiary of this President. I'm not a fully-owned subsidiary of anybody, but on the same hand, when this President did the right thing, whether it was his executive order on anti-Semitism when I was one of only a few Democrats to stand with him in the White House and applaud his efforts or when he killed the Iranian terrorist Qasem Soleimani, I was one of just a few Democrats to vote in support for all intents and purposes of his actions.

Qasem Soleimani deserved to be killed, the terrorist that he is with the blood of American soldiers on his hands and we are safer as a consequence of the President's actions. In each of those instances, I was just one of a small, small minority of members of my party, willing to do the right thing, not maintain blind allegiance to my party.

Nicole is going to say all types of things during this race, the congressional leadership fund, which has put millions of dollars against me already is going to say and do all types of things as well, including wage a war on kids in my district of which Nicole is unwilling to criticize. Now to the congressional leadership fund. I say, come at me, don't come at anyone else. I signed up for this. They didn't.

To Nicole, I say, what are your ideas? For once, come out and say, what is it that you'd like to do to try to improve people's lives, to improve housing, to lower taxes, to improve safety and to improve America's position in the world so we can be safer and more prosperous and more just. We've been talking for 20 minutes right now. I haven't heard one idea.

Brian: Democratic Congressman Max Rose of Staten Island and South Brooklyn running for re-election. Yesterday, we heard his Republican challenger Assemblywoman, Nicole Malliotakis. Congressman, thanks a lot.

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