Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now a candidate interview with Governor Phil Murphy as he runs for reelection. We had his Republican challenger, Jack Ciattarelli on a recent show. Now it's governor Murphy's turn for my questions and yours. Governor thanks for doing this. Welcome back to WNYC.

Governor Phil Murphy: Good to be with you, Brian. Thank you for having me

Brian Lehrer: Listeners we can take some campaign questions from you for Governor Phil Murphy as he runs for reelection, 646-435-7280. Questions on his record, on being a Democrat versus a Republican today, or some of the topics we'll get to as we got to with Mr. Ciattarelli on income or educational inequality, fair taxation. Same main things we talked about in the previous interview if you heard that. Anything, that's a campaign or policy question you were and raised at 646-435-7280. 646-435-7280. or a tweet @BrianLehrer for Governor Murphy.

Let me start, as I did with Mr. Ciattarelli about partisan identification and what it means today. I asked him what makes him a Republican and he cited what he described as Abraham Lincoln's philosophy of education. "Government investment in infrastructure. Stress providing individuals with economic opportunity and empowering the individual with Liberty and that's what leads to all kinds of freedom". He said. Do you think that you believe less in the centrality of the individual and that that's a difference between Democrats and Republicans today?

Governor Phil Murphy: I don't know that I believe less in the centrality of the individual, but I believe in government and that government could do good particularly when there's nowhere else to turn. I think we've seen that over the past 20 months, government stepping up playing an indispensable role. I think Democrats believe we don't believe in government for the sake of believing in government, but we believe government went done well could do good. Our mantra has been stronger, fairer, forward and that means the government plays a meaningful role in that process.

We're digging out of inequities in some cases that have been building for over 400 years. It won't be like turning a light switch to turn this thing around overnight, but government can play an indispensable role when done right. It's not government for the sake of government, but it is belief that both the individual and government can coexist and each do their part.

Brian Lehrer: On those inequities, I cited to Mr. Ciattarelli and I'll cite to you a statistic on economic inequality in New Jersey from the New Jersey Institute for Social Justice. It's says the median wealth for a white family in New Jersey is around $352,000, for a Black family, only $6,000, and only $7,000 for Latino families. In response to that, Mr. Ciattarelli said the very same statistics about economic inequality might have been applied to the Italian, Polish and Jewish immigrants who came to the United States 100 years ago and empowering individuals with liberty was what led to those groups, largely becoming more prosperous here. How much would you disagree with his take on history in that respect?

Governor Phil Murphy: Listen, there's an obvious disagreement and that is the African-American community in New Jersey came here as a forced reality, this was not of their own free will. Where I think in year 402, since slavery first came to our shores in North America and the fact of the matter is folks did not come here because they chose to, they were forced to come here and then treated as literal second class citizens for centuries. I think with all due respect to why others have come here, there's a huge, huge reality as it relates to the African-American community in our state and our country.

The net worth figures are totally unacceptable, they're numbers that I speak to often. They're the animating reasons why we've done a lot of what we've done, whether it's raising minimum wage or making healthcare air more accessible. We've formed a wealth disparity task force to finally stop kicking the can down the road. Basically say enough is enough, but they're unacceptable levels.

Brian Lehrer: We had a caller with Mr. Ciattarelli who asked with his life experiences and his experiences in politics, how would he define white privilege? He struggled with that and said, he didn't understand the question and ultimately did not offer a definition of white privilege. I'll ask you. With your life experiences and your experience in politics, how would you define white privilege?

Governor Phil Murphy: We know the history of structural racism in our country and look at the results, whether it's redlining, or the wealth gap you just raised Brian, or maternal and infant mortality rates, healthcare outcomes more broadly. This isn't a matter of opinion, this is real. To me, white privilege is the flip side of all of that and more. That basically the inherent advantage you have of being born white.

It means acknowledging our nation's history of slavery and the stain of racism, and that they're directly related. They're not just in the history books, they're directly related to our present. I heard him give his answer and my reaction is if you can't even bring yourself to discuss the issue, you're not gonna do anything about it and that's not just any state. This is the most diverse state in America. We've got to face the tough issues and we have to commit to representing everybody. I think we've done that in our administration and if I'm reelected we'll continue to do that.

Brian Lehrer: You named some of your policies a minute ago that you think are aimed at that. In this regard, I asked Mr. Ciattarelli about his campaign position, that he would make the property tax system flatter and fairer as he calls it. He indirectly acknowledged that would mean less aid to lower income school districts. Here's part of his answer with respect to inequities in the current taxing system that he argued should be addressed.

Mr. Ciattarelli: I will never adversely affect the quality of education, but what we do need while achieving those goals is a flatter and more equitable distribution of state aid. It is not fair that a million dollar home in Jersey City and Hoboken pay less in property taxes than a $400,000 home in Toms River, Hillsborough, or Parsippany and a great many other towns across the state, that's not fair. The reason why that die dynamic exists is because of the current school funding formula. Phil Murphy continues to send state aid to people that own million dollar homes in places like Hoboken and Jersey city. I don't think that's fair if they're paying less in property taxes than a $400,000 home in again, Toms River, Hillsborough or Parsippany.

Brian Lehrer: Governor will you acknowledge that the current school funding formula has people with million dollar homes in Hoboken and Jersey city paying less in property taxes than people with $400,000 homes in Toms River, Hillsborough, or Parsippany. That that has to do with the school funding formula and that that's not fair?

Governor Phil Murphy: Let me say this, Chris Christie tried this in 2016, and he was shouted out of the state basically. Still one of the most unpopular things done by a very unpopular governor. This is literally pulling, he's throwing out a million dollar home in Jersey city, this is classic us versus them. This is pulling the rug out from under Black and brown communities, Black and brown kids. We know the disproportionate funding in those communities, by the way, back to your question about does structural racism or white privilege still exist? You bet and we've made a lot of progress in New Jersey.

We have the number one public education system in America, but there are too many inequities still. So we've thrown a lot of resources at that. There's no reason why we can't both do that and deliver meaningful affordability relief to that home owner in Tom's River or Parsippany. It's not one or the other, it's got to be and both. He knows exactly what he's saying here, this is pitting us against them. This will be devastating to communities, overwhelmingly Black and brown communities.

Brian Lehrer: If you're saying that fairness and property tax reform still needs to be done, you haven't been able to get that done in your first four years?

Governor Phil Murphy: We have Brian, the four years I've been in office are four of the lowest property tax increases on average in the state's history. Now there's still increases, we inherited a mess period, but we inherited an affordability mess in particular and we have made progress. If you're working family right now you're paying less in income tax. You're paying less for healthcare. Less for childcare. You're able to afford college. NJ transit fares have not gone up. Are we still a work in progress? You bet you, but the answer is not dividing us and pitting us versus them.

That was the Trump playbook. The Christie playbook. That's the last thing we need right now in New Jersey.

Brian Lehrer: Well, just to follow up on this one more time. What Mr. Ciattarelli was suggesting about the school funding formula, I think is that it creates unfairness for those homeowners, but doesn't improve education enough for low income kids to be worth it. There are better ways to ensure an equal quality education. Can you argue that the taxpayers-

Governor Phil Murphy: He's dead wrong. We know progress has been made in the districts which have had a disproportionate funding support from the state. The facts are crystal clear. Why would we get off the journey just as were finally scratching, stopping kicking those cans down the road, and finally getting these communities on their feet. It would be an awful, it's literally pulling the rug out from underneath. That doesn't mean we can't make Toms River more affordable, I wake up every day trying to do just that.

I've just read off a string of things that I think are real evidence that we're making progress. To go to a so-called flat funding format-- And by the way, he knows this. He knows that this is what would result, and he’s trying to animate some kind of Right Wing base of this, and it would be devastating to those communities. We're not going to do it as long as I'm governor.

Brian Lehrer: You think the taxpayers of New Jersey are getting their money's worth in terms of value for their dollars in reducing educational disparities?

Governor Phil Murphy: It is a work in progress without question, but when 53% of your property tax bill is for public education on average in New Jersey, which is true. The Christie administration, by the way with assemblyman Ciattarelli by his side for six of the eight years. Underfunding the school funding formula by $9.2 billion, we have turned that ship around.

We're not in the end zone. It is a work in progress, but we're finally funding public education at the levels it needs to be funded. By the way, we're getting largely the results that you would hope for, including the number one public education system in America. Still with inequities, but less inequity that we got here four years ago.

Brian Lehrer: Michelle in Ocean Township, you're on WNYC with Governor Murphy. Hello, Michelle.

Michelle: Hi, Governor Murphy.

Governor Phil Murphy: Hi, Michelle.

Michelle: Hi, Brian. Thanks for taking my call. First time caller. I live in Ocean Township, I've been here for six years now, coming from Jersey City. The amount of development is staggering, it's unheard of. People are not only getting pushed out of the middle-class here, but development on Lenape Land, which this is fitting for today being Indigenous People's Day. Knowing Lenape land, this is 32acres.org, for those of you that want more information. It's the corner of DO Road and 35.

Our township has not only allowed this particular program or this progress to happen with Wawa, but this is a watershed that flows directly into the Atlantic Ocean. I want to do, as an active voter, what you're going to do to not only stop this overdevelopment, but the pollution of our waterways by big gas stations like Wawa and quick check in watershed areas. This is also happening in Neptune on the route 35 circle. What are your plans for environmental protection?

Governor Phil Murphy: That's pretty serious stuff, Michelle. I want to get our commissioner of the department of environmental protection, Shawn LaTourette. Brian, can we find a way to get back to callers with specific question?

Brian Lehrer: Oh, sure. You want us to take her contact information off the air?

Governor Phil Murphy: Yes. That would be great if she's okay with that.

Brian Lehrer: Michelle hang on. We can do that.

Governor Phil Murphy: As a general matter, Brian, we're the most densely populated state-- That's concerning what I've just heard from her, so I need to get right into the details of that. We’re the most densely populated state in America. You can't get a gentleman fee on your environmental record or your plan to tackle climate change. I think we've got the most aggressive strategy in place of any American state, but we've got a lot of people moving to New Jersey. Her question is a very fair one.

We saw some of the devastation from the awful storm, Ida, including loss of life or Henri right before it. Some of it directly related to development in heretofore undeveloped areas where water would have been more naturally running off. We've gotten cornered over the years, if you will. We take this stuff very, very seriously. Resiliency, how we think about developing the state. Blue Acre plans to take people out of their homes if need be. Natural runoff, as well as manmade barriers. All of that is on the table and in many cases works in progress.

Brian Lehrer: Michelle, hang on and screeners heads up. See if you can take Michelle's contact information off the air if she wants to leave it. Jim in Toms River, you're on WNYC with Governor Murphy running for reelection. Hi, Jim.

Jim: Hi. Good morning. My question is about the-

Brian Lehrer: Hi, Jim.

Jim: -veterans homes. How are you doing? We just had a COVID death and were the veterans’ homes, and as you know, we had the most COVID deaths in all the veterans’ homes during the peak of the pandemic. I just wanted to know what you're doing about that, and are there any leadership plans to be changed in the Department of Military and Veterans Affairs considering that it's just a revolving door there?

Governor Phil Murphy: Jim, God bless. Listen, the tragedy within the tragedy was long-term care, particularly early on and within that are blessed veterans who paid an awful price. Respectively Menlo Park, Paramus, Vineland, 64, 81, 12, those numbers I right down every day in terms of losses of life. The 12th at Vineland is the one that Jim is referring to, which was last week. Bless them all. Thank God the losses of life and even infections in our veteran homes are coming with less frequency and please God it stays that way.

We've already made a bunch of changes with head, we have a new leadership of the Department of Military and Veteran Affairs, Dr. Lisa Hou, importantly, a medical professional in her own right. I think she's doing an outstanding job. We've also signed a bunch of bills directed at how the veterans homes are managed and inspected. Which I was more than proud to do, so that if something awful like this hits us again out of the blue, that we're much more resilient and much better prepared.

Brian, it's fair to say, long-term care. Residents are by their nature still going to be the most exposed and concerning residents in our state. That's why getting that booster, if you had your Pfizer shot is going to be imperative in doing all the smart things in each of the long-term care communities to prevent any spread that may come back

Brian Lehrer: Well, you know the Ciattarelli campaign is running a commercial that includes a soundbite that appears to be somebody from your administration, talking to somebody at a nursing home in the early days of the pandemic about transferring people back into the nursing homes from the hospital. Somebody from the nursing home saying, "You know that people will die." You're being tagged by Ciattarelli at least with responsibility for that in a similar way to how Governor Cuomo was in New York. What's your response?

Governor Phil Murphy: Well, it's not similar, Brian. First of all, let's not ignore the tragedy. The loss of life was overwhelming, not just to New Jersey, and around the country, around the world, particularly in long-term care. We were explicit crystal clear, Judith Persichilli, our great health commissioner and myself personally, in whatever directors or executive orders. Remember, these are residences. A long-term care, a veterans home, this is a residence. This is not like they're going to the hospital. They're returning to their homes.

We were explicit that returning residents needed to be separated, whether it's by floor, by wing, by building. The staff that served them also needed to be separated so that you could not have a staff member caring for both someone who had been COVID as well as someone who had not been COVID. Did some of these long-term care centers violate that? Well, if they did, they will face the consequences. Some of them have been fined, we've done thousands of spot inspections. That's a fact, it was not as far as I understand New York was, it was explicitly not that case.

Brian Lehrer: Not a policy of transferring back to nursing homes. What does that soundbite say if the person seemed to be protesting, but people will die and then it presumably happened anyway?

Governor Phil Murphy: I have no idea who that was or why they said it, but I'm telling you, we were explicit when residents returned to their long-term care, they had to be cohorted. Separated by wing, by floor, by building, if there's more than one building, and the staff that served them likewise. You had uneven performance. I'll use a charitable phrase here by the long-term care community in terms of the owners and operators. Did some of them ignore that advice? Sadly, perhaps yes. That was not for our being muddled about what the directive was. It was clear.

Brian Lehrer: Here's one more clip from a Ciattarelli campaign commercial. This time it's a clip of you that he has chosen to highlight regarding taxes. Here it is.

Mr. Ciattarelli: I would say this if you're a one-issue voter and tax rate is your issue. We're probably not your state.

Brian Lehrer: Mr. Ciattarelli asks, "Who says that we're probably not your state when you're the governor?" Can you defend that?

Governor Phil Murphy: First of all, it's taken out of context. I'll leave that aside, because he does a good job of that. Brian, here's what I was trying to say. It was frankly, I think directed, it was a discussion about businesses, not as families. We inherited an affordability mess, and we have been working very hard day in and day out to address that and we've made a significant amount of progress. Some states when they sell themselves, their bumper sticker is very simple. Come here, no income taxes. You figure out what your bumper sticker is, and that's the states that try to lead with that when they're trying to attract businesses and in some cases, families.

Our bumper sticker is a bigger one, a broader one. I'll give you my best answer as to what it is, which is we're the number one state in America to raise a family. Now, what does that entail? That means the best public schools in America. It means among the best healthcare systems in America. It means a location second to none that we need to invest aggressively in as we are in the infrastructure in particular. It means the quality of life. It means extraordinary diversity. It also is extraordinary density, as I mentioned a few minutes ago.

New Jersey on its best days and we're getting there, I really believe we are sunrise right now in New Jersey. Our best days where you could say honestly, it's a good value for money state. You're never going to be the low-cost state to live in or do business in, but you get a lot back for living in New Jersey. Getting that equation in balance is my-- I wake up every single day with that singular objective in my gun sites.

Brian Lehrer: As a follow up, and we're going to run out of time at the top of the hour here, so you can also make any closing remarks you want to make. As a follow-up NJ spotlight has a stat that the size of New Jersey's annual budget has grown 30% since you took office in 2018. Mr. Ciattarelli is asking in an ad, if people think they're 30% better off as a result. If you accept the stat, can you argue you're not growing the size of government too quickly, or that people are actually benefiting proportionately from that?

Governor Phil Murphy: Two things, Brian, number one, we have fewer employees in the state than the day I put my hand on the Bible. That is a fact. Number two, when you don't pay your bills as Chris Christie and Jack Ciattarelli did when they were in office before I got here, those bills are still due. Somebody has got to pay the bills. I've said enough, I'm not kicking the can down the road. When they underfund public education by $9.2 billion, putting our kids, particularly in Black and brown communities at risk, I'm not going to do that anymore. I'm going to stop kicking that can, and I'm going to fund public education.

When they're fair-weather friends on paying the pension payments that our public employees have faithfully paid into, and then they kicked that can down the road. I'm not going to do that. In this one budget, this year's budget, I put $6.905 billion on one day into the pension system. $5.6 billion was payments in arrears for not paying our bills in the past. That's why the budget has gone up because I've stopped kicking the cans down the road, the ones that they kicked willfully year after year.

Brian Lehrer: Governor Phil Murphy, thanks for sitting for this campaign interview as you run for reelection and answering my questions and those from our callers, we really appreciate it.

Governor Phil Murphy: Great to be back with you, Brian. Thanks for having me.

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