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Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Kamala Harris is a historic vice presidential nominee. Not just because she's the first black woman on a major party ticket but also because she's the first Asian-American. Her mother was an immigrant from India. Here's a minute of senator house's introductory event yesterday in which she mentioned how her mother from India and her father from Jamaica formed a family unit that raised her with a social justice consciousness.

Kamala : My mother and father, they came from opposite sides of the world to arrive in America. One from India and the other from Jamaica in search of a world class education. What brought them together was the civil rights movement of the 1960s. That's how they met as students in the streets of Oakland, marching and shouting for this thing called justice and a struggle that continues today and I was part of it.

My parents would bring me to protest strapped tightly in my stroller. My mother Shyamala, raised my sister Maya and me to believe that it was up to us and every generation of Americans to keep on marching. She tell us, "Don't sit around and complain about things, do something." I did something. I devoted my life to making real the words carved in the United States Supreme Court: Equal Justice Under Law.

Brian: Kamala Harris speaking yesterday. We'll take calls now from Indian-Americans and if anyone happens to be listening in India, you're welcome to call too or anyone from India anywhere in the world or of Indian descent on what this part of Senator Harris' historic nomination means to you. (646) 435-7280 is our phone number (646) 435-7280. With me now is University of Connecticut, American History professor Manisha Sinha.

Maybe you saw her New York Times op ed yesterday called, "Why Kamala Harris matters to me. As an Indian American professor, I am experiencing Biden's vice presidential pick as a personal gift. Manisha Sinha is also author of the 2017 book The Slaves Cause a History of Abolition. Dr. Sinha thanks so much for coming on with us. Welcome to WNYC.

Professor Sinha: Thank you for having me, Brian.

Brian: Now, judging from your article the black and Indian family bond between Senator Harris' parents is a nuclear family version of an intercontinental bond between peoples who struggled simultaneously for freedom here and against colonization abroad. Could you share whatever you were thinking when you heard Senator Harris tell that piece of her family story in the clip that we played?

Professor Sinha: Yes, I really loved the way that she beautifully woven her intersecting identities as an Asian-American and as an African-American, as a woman of color and also of course as an immigrant. I think that speaks to so many Americans today. In fact, I think it has a bit of a global resonance because I have been fielding calls from South Asians in the United Kingdom, from Indian, all around the globe.

I think a lot of people of Indian descent especially are seeing this as a coming of age off Indian immigrants in the West.

Brian: May I ask where did you grow up and how did those connections between the Indian experience and the black and African-American experiences first become apparent to you?

Professor Sinha: I grew up in India and I came to this country when I was 21 and have now lived here longer than in India. It really spoke to me because I came here to study American history and in particular the history of slavery and abolition and the coming of the civil war. My first book actually was on the politics of slavery.

Communist story actually spoke to me at a personal level which actually took me aback because my own politics tend to be on the left of the democratic party and her campaign really hadn't taken off. I voted for my home senator, Elizabeth Warren, but I can really somehow identify with her story in a way that was actually took me aback too.

That's why I wrote that piece for the New York Times. The way my inbox crashed with emails from Indian-Americans, my former students from all over the country was quite interesting.

Brian: Let's take a phone call right away. Here is Rita in Somerset, New Jersey, you're on WNYC. Hi, Rita.

Rita: Hi, Brian, how are you? I just wanted to say, I'm actually an Indian, South Indian, and I also speak Tamil as the same language as Shyamala, who's Kamala's mother. It was very exciting for me and I've had a lot of people from India also calling me to express their delight that her having been chosen as VP candidate.

For us, for me especially, I was happy that she was chosen first because I was worried that Trump may choose Nikki Haley as vice president candidate. Although I wouldn't have voted for her, I know a lot of my Indian friends would may have opted to vote for her and Trump so I was thinking that this is a better choice for me.

Brian: Thank you very much. I'm going to go right on to one more call and then we'll get your reactions to both Professor Sinha. Here is, Heipal, in Staten Island. Hello, Heipal, you're on WNYC.

Heipal: Hi, Brian. Good morning. What a delight to speak to you. Thank you.

Brian: And to you.

Heipal: Yes, Brian, go ahead.

Brian: No, you go ahead. You're very proud. I see, you're very proud, you told our screener, yes?

Heipal: Yes, we are. We are very proud, we are very excited that Miss Harris has been nominated as the Democratic vice president candidate. We're really, really, really, really excited because this is a proud moment for us. Indians have contributed to the world, we have contributed to America. As immigrants, we have been very productive in this country and she's a prime example.

I'm really looking forward to where this goes with Miss Harris being the nominee and hopefully, one day, the vice president of this country.

Brian: Heipal, thank you so much for your call. We really appreciate it. Dr. Sinha, the first caller mentioned Nikki Haley, and you point out in your op ed that not all prominent Indian-Americans in politics are progressive, and of course, Nikki Haley, Trump appointee is UN ambassador and former South Carolina governor.

There was also the former governor of Louisiana, Bobby Jindal, who a lot of people remember when he was much in the news, you mentioned him in your piece. Are there political currents in the community that wind up dividing Indian-Americans by politics, anything that you would call patterns of politicization, rather than just some individuals land here, some individuals land there?

Professor Sinha: That's a great question, Brian, because we do know that Indian-Americans predominantly, actually an overwhelming majority vote democratic, even though we've had Indian-American figures arise in the Republican Party recently, people like Jindal and Nikki Haley, but I did not really feel any connection to their rights.

In fact, actually, as I write my piece, no pleasure in their rights because it seemed to me that they were repudiating the values that I think many Indian-Americans hold. Just looking at the connections between Gandhi and opposition to British rule, and looking at the ways in which civil rights activists adopted that in their struggle in the United States for equal citizenship.

That's why I'm so glad that it was Kamala Harris, because her father is Jamaican, she identifies as a black woman also. I think it's a course correct, a little bit for the Indian-American community. What I don't want Indian-Americans to do is to become like any other immigrant group to the United States, and adopt the mainstream racism that prevails in the country.

It was a way for many different Southern and Eastern European immigrants, to become Americans, to simply adopt the racist attitudes that existed in the United States at that time. I hope Asian-Americans and Indian-Americans in particular, would repudiate that because our legacy, our historical legacy, beginning with a struggle against the British, has always been to fight for racial equality and justice.

I wanted to make that clear in my piece. When Nikki Haley took down the Confederate flag in South Carolina, it was probably the only really good thing she did in her political career. I actually sent her a copy of my first book on the politics of slavery in Antebellum, South Carolina. She did not even acknowledge that. I don't really see her as representing the kinds of values that I cherish as an Indian-American.

Brian: I know that Asian-Americans has a big diverse group, and of course that includes Indian-Americans, Chinese-Americans, Korean-Americans, Filipino-Americans, others, but Asian-Americans has a big diverse group voted like two thirds for Obama, two thirds for Hillary Clinton. Do you know the breakdown among Indian-Americans specifically?

Professor Sinha: It's been overwhelmingly democratic. I just read an article recently on this. Of course, Trump has been trying to woo Prime Minister Modi and trying to equate his America first nationalism, with the idea of Hindu nationalism in India, but the facts speak otherwise. He has been so weak as a President and in such disarray, that when China attacked India with impunity, actually, and he literally massacred some Indian soldiers, the response of the US government was so weak.

I still remember when President Carter and President Obama visited India, and they really had an understanding of developing an alliance between the two democracies. In fact, President Obama's speech to the Indian Parliament is probably the best thing one would ever read on both American and Indian history and why this alliance should occur right now.

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I think we should get away from the optics, which clearly that is what all Trump is about, a lot of bluster. He foisted himself on Modi's rally in Houston, foisted himself on India in Ahmedabadat another rally, but in terms of concrete action, he has really done nothing. I think it is very important for Indian-Americans to step back and take a stock at which party represents the values that Indians have historically cherished.

Also, in terms of our presence here. Let's not forget that old Indian grandfather in Georgia who was beaten up and I think died. Things like systemic racism, police brutality, are issues that concern immigrants. They concern Indian immigrants. Trump has made it quite clear that he prefers immigrants from Norway, and not from Asia, Africa, or Latin America.

That just is such an overt dog-- It's not even a dog whistle. It's such overt racism, that you would imagine that most Indian-Americans would get that. Yes, I don't think that the attempt to somehow woo the Indian-American community into the republican party has worked. I do think that right now, it's not just Indian Americans, but any American who is concerned about the fate of American democracy should woo democratic Kamala Harris' presence in the ticket, just gives us that added incentive.

Brian: Listeners we can take more calls from Indian-Americans or anyone of Indian descent on what the nomination of Kamala Harris to be Joe Biden's running mate means to you. 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280 for a University of Connecticut, American History professor, Manisha Sinha. Maybe you saw her New York Times op-ed yesterday called, "Why Kamala Harris matters to me. As an Indian-American professor of African-American History, I'm experiencing Biden's vice presidential pick as a personal gift", she wrote and Sumati in Manhattan, you're on WNYC Hello, Sumati?

Sumati: Hello, my name is Sumati, I've never called in Brian but I do listen to you every day. I want to just echo the things that were just said by Professor Sinha. There is a great diversity in the Indian community in terms of left-leaning or centrist or even right-leaning. I personally abhor the right-leaning and the support of Modi on the part of Indian-Americans in this country does not represent my experience.

I came to this country in 1950s as a 12-year-old. My parents were academics. Most Indians at that time were academics. Most of them have, in some form, participated in the Freedom Movement. It was a very natural progression for my family to move right into the Civil Rights Movement as a 12, 13-year-old. That was my first consciousness of the black/light issue in this country, and we immersed ourselves.

I think that would have been less Indian who came later on in the 70s, particularly, were business people. They had a totally different take, but what's interesting is that I think so many of their children are really aligned with the Black Lives Matter Movement. They are yearning for genuine justice in this country and see themselves as part of a very diverse society but recognizing that the cause of the Black Lives, people who have descendants today or people who have descendants from the said Blacks of America has to be supported in this social justice.

Brian: Sumati, thank you so much for your call. Professor Sinha reminds me of a line in your piece, which was that, while many people asked you as you were applying for work as a college professor, how you as an Indian-American woman chose to specialize in the history of slavery and the Civil War. The one college teaching interview where they didn't ask you that question was to teach African-American history.Do you want to make that connection to what the last caller was saying?

Professor Sinha: Yes, absolutely. I interviewed at the University of Massachusetts Amherst, in fact, spent 20 years of my career in a Black Studies Department. Shepherded its Ph.D. program in my last year there. I really felt at home there precisely for the kinds of reasons mentioned by the previous caller. There was a real knowledge of the history of the connection between Gandhi's philosophy of nonviolent resistance with Dr. King's activism.

I remember when Dr. King visited India. Actually, this was before I was born, and adopted what we have actually, our cost reservation system, which is not just a law in India, it's in our Constitution. Saw that as a model for the late affirmative action programs in the United States. There's just so many connections. We look at Isabel Wilkerson's wonderful new book called Cost that looks at the problem of racism through the lens of cost and equality in India. [crosstalk]

Brian: She was here for that last week.

Professor Sinha: Yes, exactly. I'm glad because it's a wonderful book. I'm also thinking of Dr. Ambedkar who was from the Dalit community. He's called the father of India's constitution. He presided over our constitutional convention and upright it. He actually preceded me to Columbia University. He got his degree from. There were all these connections between black freedom struggles in India.

There was a correspondence between the great black activists W. E. B. Du Bois and Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, our first prime minister, where they really saw the connections between the struggle for black equality and decolonization in Asia and Africa. There are a lot of these historical connections that get reinforced by conditions here in the United States.

Even though there are a vocal few, I think, who have identified with the Republican Party, the Indian community is not monolithic, as your previous caller pointed out. I think as a whole, it has actually leaned far more democratic, a lot like perhaps the Jewish-American community and some other communities. Certainly, Asian-Americans as a whole tend to lean more democratic. I think there is there is a reason why that is so.

Brian: Sachin in Oakland, you're on WNYC. Hello, Sachin?

Sachin: Hey, Brian. Good morning to you. Mr. Brian, I actually had a bit of a contradictory viewpoint to your speaker and one of the guests who called in. I think, personally, from my perspective, if Kamala Harris has conveniently positioned herself more from an African-American perspective because it's politically convenient.

I feel like Indians, especially Indians, born and raised in America, there's a large identity issue because of being a minority and all that comes with it, and I feel there's almost a forced validation by associating with her, though she doesn't seem to have a reciprocal association with India as much as she has with the African-American community.

From a very observation perspective, when I see the feeds of my friends from American-Indians born here. I personally don't see that level of association, and the pride that comes with it because I just don't her see that-- It's not mutual.

Brian: That's so interesting. Well, what about that? Professor Sinha? He's saying that it's not mutual because she doesn't speak a lot about her Indian heritage. She talks about her Black Heritage.

Professor Sinha: Well, I would completely disagree with him. Kamala Harris has been quite clear that she's extremely proud of her Black Heritage. Her father was Jamaican and her mother was Indian, and she has never disavowed that, and I would suggest that he read her autobiography. She remember so fondly her summers in India and her grandfather who was a freedom fighter in India.

This notion that somehow she has no claim on her Indian identity, I think it just does not hold water. It's quite clear she's extremely proud of her Indian identity. She talks about visiting Hindu temples, as well as Baptist churches. Culturally, she's been raised in this country as a black woman. It's interesting that unlike many Indian-Americans who would shy from a connection with an oppressed community, simply in order to fit in and rise up in this country, she chose to identify with the African-American community.

Her mother, who seems really quite a brilliant woman chose to identify also with the black community. I am quite sure that her mother did not raise her as a black girl in Oakland, California calculating that she would essentially become the vice presidential nominee of this of the Democratic Party.

I think people sometimes, especially we Indians, tend to be pretty parochial in terms of our communities and our religions.

I know people I even wrote about the particular places that they come from India rather than looking at India as a national project as a whole. I think it is important to understand that in the United States, Kamala Harris' nomination represents an enormous achievement for both the African-American and the Indian American community.

Brian: We've got about two minutes left in the segment, and I'd like to try to touch on a couple of things real quick with you that I think people will find really interesting. Tell me if you think I've got this right. I read that Senator Harris has a progressive position on Kashmir and has taken some heat from Hindu nationalist. Frankly, professors Sinha, I'm always surprised on this program. Here we are in progressive New York.

When we talk about Modi and related issues, our board gets flooded with Indian heritage callers on both sides of that meaning, there are a lot of Modi supporters in our area apparently. Can you talk a little bit about how you see Harris on Kashmir and that struggle and if you think supporting the rights of Muslims in Kashmir, might have been a politically gutsy move at all for Senator Harris, if you agree she took that position?

Professor Sinha: Well, I don't know whether she has actually made a statement about it, but I do know that a lot of progressive Indian-Americans in the democratic party like Pramila Jayapal have actually taken a position on, as have many Indians. Start to think of India as a monolith. We're a functioning democracy. There's a lot of opposition and debate. There were actually widespread demonstrations in Indian streets against the Citizenship Act that had been proposed.

There are two sides to this issue in India and maybe some of that is being replicated here. What's important I think for Indian-Americans to remember is that, I think this whole idea of buffing yourself up and nationalism by putting down other communities and minorities is a sign-- Is an inferiority complex. India's constitution says that we are a sovereign, socialist, secular, democratic republic.

I really think we should not become a Hindu version of Pakistan, which is a theocratic religious state and which has failed precisely because of that.

The vision that our Indian nationalists freedom fighters had for India was in fact a multicultural, multi-ethnic democracy. It is something that really speaks to the United States as well.

Brian: The one thing we didn't get to which people just have to read, your New York Times Op-Ed, to read for themselves or look deeper into history, was the supreme court ruling that you write about from the 1920s, that Indians were not eligible for American citizenship and about 50 people actually got denaturalized.

For this whole conversation, we thank University of Connecticut history professor, Manisha Sinha. Maybe you saw her New York Times Op-Ed yesterday on Kamala Harris and her. Thank you so very much.

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