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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Beginning this afternoon, New Yorkers in our area, downstate area, can attend public meetings about the once-in-a-decade process of drawing district lines for Congress and the New York State Legislature. They do this every 10 years, the year after the census, and the ramifications can be huge. For example, because of the 2020 census count, New York State will lose one congressional seat this year. Did you know that? Will that seat come from a Democratic or a Republican district. With control of Congress seriously in play next year, as we were talking about in our previous segment, that kind of redistricting decision in states around the country could be decisive.

In New York, we have a new system that's supposed to make district line drawing less partisan, though how much will accomplish that remains in question. The New York Times reported that with Republicans preparing to use their control of states like Texas, Florida, and Georgia to pile up a dozen or more new red seats, Democrats seem intent on using New York's laws to their advantage here.

The state's independent redistricting commission with five Democrats and five Republicans has, so far, failed to agree on a set of maps, and so a series of public hearings begins in the area today, borough by borough and county by county this afternoon at three o'clock at the Pace University Law School in White Plains, that's the Westchester one, tomorrow in the Bronx, Wednesday in Manhattan, next week in Brooklyn, Queens, and Staten Island on different days, the week after that in Nassau and Suffolk counties. We'll give you some specific times and places later and post them on our webpage.

We are pleased to have with us now two members of the New York State Independent Redistricting Commission, which will conduct these hearings. They've already done some upstate. We have the chair of the commission, David Imamura. In his day job, he's an attorney at Debevoise & Plimpton specializing in regulatory investigations and civil litigation. He's co-author of the book Goldfeder's Modern Election Law. Co-chair of the Westchester Asian-American Advisory Board, and a member of the Westchester County Human Rights Commission.

Also with us, Dr. Ivelisse Cuevas-Molina of Fordham University, Political Science professor teaching in the Elections and Campaign Management Graduate program, as well as undergraduate courses on American politics and government political participation, Latino, Latina, LatinX politics, and racial and ethnic politics in the United States. Mr. Imamura, Dr. Cuevas-Molina, thanks for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

David Imamura: Good morning, Brian. How are you? Thanks so much for having us.

Dr. Ivelisse Cuevas-Molina: Hi, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Let me get right to what I think might be the most important to our listeners, the thing that might be the most important to them, if they're not in the weeds about map-making and redistricting politics. New York State has to lose one congressional seat. Do both sets of maps, these competing Democratic and Republican maps, take that seat from an upstate Republican district? or is it seriously in play whether the new map might create a competitive purple district? David Imamura, you want to take that first?

David Imamura: Yes, Brian. As your viewers know, New York lost a single congressional district coming out of the census and we only lost it by 89 people. If there's anyone out there, whoever questions the ability of one person to make a difference, you should tell them that the number of people who fit in a subway car was the difference between New York maintaining the size of its current congressional delegation and losing a seat.

Both sides' maps have the congressional district that's being redistributed upstate. The Democratic clan redistributes Tom Reed's congressional district along the southern tier. The Republicans' plan redistributes Antonio Delgado's district south of Albany. Both plans are moving different districts.

Brian Lehrer: Delgado is a Democrat for people who don't know in a swing district. The outcomes of these two redistricting maps would be very different. The one would definitely remove a Republican from the New York delegation. The other one would make that a competitive process in the election next year. Since this is all based on the census, Dr. Cuevas-Molina, I believe the population became even more concentrated downstate where Democrats tend to win and less so upstate. Do you have the data on that and how it guides this process?

Dr. Ivelisse Cuevas-Molina: Well, we had a huge population growth downstate, particularly in the boroughs of Queens and Kings counties. You're going to see that reflected in the maps. You're going to see an increase in the number of districts downstate versus upstate. I would say that because district drawing is based on population, not geography, you're going to see that reflected in the draft maps that we have already published on September 15th and the new maps that we come together on in January.

Brian Lehrer: How do you see your jobs as members of the Independent Redistricting Commission? Is it to fight for your party's interests on a 50-50 commission? I believe you're both Democratic appointees. Or is it to work together to try to take jockeying for partisan advantage out of the equation? Dr. Cuevas-Molina, I'll stay with you on this first.

Dr. Ivelisse Cuevas-Molina: Well, I'd like to clarify that I am a nonpartisan member of the commission and I was appointed by the whole of the partisan appointees to the commission, just to clarify that. I see my-

Brian Lehrer: In other words, the first round of appointing puts an equal number of Democrats and Republicans on the commission, and they pick the final few members, and you're one of those who they agreed on?

Dr. Ivelisse Cuevas-Molina: Yes, that's right. I would like to say that I see my job as a commissioner as the role of safeguarding Democratic representation for the people of New York. I want the people of New York to have districts that reflect the needs of the people. I want them to reflect communities of interest and to protect voting rights, and I see my role as making sure that that happens.

Brian Lehrer: David Imamura, for you as chair of the commission and appointed by the Democratic leader of the State Senate, Andrea Stewart-Cousins, as I cited from the New York Times, Republican-controlled states like Texas, Florida, and Georgia don't seem to have these ethical qualms about trying to draw a nonpartisan district. They just maximize Republican advantage. That's why the percentage of Republican seats tends to be higher than the percentage of the total national vote for Republican house candidates. Would nonpartisan redistricting in New York be like unilateral disarmament by the Democratic party?

David Imamura: I wouldn't view it as unilateral disarmament, Brian. Our focus, like Professor Cuevas-Molina said, is the focus on drawing districts that represent the people of New York, and that is what we are doing, is we are going out to the public in an unprecedented process where we're getting average New Yorkers to weigh in on their district lines. This has never happened before in New York State history. We're getting New Yorkers to come forward and tell us about their communities and tell us about their districts, and that's going to reflect that in the maps as well. I'm a 100% confident that we're engaged in a fair process where all New Yorkers are able to engage.

Brian Lehrer: Dr. Cuevas-Molina, do you want to weigh in on that same question? Because I think ultimately for the state legislators who will make these ultimate decisions, and of course the state legislature is controlled with super majority Democratic party majorities in both the Assembly and the Senate. Should Texas, Florida, and Georgia, and other Republican states be taken into account when they make their decisions? If they're not having these nuanced ethical conversations like we're having now about partisan versus some version of nonpartisan redistricting, why should New York give up that much partisan advantage?

Dr. Ivelisse Cuevas-Molina: Well, I would say that politics is inherent to the process and that partisan politics is part of the job of the members of the state legislature. We, the commissioners, have to focus on our job, which is to draw fair lines, lines that represent the people of New York, especially racial and ethnic minorities so that we can protect their voting rights. I'm focused on that. I'm focused on the work that we are doing as a commission to demonstrate to the people of New York that we have the ability to draw fair lines, even though our job is advisory to the legislature.

Brian Lehrer: You want to expand on part of what you just said? Because under federal law, you also do have to take fair representation of political minorities, which usually means racial or ethnic minorities, into account so that they are concentrated enough in some districts to have some real voting power. That's a civil rights law. What are the mandates or guidelines that you follow on that?

Dr. Ivelisse Cuevas-Molina: We have had some statistical analysis done for the commission that is guiding our decision-making on creating districts that are made to give representation to historically underrepresented groups. Of course, in the city of New York is where you're going to find most of those VRA districts where we have to comply with Section II of the law.

We are using the population data that is given to us by the census to guide our decision-making. Of course, the Constitution also requires that we follow some guidelines, like trying to maintain the course of existing districts. That is another thing that we take into account, but as a commission, we have decided not to use any political data in our decision-making. What we are only using is census data and data regarding the race and ethnicity of the population in the state of New York.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take a couple of questions, if people want to call in a question or an opinion, about redistricting in New York State ahead of next year's congressional elections or, for that matter, the State Legislature elections too. 212-433-WNYC-433-9692. Remember the context because of the 2020 census count, New York has to lose one seat in the House of Representatives. How that happens could influence who controls Congress after the midterm elections, and how that happens is in play in New York State right now, as we've just been hearing.

Will it be a clearly Republican seat that gets eliminated upstate? or will it be Congressman Delgado's purple district? He's a Democrat, but that's a competitive district, and they have to fight the Democrats and Republicans for that ground next year. Who has a question or wants to say your piece, if you can't attend these redistricting commission hearings that are coming up in-person? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

David, tell our listeners about these public meetings on this New York State redistricting process. They begin today in Westchester, three o'clock at the Pace University Law School. Then there's one tomorrow in the Bronx, Wednesday in Manhattan. What will happen at these meetings? How can members of the public participate?

David David Imamura: Like I said, this is the first time the average New Yorkers have the ability to weigh in on their district lines. People can sign up, come speak. They get three minutes to speak unto themselves, and then there are two minutes for commissioners to ask questions. At our hearings upstate, we've had, I think, a real success in terms of engaging with individual speakers and asking them about their communities and asking how the district should best reflect that.

At the end of the day, politics is representation, but representation is determined by the district lines. What we're doing in this room will have repercussions for a decade to come. We really encourage members of the public to participate. You can participate either in-person or via Zoom. We're really happy that we've been able to create a hybrid setup where people can participate virtually. We really encourage people to draw their own district maps and submit them to the commission.

One thing that Professor Cuevas-Molina was saying was how much the math and the census results drive the actual district drawing process. Especially in the city, people will find if you draw not just your own district, but districts around you, you'll see how different parts, different boroughs and different populations in different parts of the city are driving districts in certain directions.

We really encourage people to draw their own maps and submit them to the commission because it's incredibly helpful to us and it's incredibly helpful going forward to just have exactly what people are talking about, especially in the city, because when people orally describe neighborhoods, sometimes that's not enough and that's certainly not as effective as having your own map that you can present to us.

Brian Lehrer: This first public meeting is in White Plains today, and here's Greg in White Plains calling in. Greg, you're on WNYC. Hello. Greg, do we have you?

Greg: Yes, you do. Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: Sorry about that. That was our fault. Now we have you. Go ahead.

Greg: What if this process was put into mathematical terms, "No exterior boundary can be more than twice the distance of the shortest boundary from its center," so these crazy maps that are drawn to unrepresent the population simply aren't allowed legally?

Brian Lehrer: Which is where the word 'gerrymandering' comes from because there was a district, once upon a time, drawn like a salamander, which doesn't make intuitive sense to a lot of people like Greg in White Plains when it's drawn to include certain people and exclude certain other people, to keep certain people in or out of power. Professor Cuevas-Molina, is that the right way to look at it? Just take a little grid of a bunch of little squares and superimpose it over the map, and that's non-partisan redistricting?

Dr. Ivelisse Cuevas-Molina: The thing is that there are a lot more idiosyncrasies to the map-drawing process than just using a mathematical model in order to create districts. You can find examples of these computer-created congressional districts all over the internet, but the truth is that those computer-generated maps do not provide representation for communities of interest. Sometimes, communities of interest are arranged in ways that look funky, but those communities do deserve to be together because they have shared interests.

I think that the human element of having commissioners from all over the state who know their regions, who know their communities, and having this process of public hearing provides us with the human element that is necessary to provide real representation for the people of New York. I think that computers are incapable of taking into account the idiosyncrasies of communities.

Brian Lehrer: Similar question, I think, from Michael in Lynbrook. You're on WNYC. Hi, Michael.

Michael: How are you? I was just calling to see why is it not just broken up by the town so each representative represents a certain number, whether it's one town or two towns? I'm on Long Island. Why is it not you represent all of Wantagh and Seaford, and these town aren't broken up into multiple parts, you just represent the entire town, whatever that makeup looks like?

Brian Lehrer: David Imamura, you want to take that?

David Imamura: Yes, that's a great question, Michael. As a Westchester resident, I understand where you're coming from. I think that at the end of the day, like Professor Cuevas-Molina said, communities of interest don't necessarily adhere to town boundaries, especially when it comes to the Voting Rights Act. We might be legally obligated to draw certain districts that shift, that don't necessarily adhere to town boundaries.

That being said, town boundaries, municipal boundaries are something that we heavily take into account when we draw districts, but then what happens in the city, Michael? The city definitely doesn't have town boundaries that you can draw, and what a neighborhood is differs from person to person.

That's the challenge that we face when we draw lines, is weighing town boundaries versus communities of interest, weighing municipal lines and school district lines versus what people say their local employer or where their local houses of worship are. All of these things are what we have to take into account when we draw lines. That's why it's so important that people come to these hearings and talk about their community.

Brian Lehrer: On the other hand, we have Terrence in Queens. Terrence, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Terrence: How are you guys doing?

Brian Lehrer: Good.

Terrence: My point is, go ahead and do your work and figure out which districts should [unintelligible 00:19:35] fairly, but I look at it simply like basically, this was caused by Republicans taking a seat, intimidating New Yorkers not to go out and do the census. We should just deliberately take a seat from a Republican area and give it to [unintelligible 00:19:56] and that would be the punishment for them not playing fair.

Brian Lehrer: The punishment that fits the crime, trying to undermine the census as Trump was trying to do in various ways, and if it's a close call in New York State, that becomes justice. Terrence, thank you. Similarly, I think, Jim in Manhattan. Jim, you're on WNYC. Hello?

Jim: Oh, hi. I didn't think I'd get through. It really galls me to hear this idea of Democrats being fair and Republicans just want to win. Let's get off the thing here.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. We will leave that as a statement since there was no question. As we wrap up with two members of New York State's Independent Redistricting Commission, I'll give you listeners, the locations of the three public hearings. They are doing one in each county, which in the city means one in each Borough, over the next three weeks in the downstate area. Today, at three o'clock at the Pace University Law School, tomorrow at three o'clock at BronxWorks Gym, 11:30, Grand Concourse, Wednesday in Manhattan at the Hunter College - Kaye Playhouse 695 Park Avenue.

The next one is in the following two weeks, but you can attend any one of these virtually via Zoom. David, why don't you make your last answer telling people how they can get that Zoom link?

David Imamura: You register on our website and you specify that you want to testify virtually. We've had over 2,000 people register on our website. Almost a hundred people signed up for Westchester today. Please come and register. Our staff is incredible and they'll definitely accommodate you if you have any special requests or anything you need.

Brian Lehrer: David Imamura and Dr. Ivelisse Cuevas-Molina from New York State's Independent Redistricting Commission. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing this public service with our listeners.

Dr. Ivelisse Cuevas-Molina: Thank you, Brian.

David Imamura: Thank you, Brian.

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