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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. With me now for a candidate interview is the Republican nominee for governor of New Jersey, Jack Ciattarelli. He's 59 years old, grew up in Raritan where I read that his grandparents had immigrated to from Italy, used to serve in the state legislature from around there, call it west and little south of New York city.

If you're not a Jerseyite who knows the state, the 16th assembly district, which also includes Princeton, South Brunswick, Flemington, Manville, Somerville, and out to the Pennsylvania line over there. He went to Seaton Hall for both the bachelors in accounting and a master's in finance.

As you heard in our recap of their first debate on yesterday's show, he disagrees with the incumbent Democrat, Phil Murphy, on a whole lot of issues ranging from property taxes and education to abortion funding and guns. Mr. Ciattarelli, thanks so much for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Jack Ciattarelli: Well, it's great to be with you. Thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Do you want to introduce yourself personally a little more to our listeners, those who may not be familiar with you? Did I get it right that your grandparents immigrated from Italy to the Raritan area?

Jack Ciattarelli: I couldn't have asked for a better introduction. You did your homework. You nailed it. Yes. My grandparents came here from Italy about 100 years ago, settled in Raritan, New Jersey, Somerset county, a small Italian enclave. My mother was one of eight from Brooklyn. She was born here and my parents met in the summer of '49, married in 1950 and raised four children. It was a magnificent middle class upbringing here in New Jersey.

They owned a restaurant bar, my parents did. I think their entrepreneurship and owning their own business is what motivated all their children, all three of us. My sister, my brother, and I have all been small business owners in New Jersey employing fellow New Jersians. I did serve at every level of state government, municipal government. I know what potholes and public safety are all about.

County government, I know what infrastructure and social services are all about. Three two-year terms in the state legislature. I know what waste inefficiencies and a government corrupted by special interests are all about.

Brian Lehrer: How do you think that middle class childhood that you referenced influenced your becoming a Republican?

Jack Ciattarelli: Knowing how to do more with less certainly has influenced me in my life. Being able to identify with everyday hardworking New Jersians is certainly a great influence in my life, but also the notion of supporting the individual, empowering the individual with liberty. My parents always taught us to be self-sufficient. They always told us we are our brother's and sister's keeper but they believed in self-reliance and they believed in being self-sufficient. Not being a burden to your community if at all possible.

More than anything, what influenced me in being Republican is just being in love with the Abraham Lincoln philosophy on life and the government. Those have been the major influences in me being Republican.

Brian Lehrer: Abraham Lincoln philosophy. A lot of Democrats, maybe a lot of African Americans would bristle at that coming from a Republican today. When you talk about the individual, that would probably be different from what many Democrats may want as an orientation right now, which would be something more toward equity in a very unequal time as the first word out of somebody's mouth. How critical are you of more equity being a central organizing principle for a political candidate in 2021?

Jack Ciattarelli: Abraham Lincoln was all about education, government investment in infrastructure, and providing individuals with economic opportunity because that's what provides freedom, liberty, and the opportunity to live your life, the pursuit of life liberty and the likes. We want people to know they can achieve their American dream here in New Jersey. The way to do this is by providing opportunity and security and that's really what it is that I'm all about.

Again, I believe in the individual. I believe in empowering the individual with liberty and that's what leads to all kinds of freedom. Really, that's what I'm all about as a person. I've always gone out as a candidate to talk about how a common sense conservative approach to governance is what provides opportunity and security, the two things that everybody wants.

Brian Lehrer: I'm going to follow up on why empowering the individual, which you've been emphasizing a couple of times already doesn't lead to more inequality if that's your central grounding. For example, according to a report last year from the New Jersey Institute for Social Justice, the median wealth for a white family in New Jersey is around $352,000. For a Black New Jersey family, $6,000 and 7,000 for Latinos. 80% of white families in the state own their own home, just 40% of Blacks and Latinos.

Newark, Camden, and Paterson rank among the poorest cities in America. Can you convince listeners that emphasizing individual liberty makes you the candidate to deal effectively within inequality, unless you don't think it's a central issue?

Jack Ciattarelli: If you go back 100 years, those very same statistics might have been applied to the Italian immigrants, the Polish immigrants, the Jewish immigrants that all came to the United States. What I'm all about is providing each and every one of our 9 million citizens in New Jersey opportunity and security. I'm all about empowering every one of those individuals with liberty to ensure that each one of them can achieve their American dream.

That's what equality means to me, knowing that each and every one of our citizens can achieve their American dream right here in New Jersey.

Brian Lehrer: Do you think a lack of liberty is what's holding African-American and Latino family wealth down so far below white family wealth?

Jack Ciattarelli: I think what causes any individual, no matter what their race, creed, or color the opportunity to achieve their American dream, it's a lack of opportunity. We have to look at those groups throughout New Jersey that are not getting same access to education, that are not getting access to healthcare, that are not getting access to capital.

Those are just some examples that if you're not getting equal access to education, healthcare, capital, business opportunity, that's not fair and that's certainly something we would need to address.

Brian Lehrer: How would you address some of those?

Jack Ciattarelli: Well, if you look at my gubernatorial platform, which is for all to see on my website, you'll see that I talk about the need, for example, to reinvest in our urban centers and have them experience the kind of revitalization we've seen in other parts of the state, so that the people that live there have opportunity. It's a very specific plan-

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Jack Ciattarelli: It's a very specific plan to address decades of disinvestment in some of our urban centers.

Brian Lehrer: When you talk about investing in the urban centers, in the debate the other night, you promised a new school funding formula that you called flatter and more equal, which Governor Murphy at least meant-- or I guess you were saying flat out, you tell us, that you would spend less on education for low income kids.

Jack Ciattarelli: I never said I would spend less. What I did say is I will never leave any student behind. I will never leave any community behind. I will never adversely affect the quality of education, but what we do need while achieving those goals is a flatter and more equitable distribution of state aid.

It is not fair that a million dollar home in Jersey [inaudible 00:08:37] Hoboken pay less in property taxes than a $400,000 home in Tom's River, Hillsborough, or Parsippany, and a great many other towns across the state. That's not fair. The reason why that dynamic exists is because of the current school funding formula. Phil Murphy continues to send state aid to people that own million dollar homes in places like Hoboken and Jersey city.

I don't think that's fair if they're paying less in property taxes than a $400,000 home in, again, Toms River, Hillsborough, or Parsippany.

Brian Lehrer: What would do to the funding for the poor schools in the cities?

Jack Ciattarelli: I am not going to leave any student behind. I'm not going to leave any community behind, and I will not affect the quality of education, but I'm not going to have the owner of a million dollar home paying less than property taxes than the owner of a $400,000 home.

Brian Lehrer: Just to be clear, does that mean that less aid from those lower tax rates for some would be going to schools in low income areas?

Jack Ciattarelli: I think what we should have across the state is some kind of equity with regard to what the reasonable range of a cost, what the cost is to educate a pupil.

Brian Lehrer: Explain that.

Jack Ciattarelli: Well, there's inequity with the current school funding formula when some districts are spending $28,000 per student, and other districts are spending $15,000 per student.

Brian Lehrer: Some Democrats say it's the wealthy districts' spending that pushes up the property tax. 30,000 per pupil in Alpine, 29,000 in Saddle River from the numbers I've seen for kids without social disadvantages. Should they lower spending for the sake of property taxes?

Jack Ciattarelli: What you just mentioned are outliers. That is not the case across the vast majority of our school districts in New Jersey.

Brian Lehrer: As opposed to?

Jack Ciattarelli: As opposed to? You just mentioned a couple of towns.

Brian Lehrer: Right. If those towns are outliers-- Go ahead.

Jack Ciattarelli: What I'm saying is those towns are outliers, that is not the case in terms of what the cost per pupil is across the vast majority of towns throughout New Jersey.

Brian Lehrer: My guest is Republican Gubernatorial candidate for New Jersey, Jack Ciattarelli. We can take a few phone calls for him. Campaign interview obviously, ask him about his positions on issues. 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280. Let's see, let's turn to COVID-related policies. In the debate this week, Governor Murphy said he heard from you wiggle room on vaccinations, and not so sure on masking. He said that's like Texas. True or false? That New Jersey should be more like Texas?

Jack Ciattarelli: That's ridiculous. That's just one of many ridiculous things the governor said the other night. I'm vaccinated, I promoted my vaccination, I encouraged people to get vaccinated. At the same time, I've never felt as though government has a right to tell anybody to have to take a medicine.

Brian Lehrer: Do you support the court decision this week? It sounds like probably not that Mayor Baraka can require a vaccinations with no opt-out for testing for city employees?

Jack Ciattarelli: I believe the right policy is what Governor Murphy did for teachers. He gave them a choice, you either get vaccinated, or you get tested twice a week.

Brian Lehrer: Some Democrats would say you and other Republicans want zero tolerance, law and order if you will, on deadly criminals, but more tolerance on deadly COVID spreaders, and that that's an inconsistency. What would your response to them be?

Jack Ciattarelli: That's a ridiculous statement, I'm not even going to respond to it. What I will say is with regard to the rule of law, we'll have an attorney general under my administration that backs the men and women in blue so they can do their job. The current governor has supported an attorney general that has disarmed, demoralized, and handcuffed our police.

We need to be able to get rid of bad cops. Even cops agree with that. At the same time, we need to support our men and women in blue.

Brian Lehrer: Tim in Parsippany, you are on WNYC with Jack Ciattarelli. Hello, Tim?

Tim: Hello, yes. I'm from Parsippany, and he mentioned Parsippany that we are getting screwed on the taxes. That's not really true. Actually, Parsippany Hills is one of the best schools, Octavius is one of the best schools. The other issue as far as funding is, Jack Ciattarelli opposed the millionaire's tax, he says he wants to improve New Jersey transit which Murphy has been trying to do after Chris Christie almost destroyed it.

Where are you going to get the money for that if you don't support the millionaires tax? He opposed the increase in the gas tax. I think it's time for wealthy people in this state to pay their fair share. I think it's also very important that we fund green transit and trains which are three times more efficient as far as greenhouse emissions than driving that we actually improve that service and increase the service in order to deal with climate change.

Brian Lehrer: Tim, let me get a response for you. You put a number of things on the table, and Mr. Ciattarelli you can obviously hear where he's coming from. He's not likely to vote for you, it doesn't sound like, but his questions I guess centrally are on the millionaire's tax and the gasoline tax.

Jack Ciattarelli: With all due respect to the caller, I never said there was anything wrong in the quality of education in the school districts that he mentioned. What I did say is that the way that the state is distributing state aid for schools is not fair. We need a flatter more equitable distribution of state aid to schools.

Brian Lehrer: On the millionaire's tax and gasoline tax?

Jack Ciattarelli: We need a tax code that works for everybody in New Jersey. I don't believe the current tax code-- something I know a little bit about as a CPA, works for everybody in New Jersey. I think New Jersians agree that we should have a tax code that works for everybody, not just a few.

Brian Lehrer: Which means what in terms of what millionaires pay now? Is it enough? Is it their fair share?

Jack Ciattarelli: What I believe is we need a tax code that works for everybody, and right now we don't have that in New Jersey,

Brian Lehrer: I'm just trying to get clarity on this. Does that mean you're not taking a position right now on a millionaire's tax increase?

Jack Ciattarelli: What I believe in New Jersey is we need a tax code that works for all New Jersians.

Brian Lehrer: [laughs] Okay. Natale, in Raritan. You are on WNYC with Jack Ciattarelli. Hello, Natalie?

Natale: Hey, Brian. It's actually Natale.

Brian Lehrer: I apologize.

Natale: No worries though. Hey, Jack? I'm also from Raritan, I just want to say I appreciate the Raritan representation. Currently getting my master's in public health at Rutgers, specifically in LGBTQ+ health. I was wondering where your potential administration would stand on protecting the rights of LGBTQ+ New Jersians and also where your administration would stand on helping address the HIV epidemic in New Jersey.

I know we have the tools to address it and end the epidemic here, but there really hasn't been much of a commitment even from the Murphy administration to actually end the epidemic here. I'm wondering where you stand?

Jack Ciattarelli: First of all, let me congratulate you on your studies and thank you for calling in. Listen, my job as governor is to represent all nine million citizens and that's exactly what I intend to do. Knowing what their needs are, knowing what their interests are, knowing what we need to do better. As I always say, as an elected official, my first job is to listen.

I will sit down with any and all groups, any and all advocacies to hear what their concerns are with regard to what we need to do better in New Jersey. You just raised a couple of issues that I'm looking forward to learning more about. Particularly with regard to our HIV-positive patients throughout the state. One thing I've heard often about this administration is they don't sit down with everyone.

When they do, they don't seem to listen or they make promises on which they don't fulfill. I look forward to my administration being very responsive to needs of every constituency, every advocacies throughout New Jersey.

Brian Lehrer: Is there any particular LGBTQ-oriented policy-- since that's what he raised, that you are proposing or any that are out there from advocates, or Democrats that you specifically oppose?

Jack Ciattarelli: Members of the LGBT community are citizens of New Jersey. I'll be responsive to all citizens of New Jersey.

Brian Lehrer: No specific proposal as of now?

Jack Ciattarelli: I'll be responsible to all citizens and address all their needs.

Brian Lehrer: Paul in Jersey City. You're on WNYC with Jack Ciattarelli. Hello, Paul?

Paul: Hello, thank you so much Brian for taking my call. I was very appreciative of your introduction and the candidate's introduction in regard to his life experience. I'd be very curious to hear his definition of white privilege?

Brian Lehrer: Mr. Ciattarelli.

Jack Ciattarelli: Yes, Brian. What's the next question?

Brian Lehrer: Oh, he asked your definition of white privilege. If you didn't hear the beginning of the call, he said he was interested in hearing you talk about your middle-class upbringing at the beginning of the segment. With your life experience, and your experience in politics. How would you define white privilege?

Jack Ciattarelli: I don't really understand the question, Brian. Either you'll have to go further in explaining the basis of this question or we can move on.

Brian Lehrer: Paul, do you want to take a shot at that?

Paul: Sure, I'd be happy to. I'm actually not surprised that the candidate doesn't understand the concept of white privilege because the sheer fact that he doesn't realize that he has a privilege because of the color of his skin implies the dynamic of white privilege.

Brian Lehrer: That was a statement, not a question. Would you agree that not understanding the meaning of white privilege and needing a caller to explain it to you reveals some kind of blind spot about racial inequality in New Jersey and in the US today?

Jack Ciattarelli: Well, Brian, I'll tell you what, I'll leave it up for your listeners to decide, but it sounds like the person who called in has a number of issues.

Brian Lehrer: What would be your biggest policy item intended to reduce racial inequality in New Jersey?

Jack Ciattarelli: Brian, as governor, I will represent all nine million citizens of this state, and wherever it is they're being marginalized or disadvantaged. Those are things that my administration will certainly address.

Brian Lehrer: Nothing specific on that?

Jack Ciattarelli: We've got nine million citizens in this state, Brian. They all have different needs, they all have different concerns. My job is to represent each and every one of them.

Brian Lehrer: We're about out of time. Do you want to make a closing statement? Take a minute, minute and a half, say whatever you want.

Jack Ciattarelli: No, Brian. I appreciate this opportunity with you and your listening audience. I look forward to next time.

Brian Lehrer: Jack Ciattarelli, Republican nominee for governor of New Jersey, thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it.

 

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