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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We'll talk to both candidates now in what's being rated as one of the closest congressional races in our area. It's the one in Queens and Nassau County to replace Democrat Tom Suozzi, who gave up his seat to run for governor. This is New York's 3rd congressional district, which mostly includes parts of Northeast Queens and the northernmost portion of Nassau County.

After this year's redistricting, it pokes a little further south and a few places like the Massapequa Park, a more Republican area. If you're in Suffolk County towns like Huntington or Dix Hills represented now by Suozzi, you're no longer in District 3 as of this election, so that's a little bit of a map. The district is majority white with Asian Americans being the second largest group.

One notable thing about this election is that it's being called the first ever in the United States between two openly-gay candidates, Republican George Santos and Democrat Robert Zimmerman, but despite that similarity, they are very different on many issues. We've got about 15 minutes with each of them now beginning with George Santos, who demographically identifies as Latino, gay, and Jewish.

His bio page says George's parents fled Jewish persecution in Ukraine, settled in Belgium, and again fled persecution during World War II. They were able to settle in Brazil, where his mother was born. His father, who comes from Angolan roots, was also born in Brazil. George himself was born in Queens. On his professional life, his bio page says he is a seasoned Wall Street financier. Mr. Santos, thanks for joining us. Welcome to WNYC.

George Santos: Thank you for having me, Brian, and thank you for hosting such an important discussion.

Brian Lehrer: I'm going to mostly try to get each of you to establish your similarities and differences on the issues and then voters can, of course, decide who they think more represents their views. First, since you're both gay and the races making history in this respect, I wonder if you are different on issues of gay rights.

Congress, in recent years, has twice passed what they call the Equality Act, which the Democrats describe as extending the protections of the Civil Rights Act to LGBTQ Americans, barring discrimination and employment, education, access to credit, jury service, federal funding, housing, and public accommodations. If you get to Congress, would you vote for those protections for LGBTQ Americans if that bill comes up again?

George Santos: Sure, Brian. That's a great question. Obviously, I'm a gay man. I'm a married gay man. I would always stand up for LGBTQ rights. I think it's almost a waste of time for either Rob or I to have to defend something that's second nature and common sense to both of us. I'm glad that we are focusing-- at least on my part, I'm focusing on the issues that are really important to all Americans living in the 3rd congressional district as to where we're going to be focusing our energy come next Congress, but it's a no-brainer, right?

I'm a gay man. I'm married. Obviously, I'm going to fight for my rights and I want to make sure that youth in our country, young gay men in our country, know that I have their back, and women obviously. Anybody in the LGBT spectrum understand that I have your back. I will advocate for your rights. Everybody deserves equal representation in this country.

Brian Lehrer: That's yes on the Equality Act as it's been proposed?

George Santos: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Okay, let's see. Well, one of your key issues is inflation. Let's go on to that. Sorry for losing my place there for a moment. Obviously, it's a big problem in the country right now, inflation. What do you think a Republican Congress could do about inflation that Democrats won't?

George Santos: Well, the reality is look at the state of the country, right? Democrats control all chambers of government in Washington, DC, and they've given every single American a 10% pay cut, and they will continue to do that by passing more expensive bills that are going to add to the debt and that are going to exacerbate inflation. For instance, my opponent supports up to $50,000 student loan forgiveness.

That would add almost $500 billion to the national debt, which would, in counterbalance, exacerbate inflation. We need to be fiscally responsible. The next Congress needs to be fiscally responsible, step on the brakes on spending, and really reassess and audit all of the waste that's going on in our country so that we can deliver a prosperous America for the next generation.

We have a fundamental and moral obligation to deliver a better country for the next generation and that's why I'm fighting for this American dream. The same American dream my parents came here to live, the same American dream I was afforded the opportunities of, and now the same American dream that I'm seeing wither away and not be available for use in our country.

Brian Lehrer: The Democrats say they passed their bill that they call the Inflation Reduction Act, which would fight inflation with subsidies for renewable energy, for example, and lowering the cost of prescription drugs and health insurance for many people. Are you critical of the Inflation Reduction Act as the Democrats have called it?

George Santos: I don't think it should be called inflation reduction. There's great aspects of the bill. Overall, it's the wrong timing for the bill because it is adding to inflation. It has caused the Fed that bill. Shortly after it was passed, the Feds had to come up and add another 0.75% to interest rates in our country. It did the exact opposite. I understand people are going to say, "It takes a couple of months or years before certain bills give a direct effect," but let's call a spade a spade.

The direction that the country's going, it's unaffordable. The direction that Congress is going with their agenda, it's unaffordable, unsustainable, and Americans are hurting. Americans are less prosperous since Joe Biden took office. Americans are less prosperous since the agenda from Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, and Chuck Schumer was put into effect into our country.

Brian Lehrer: That's criticism of the Democrats. What would the Republican majority in Congress, if there is one, do to lower inflation?

George Santos: Well, on day one, we should end and start the war on energy. The United States is the cleanest place on earth to produce energy. We have EPA standards and the local municipal levels, state levels, and federal levels. Instead of going across over the bridge and through the seas, going to Saudi Arabia and begging OPEC, or going down to South America and begging Venezuela, both countries, you have committed atrocities, an array of humanitarian crises for oil, how about we start drilling here?

How about we reengage in the Keystone XL pipeline that would add back the 40,000-plus direct and indirect jobs that it killed the day that Joe Biden signed the executive order to stop its construction? How about allowing more permitting of drilling within the United States? How about fracking at the Marcellus Shale, which is the third-largest natural gas reserve in the world? These are essential measures that we can take to start lowering inflation in our country because it all leads back to energy.

I'm all for renewable energy. I'm all for ingenuity and creating long-term anchor sustainable jobs for hard-working men and women across this country and in our district, but I also believe that those jobs can't come at the cost of others. I also believe that one industry cannot trample over another. We need to understand that we're not there yet and we cannot eliminate fossil fuels. Maybe we'll be there 10 years from now. Maybe we'll be there 20 years from now.

Today, it is cruel to turn around and put this enormous pressure and war on fossil fuel energy production in our country because it's at the cost of every single American who is paying three times more to heat their homes this winter here on Long Island, or they're paying two times more to fill up their gas tanks here on Long Island. District 3 is a perfect example of how bad things can get as far as the pricing of fuel goes. I support that in my conference. We have a commitment with America. Amongst those things, we are going to tackle inflation by ending the war on energy.

Brian Lehrer: It sounds like, and correct me if I'm putting this inaccurately, you believe that man-made climate change is real. You just think we have the luxury of going slower to prevent it for the sake of Queens and Long Island, the impacts there and everywhere else, that we have the luxury that we have the time to go slower to prevent it than the Democrats want to go. Would that be accurate?

George Santos: No, that's inaccurate. I didn't say we have the luxury or time to go slower. I'm just saying that we have to assess the situation for what it is. Whether or not we have 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, we've heard many people make bold statements in the past based with no scientific evidence. Al Gore was one of the most famous ones, and what happened? We need to be responsible and stop with the fear-mongering on the status and the state of the climate. We need to address the current economic situation of all Americans that are being burdened by such bold statements.

I believe in science. I support scientists. I want to make sure we do the right thing, but the right thing needs to be well-calculated, well-timed, and making sure that we are not putting people out of life, out of business, or people out of affordability and pricing people out of their own lifestyle in the name of a lot of these bold, unscientific-- with no backing of science, let's just put it that way, such as Al Gore did earlier in the 2000s.

Brian Lehrer: Are you saying that you don't think science has demonstrated that man-made global warming is real and a serious threat to your district?

George Santos: Again, I did not say that. I'm saying that the climate cycle is proven to be real and we're living in it and we need to address it. I want to know at what cost are we going to expedite these bold initiatives such as California eradicating all fossil fuel vehicles by 2035 in the midst of having blackouts and shutdowns and telling people to turn off their ACs when it's 103 degrees outside because their grid can't sustain it. That's what I'm talking about.

We need to upgrade our infrastructure. We need to deliver results on our back end to make sure that when we're taking those bold initiatives, we are prepared. We are not prepared as a country today to do those things. We need to start working towards the bottom up. Building a basic infrastructure platform where it can sustain the aggressive approach that most of these states are trying to make so that when it is ready to roll out at a national level, we are prepared.

We're not caught off-guard with blackouts or insufficient amount of power to power homes. We also need to understand that we have the alternative and option to also integrating nuclear energy into our society, which is the cleanest and safest and the smallest footprint possible available to deliver energy, right? We've proven to learn that. Chernobyl will never happen again.

Fukushima was a disaster that a blind person could have told you, "Don't build a nuclear power plant on a fault line by the ocean." These are things we've learned as society. We've enhanced and we've created the ability to be responsible and smarter. I believe in the science. I believe in the ability of the ingenuity of the next generation that is designing resources to make sure that nuclear is also part of our future so that we can deliver a clean, emissionless energy production.

Brian Lehrer: Also on the economy, I see that your website says, "George is committed to supporting a bill that would change the tax code to a flat tax rate." Does that mean you would abolish the progressive income tax? A $10 million earner pays the same percentage in taxes as someone who earns a regular income?

George Santos: Well, if you're talking percentage, sure, but you need to equate 10% of $1 million as a $100,000 versus 10% of $1,000, which is a $100, right? I think that, still, flat tax would be probably the most fair way to go for our society, where I think we would prosper more and we'd collect more tax dollars. There'd be no loopholes. There'd be no crazy deductions and ways out of paying your fair share of taxes for high earners. I think it's really a benefit for society and for our country.

Brian Lehrer: You don't think that would mean much less revenue for the federal government if all those high earners, who now pay 30%-something marginal rates, went down to a flat tax rate?

George Santos: Well, it would increase federal taxes by twofold. That's simply because you would remove all the deductions that those 37%-what high earners are supposed to pay, but then they have all the loopholes of deductions here and deductions there and exchanges here and exchanges there. The reality is you're really putting everybody on an even playing field. I think the federal government would be able to break off its deficit.

Brian Lehrer: We're almost out of time. Let me get you briefly on the stolen election claims and abortion rights. On the question of democracy, Newsday reported that at a recent forum in response to a question about a legislative effort to overhaul the way Congress certifies presidential elections, your opponent, Robert Zimmerman, who will be our next guest, accused you of having been at Trump's "Save America" rally on The Ellipse on January 6th and supporting the false claim that the 2020 election was stolen. Were you there at the January 6th rally?

George Santos: To answer your question, being at a rally doesn't necessarily say you support claims of stolen election. I've never ever claimed that the election was stolen. I've always acknowledged Joe Biden as the winner of the 2020 election. I'm on record saying that too. This is, again, another fabrication coming from my opponent's camp, saying that I declined the result of the election.

Brian Lehrer: Lastly, on the issue of reproductive rights, Mitch McConnell says, "If Republicans take Congress, a national abortion ban might pass." Lindsey Graham has actually proposed one. Your race might be the difference on which party has control. Would you vote for a national abortion ban bill of any kind if one was introduced?

George Santos: The Dobbs decision gave the power back to the states. I will not trample the Constitution, so I will be a no-vote for that bill.

Brian Lehrer: There we leave it with George Santos, the Republican candidate for the 3rd congressional district seat that Tom Suozzi is vacating in Northeast Queens and parts of Nassau County. That redistricting did take Suffolk out of the district, right?

George Santos: Yes, it did. All of it.

Brian Lehrer: George Santos, thank you very much.

George Santos: Thank you, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: We'll talk to the Democratic candidate, Robert Zimmerman. Next.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We're talking to both candidates in the 3rd congressional district race in New York. This is one of the races in our area that is considered the closest by those who watch such things. We just spoke to the Republican candidate, George Santos. Now, we move on to Democratic candidate Robert Zimmerman, a longtime Democratic Party official and congressional aide.

His bio page says his work as a senior aide for Congressman Lester Wolff and, later, Congressman James Scheuer cites those jobs. It says, representing communities across Long Island and Queens. Later on, Robert continued involvement in the congressional district by advising close friend and longtime representative Gary Ackerman. As some of those names of past Congress members might indicate, Robert Zimmerman is a generation older than George Santos. He is 67. Santos is 34.

Again, this 3rd congressional district is parts of Northeast Queens and a lot of Northern Nassau County now after the redistricting this year, going a little further south down to around Massapequa Park, which is an area that tends to run more Republican, but it no longer crosses the Nassau-Suffolk line. If you're in Huntington, for example, Dix Hills, Commack, you're no longer in this district. I think we have Robert Zimmerman on the line. Mr. Zimmerman, are you there?

Robert Zimmerman: Good morning. Good to be with you. Just for the record, while I'm very proud of my political activism over the years, I make my living as a small business owner. I've owned a small business now for 33 years in the congressional district, where I've lived since I was nine years of age and went to our public schools. That's what I do for a living in case some of your listeners were wondering besides my political activism. I'm 68 years of age by the way.

Brian Lehrer: You turned 68 since I last read that bio on you and called you 67.

Robert Zimmerman: [chuckles] You're right.

Brian Lehrer: I characterized Mr. Santos demographically reading from his bio as gay, Latino, and Jewish. How would you describe yourself demographically?

Robert Zimmerman: I would describe myself as a proud gay man, a proud member of the Jewish faith, and a proud citizen of our nation and the 3rd congressional district.

Brian Lehrer: I asked him since you are making history, both of you in this race for being openly gay congressional candidates from the two major parties. From what I've read, that's never happened before. He said that he would support the Equality Act that the Democrats have voted on in Congress but is stalled in the Senate because the Republicans won't vote for it. He said he would support the Equality Act, which would bring LGBTQ Americans under the Civil Rights Act. Do you have any difference on LGBTQ rights issues that you would cite with Mr. Santos?

Robert Zimmerman: [chuckles] On virtually everyone. First, I give you credit, Brian. It took him a long time to get to admitting he would support the Equality Act in your interview. I think you had asked him the question three times. Fortunately, he finally said he would. On issues of marriage equality, codifying marriage equality according to newspaper reports, he hesitated on that and was not definitive in saying he would support that.

George Santos is on record supporting the "Don't Say Gay" legislation that's up in 19 states in our country. You see, I'm very proud of the fact that-- What I was going to say, when I was a kid growing up and I was a closeted gay kid living in the suburbs in the '70s, my goodness, I never dreamed we'd have a member of the LGBTQ+ community for everything in Long Island and Queens in Congress.

I never even, of course, fathomed that I might be that person. I take it very seriously and take the opportunity very proudly because I find as I campaign throughout the district, so many young parents, in particular, come up to me worried about their children's future who are members of the LGBTQ+ community. The optimism we had after marriage equality has dissipated.

The fear they face for their children's future in terms of being protected, being safe, and secure, the fear that confronts somebody of our trans, young people, the transgender community, these are real clear and present threats that they face in today's society. The fact that George and I are both gay is not really the point. The point is, who's going to stand up for the community?

Brian Lehrer: The supporters of so-called "Don't Say Gay" would say it's not about being anti-gay. It's about age-appropriate introduction of sex ed and gender content in the public schools. How would you respond to that?

Robert Zimmerman: It is about ostracizing the gay community. It's about making them the other. It is about spreading more misinformation and fear. Young children, when they do their first art project, which is, "Do a picture of your family," shouldn't be uptight about the fact they have two moms or two dads. Teachers should not hesitate putting up pictures of their same-sex spouse on their desks at school. This is nothing more than an effort to play upon the politics of the time, to create culture wars if you will, and to use the LGBTQ+ community as a target in culture wars. I think that's what we have to be very mindful of.

It's a further effort to engage in discrimination and ostracize. Let me tell you something. I fought those fights in the '70s growing up. I used to sit in my diner, the '70s diner in Great Neck on a Friday night because I was embarrassed to tell my folks. I didn't have a date for the dance or I didn't have a date for the weekend. I went to a friend I trusted, an older person, who advised me to try conversion therapy, which I didn't do. My point is, I have lived those traumas. I'm not going to see another new generation of children in the LGBTQ+ community pushed back in the closet. Not on my watch.

Brian Lehrer: This is WNYC-FM HD and AM New York, WNJT-FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are New York and New Jersey Public Radio and live streaming at wnyc.org. We're speaking to both candidates in the hotly-contested 3rd congressional district in Northeast Queens and, mostly, the northern portions of Nassau County. We spoke to Republican George Santos just before. We have Democrat Robert Zimmerman here now.

Mr. Santos is running very much on economic issues. Inflation is the number one issue on his website. He says you would be bad for inflation for a number of reasons. One of the things that he just cited in our interview is that you support $50,000 in forgiveness of student loan debt, which he says is economically unsustainable and would explode the federal debt. President Biden gave a $10,000 student loan debt forgiveness, which the Republicans also oppose, but is $50,000 not excessive in terms of what it would do to inflation?

Robert Zimmerman: Look, at this stage right now, I'm supporting President Biden's initiative for $10,000 relief. Let's remember. When we talk about this issue or we're talking about helping young people start their lives, many of them, student loan debt is escalating dramatically because the cost of college keeps escalating so dramatically. It's interesting that you don't hear from George Santos or the Republicans complain about the Trump tax cut bill that increased our national deficit between $1.5 trillion and $2 trillion.

That's okay, but you talk about giving young people a break in their student loan debt so they can hopefully start contributing back to society, putting their money into maybe buying a house, maybe starting a family, being productive members of our community economically. That, they're appalled by. I think the President made a good first step here. I think we have to have free trade schools and community colleges to help young people move into the workplace in meaningful jobs and be able to move into the middle class and expand their life opportunities.

I think there are many steps that can be taken. We also have to address the cost of college. I would tie that to the rate of inflation and use the leverage of federal grants and state grants and funding to hold them to that. There are many steps that have to be taken, but let's be serious though. He criticizes federal spending by the Biden administration. For example, George Santos advocates privatizing social security.

Just think of what that would mean to our senior population if they had to rely upon the stock market, for example, to depend upon their retirement. He actually opposed the bipartisan infrastructure bill. That is such an important job creator for so many parts of our country, for our district in terms of protecting our water quality, retrofitting our sewage treatment plants, protecting and cleaning up our roads, improving them.

He opposed the actual bipartisan infrastructure bill and recently condemned the program to reduce the cost of prescription drugs. That would be so important for Medicare recipients, capping insulin to $35 a month, a total outlay of $2,000 a year for Medicare recipients. Let's speak seriously. He's not worried about fighting inflation. He's just engaging in the typical writing agenda of attacking programs that help the middle class.

Brian Lehrer: In our interview just now, he affirmed the position that I cited from his website that he would abolish the progressive income tax and go to a flat income tax rate. People earning $10 million in the example I gave would pay the same percentage of their income as somebody making a regular income. He says that would be much fairer though because 10% of $10 million to use a hypothetical number is a lot more than 10% of $50,000. He says that would, in his view, actually double the amount of revenue that the federal government takes in because it would also close a lot of loopholes. What's your response to abolishing the progressive income tax and replacing it with a flat tax?

Robert Zimmerman: I think George Santos learned economics at Trump University. Remember that? The university was closed down because it was a scam. The reality here simply is it is an egregious idea. It's one that even most conservatives have given up because, at the end of the day, it's a windfall for the very top tier of our society and it penalizes people living on fixed incomes, penalizes the middle class, and would be, I think, an egregiously dangerous idea. I'm very much opposed to that, but this is just typical of the kind of misinformation that George is putting out.

I just wanted to, if I can, do one quick fact-check with you or two when he was talking about abortion. George Santos is on record very publicly advocating a national ban on abortions with no exceptions, even saying he would prosecute doctors and nurses who provided abortion care, and actually went on record in an interview mocking women, claiming they would use rape as an excuse to get an abortion. That's just the kind of hateful, misogynistic rhetoric that has no place in the discussion. As far as he's accepting the--

Brian Lehrer: He did say in our interview that he would vote against the national abortion ban if it comes up in Congress.

Robert Zimmerman: Well, I think the reason we call this a 3rd district is he gets three answers to every question. That's what he told you, but what he said in other interviews, he supports a national ban on abortion as I said with no exceptions. On the issue of election, on the 2020 January election, not only was he at The Ellipse, he actually bragged about paying the legal fees for the insurrectionists who were, in fact, arrested for rioting the Capitol and engaging in such violence that five police officers were killed and over 100 police officers were injured. He defended their right to be in the Capitol. This is on record, public interviews. Certainly, when it comes to the 2020 election, he claimed that President Trump's election was stolen and he claimed his own election was stolen when he lost by 13%. I can read you the quotes, Brian, if you have the time.

Brian Lehrer: He did not claim that here today. You heard that, right, that the Biden election was stolen?

Robert Zimmerman: He said on November 6th, 2020, he said, "The rampant fraud of these elections is frightening. I urge the FBI, CIA, and DOJ to intervene and stop the counting of illegal votes." Then on the "Stop the Steal," he said, "I will not let what is happening all across the country happen here in New York 3. My opponent is making irresponsible and founded predictions on the news cycle. DNC will not steal this seat that people have spoken."

When he lost by 13% in his own congressional district, he claimed it was stolen. That's the mentality we're facing from extremists. They are prepared to undermine our democracy, our constitution for the self-serving agenda of trying to steal an election and trying to undermine it. I wanted to set the record straight on that, Brian, because I know what he said to you, but this is what he said on the record on Twitter, what he said in public interviews.

Brian Lehrer: All right. I asked him about one of the proposals on his site, that flat tax. I'm going to ask you about one of yours on your site, Medicare for All. Has the public not rejected the Medicare-for-All idea? Would you abolish all private insurance for a government system?

Robert Zimmerman: No, I wouldn't abolish all private insurance. I think we have to guarantee health care for every citizen. Brian, we saw in the pandemic when 23 million people lost their jobs, they lost their health care in the middle of a healthcare pandemic. What Medicare for All-- there are very different versions of it, but the version that I think makes the most sense is to have Medicare for everyone as a baseline of health insurance coverage. People can buy supplemental insurance if they choose to do so.

I mentioned before, I'm a small business owner. We pay for health insurance for our employees. The single biggest expense we have is the health insurance for our employees. This should be an economic benefit for small business. It would finally do the right thing that our society should-- We finally join the rest of the western world and the rest of industrialized nations by guaranteeing health care for all Americans. It's the right thing to do and it's also economically good sense for business.

Brian Lehrer: Last issue. Climate and energy. Mr. Santos said we need to be doing more to produce all kinds of energy right now. One of the reasons we have a lot of inflation is Democrats are cutting down on the production of fossil fuels. We need everything right now even if technology might advance to the point in 10 years or whatever that we can have more renewables. What's your response to that?

Robert Zimmerman: Well, my last debate with George Santos, he actually said the climate crisis was all cyclical and this was just the course of nature.

Brian Lehrer: He did refer in our interview as well to the climate cycle when I asked him if he believed man-made climate change was real. He didn't say yes or no to that.

Robert Zimmerman: By the way, he canceled all the subsequent debates we had after that last debate. Let me be very clear. The climate crisis is real. If you respect science, you have to understand that. Obviously, we're not going to just cut off fossil fuel immediately. It's wrong to do that for our economy. It's wrong for national security, but we have to make a commitment to transition out of it and focus on renewables and focus on dealing with greenhouse gas emissions and make a real commitment to do it.

Brian Lehrer: Last question. How fast is too fast? He cited, for example, California's plan to restrict the sale of gas-powered cars by 2035. I think New York actually, the state that you're both running in, has the same plan. Too fast, too much burden. Your position.

Robert Zimmerman: Well, frankly, he has no way of gauging that. Quite frankly, I'm not going to tell you what the best timeline is. I have to tell you, we have to make a commitment to get it done. We've got to give ourselves goals and deadlines to do it. That's the first step we take. I'm encouraged by seeing local governments and state governments and, hopefully, the federal government take those important steps to create time frames to take action.

I think the fact that we saw under the Biden administration, the largest investment in clean energy union jobs, addressing the climate crisis in our nation's history in the most recent piece of legislation that was passed, the Inflation Reduction Act, is very, very encouraging. Now, George Santos opposed of that. If you recognize the climate crisis is real and you recognize we have to deal with the urgency of the matter right now, then you would be supporting this great investment in creating clean energy union jobs.

Brian Lehrer: Robert Zimmerman, the Democratic candidate to succeed Tom Suozzi in the 3rd congressional district in parts of Queens and Nassau County. We heard earlier from the Republican candidate, George Santos. Mr. Zimmerman, thanks so much for joining us today.

Robert Zimmerman: Great to be with you. Thank you so much.

 

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