Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer at WNYC, last week, New York city council passed the bill that will allow hundreds of thousands of immigrants to vote in New York City elections, even if they are not US citizens. They do have to be here legally as green card holding permanent residents, or here on work visas. It's estimated that will make 800 to 900,000 more people eligible to vote in New York City elections. That doesn't mean they will. One of the problems with democracy in New York City is chronically low voter turnout.

WNYC, senior political reporter, Brigid Bergin, joins us now to talk about both things, the new eligible voters, assuming Mayor de Blasio dozen veto the bill, and democracy in general in the de Blasio era, the subject of our latest grating bill de Blasio report on WNYC and Gothamist that Brigid wrote. Hi, Brigid.

Brigid Bergin: Good morning, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, who would be newly eligible to vote under this bill, you'll get first tips on the phones for the first part at least of this segment, 212-433-WNYC. Tell other listeners how this law makes you feel if this covers you, whether you plan to vote next time you can, and make the case to skeptics out there that you deserve the right to vote without having become a citizen. 212-433- WNYC, 433-9692. This was not a unanimous vote in city council, 14 of the 51 council members voted, no, which rarely happens in the council, which is almost all Democrats.

Listeners who would become eligible under this law, if any of you happen to be listening, if you're excited about it, tell us why. Also, convince people that resident rather than citizen is the proper standard for the right to vote. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 or a tweet @BrianLehrer. Brigid, you estimated 900,000 additional potential voters? Why is it that many?

Brigid Bergin: As you said, Brian, we're talking about people who are living here in the city legally, they are authorized, either they have a green card to live here, or they have work authorization or to be covered by a program like DACA or TPS. That is the population that advocates for this bill estimate could be impacted. They put it in the range of 900,000, during the debate on Thursday, people were throwing numbers from 800,000 to a million for people who would receive a green card during the time this bill would take effect.

People need to be living in the city residents of the city for at least 30 days to be able to qualify to register and then vote in these municipal races. We're talking about this sizable population of people who pay their taxes, but currently don't have any say in how that money is spent when it comes to decisions in their local community. We're talking about the streets and emergency services and our schools.

Brian Lehrer: This is just for city races like mayor and city council not for state legislature or governor or president or any other offices that are not city-specific?

Brigid Bergin: Absolutely. We're just talking mayor, city council, borough president, public advocate, city comptroller, but not those state offices, including district attorneys and certainly not any of the federal races.

Brian Lehrer: Why were there 14 dissenters in almost all democratic city council?

Brigid Bergin: The dissenters were made up of a combination, of course, of the Republican members who have been out there rallying against this. They're currently four Republican members in the council, along with some of the more moderate democratic members. Bronx city council member, Mark Gjonaj, actually tried to introduce a resolution to just kick this bill back to committee, be a way of killing it without having to go through the roll call vote on the actual legislation.

The argument that you heard many of these members who opposed it make was related to this residency requirement that they thought people needed to be in this city longer to be eligible to participate in our local elections around the citizen requirement saying that it didn't conform with state or federal law, something that certainly supporters of the legislation argue against.

Then there were a couple of people, City Council Member Laurie Cumbo, chief among them making some arguments about how specific communities could be impacted in terms of the power dynamics within this city. She was talking specifically about Black and African American voters who she was concerned could be hurt by the growing power of other groups that this legislation could potentially impact.

She actually spoke directly to one of the bills, lead sponsors, Council Member Ydanis Rodriguez, who is Dominican American, and talked about how her concern around just not knowing the numbers and that this was a piece of legislation that would strengthen the voice of that community potentially reducing the voice of her community. It was a really painful moment to hear.

Brian Lehrer: Before we go to some of these callers who, before we declare them newly eligible to register to vote, last I read before the bill passed, Mayor de Blasio was sounding noncommittal about his opinions about it, but said he would not veto it. Has he become more declarative now that it has passed?

Brigid Bergin: I ask that question routinely, and I have not heard anything beyond that he will support the will of the council and he would not veto the legislation. It is not clear whether he will proactively sign the legislation, and so then what happens there, procedurally is if a bill is not signed within 30 days, it could automatically become law. However, that kicks into the new Adams administration.

Eric Adams was among the proponents of this bill, particularly back in the spring. During the mayoral debate, right before the election, he voiced some initial concerns about the legality of the bill. He then later tweeted again his support for the idea, but then the day of the vote, during a press conference where he gaggled with some reporters after announcing his school's commissioner, he raised concerns once again about the 30-day residency requirement and added a new concern, which was about allowing these individuals to vote in citywide elections as opposed to neighborhood-specific elections, comparing it to the way school board elections were conducted.

I think that it's unclear what the next steps, but certainly advocates are hoping that Mayor de Blasio signs it so at least that part of it is taking care of before he leaves the office.

Brian Lehrer: Michael, in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Michael, thank you for calling in.

Michael: Hi, good morning. Yes, so I'm a Canadian citizen and I've lived in New York for almost 10 years at this point. I was very excited when this bill passed the other day. Yes, I think--

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Michael: Sorry.

Brian Lehrer: No, you go ahead.

Michael: Yes. I would 100% to vote. I pay taxes, I've be paying taxes city for 10 years. I'm a legal, I'm here legally on a work visa and I was earlier this year in the mayoral race, I actually didn't know if I was eligible and I couldn't find any information, so I just didn't vote obviously, but now after hearing this, I was really excited because I'm a Canadian citizen. I grew up in South America my whole life, and I actually never voted in my 36 years of life. This was actually very exciting for me, kind of sounds silly, but I was excited when this happened.

Brian Lehrer: Have you considered becoming a citizen since you've lived here for so long?

Michael: Yes, it's definitely a consideration, but it takes a long time and at first I would need to get a green card. It wouldn't be an immediate or a quick that wouldn't happen any time soon.

Brian Lehrer: Michael, thank you so much for your call, and congratulations on apparently being able to vote in the next city elections. Now, Brigid, let's linger on Michael's call for a minute because he squarely placed himself into one of the categories of people who would be eligible to vote under this. People here on work visas separate from people who are here on green cards, which he said he does not have. That is a legal permanent residency status, the green card, and he's not that, but here on a work visa for 10 years, what's the distinction between the two?

Brigid Bergin: Well, both are covered by the legislation. If you're living here permanently or you're authorized to work here, you would be eligible to vote in these local elections under the legislation. I think one of the things that was interesting was the question you posed to Michael about, "Have you considered becoming a citizen?" He talked about how long the process takes, which is one of the things that you hear a lot of proponents of the legislation talk about. That the conversation can get boiled down to this issue of well voting is a right reserve for citizens, but the fact that becoming a citizen of this country is actually a pretty lengthy process. It's a rather expensive process. One of the arguments, Margaret Chin, City Council Member who represents Chinatown and the lower east side was making during her floor vote on Thursday was this is an opportunity to take a population who may be very active in their community and take a step towards that citizen process by engaging them in their local democracy. That if you are able to get this population of people engaged that they may then take another step to go through the entire process of becoming a citizen. Then ultimately being able to vote in those federal elections

Brian Lehrer: Angus in Astoria. You're on WNYC. Hi, Angus.

Angus: Yes. Hello.

Brian Lehrer: Hi there. You're on the air.

Angus: I've lived in New York and moved in a story over the last 30 years. I do have a green card. I'm not a citizen and I'm definitely vote.

Brian Lehrer: You're excited to vote. Tell us in your case, if you've got a green card and have lived here 30 years, why haven't you decided to become a citizen?

Angus: That's due to the Austrian government not allowing dual citizenship and I have a daughter and I want her to have that option. It's not so much about the Austrian citizenship, but it's a European thing because they're part of the European community. I'm holding out for her really until she's 18 and then she would've to decide on her own, I guess, but it's an interesting situation, isn't it? I feel very American at this point, but I'm holding on.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Are you excited to vote. What emotion are you feeling about the prospect of being able to vote in city elections next time around?

Angus: It does sound like I would have a voice in what's happening. I am a taxpayer, I have a kid in a public school. I could influence some of the things that are happening around me for the first time.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you so much, Angus, and good luck to you and your daughter. Brigid, it raises the question and we've heard two good stories from our first two callers about different situations that they're in. That have made them decide, for the moment at least, not to become US citizens. Yet they want to have a voice in the community that they've lived in for a long time. It raises a deeper question about whether legal residency through a work visa or a green card is the moral equivalent of citizenship. Does this devalue, whatever citizenship means, even though most people probably can't define it?

Brigid Bergin: I would go back to this argument that I referenced that Council Member Margaret Chin made that in some cases, and in many cases, we're talking about people who are already pretty active in their community and for a variety of reasons whether they are bureaucratic or financial, haven't taken the next step to become a citizen.

Yet if you were to give them an opportunity to fully engage with their local community, to have a say in their local democracy, that might actually spur them on to take those next steps. I think listening to the segment, the conversation you're having just before this. We have a democracy problem in this country. We talk about it often at the national level, but it's as much a problem at the local level, and getting as many people to engage in as possible is something that, I think, is worth talking about.

Brian Lehrer: That last question and that last answer is a good jumping-off point to transition to your latest article because this allowing these 800,000 to a million non-citizen legal residents the right to vote in city elections is an expansion of democracy in New York City as far as its proponents are concerned.

You just reported an assessment of democracy under Bill de Blasio, as part of our grading Bill de Blasio series, you remind us he came into office saying you can't fight for greater equality. He was the equality mayor. You can't fight for greater equality with less democracy. What was the context for that?

Brigid Bergin: That was part of how he framed his second term in office. He pivoted from this tale of two cities, ending the tale of two cities to how to make New York the fairest big city. It came in a moment where we've just seen the election of President Trump in 2016 here in this city. We just experienced that massive voter purge in Brooklyn where nearly 120,000 voters were illegally removed from the Royal.

There was growing activism across the city and the country. As the mayor started his second term in his first state of the city speech, he talked about all the ways that you would define a fairer city, which included issues related to education and housing, and policing. He said the foundation of all of that was our local democracy. He laid out a 10-point plan for bolstering that democracy for the sake of the city's equality.

Brian Lehrer: De Blasio announced this 10-point plan then called democracy NYC. Were there a most important few on that list?

Brigid Bergin: Ten's a lot. I think of them in terms of three big buckets, there's the electoral portion of it, the census, and then the civic engagement. The results are pretty mixed. That has to do with how much funding was allocated to each of the initiatives, but the fact that the city started this conversation is something that experts said to me was generally a good thing

Brian Lehrer: In the spirit of creating Bill de Blasio, the name of the series, how'd that go?

Brigid Bergin: There were high points and low points. One of the goals was to register one and a half million new voters. That's a pretty stretch goal. It was a goal that was hampered by the fact we had a global pandemic and we were stuck in our homes. Those voter registration drives you're used to seeing at big public events weren't happening because there were no big public events.

The state was also supposed to set up an online voter registration system, which it did not adequate adequately fund or get off the ground. That further hampered it but the city did end up with a net of about 600,000 newly register voters. That was thanks in part to the work of one of the other parts of this plan, which was a new chief democracy officer. Laura Wood has been in that role the longest and her team, which was very small and not particularly well resourced did their best to partner with some of the existing democracy structures within the city, the campaign finance board, the board of elections, to do that voter registration and outreach.

When they were given more resources like this past spring, when the mayor decided to give $15 million to a last-minute push for rank choice voting, you could see how that helped in terms, turnout, and awareness. In terms of how that is consistently managed there wasn't that same investment or effort going into this past general election. Ther, of course, we saw this record low voter turnout.

Brian Lehrer: Alicia in Westchester, originally from Uruguay. Hi, Alicia, thanks for calling in.

Alicia: Hello. Hi. I was-- hello?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, we got you. Hello?

Alicia: Yes, I would very much like to vote. I have been a resident of the United States for 28 years. I've been a [unintelligible 00:18:43] I was an international [unintelligible 00:18:47] service. I've been in the United States 40 and I never thought about becoming a citizen. I have former colleagues that are becoming citizens, but I would very much like to vote. I maybe suggest that maybe residents pay a certain amount of money would be allowed to vote. Without becoming citizens.

Brigid Bergin: If legal residents paid a certain amount of money, they could buy themselves, the right to vote without becoming green cardholders"

Alicia: [unintelligible 00:19:18] [crosstalk] It's not buying the right to vote, but maybe mom showing the will to vote.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. You would do that. It sounds like you're torn between becoming a citizen or not becoming a citizen, even at this point. If I've got that right, what's your ambivalence, what's your pro and what's your con.

Alicia: To tell you the truth, I don't have one, a specific one. It's quite expensive to become a citizen, but it's not that. Oh, no, I don't want to be a citizen or I would love to be a citizen. No, it's nothing. It's very ambiguous not really any specific. I don't have anything against the United States and I always admire in many ways the United States. Now we are, it's a little the now, but, for the politics that we have experienced in the last year. Yeah

Brian Lehrer: Alicia, thank you so much for your call. I really appreciate it. Brigid had just on the question of money. I'm sure it would be unconstitutional to buy your way into the right to vote but I also want to note that few callers and tweeters are pointing out that it's expensive to get a green card. If that's the standard then there's still a monetary bar.

Brigid Bergin: Yes. I think there certainly buying the right to vote would not be something that would be legal. There is not a perfect answer to these. I do think one of the things that is likely to happen no matter what is that, we will see these issues teased out in a court challenge, that is almost inevitable. Most of the changes to state election law in New York tend to happen either at the state level or because a court mandates it.

I think before we see a full implementation of this law, which just to be clear for folks, would not impact municipal elections until the post-January 9th, 2023. We have some time to get our system up and running, get the board of elections, set up with a new registration form for these municipal voters. I do think there is very likely going to be further legal debate over how it's implemented.

Brian Lehrer: There will be some special elections as some seats get vacated for one reason or another, but the next major New York city election, since we just had that this year in the four-year election cycle wouldn't be until 2025, where that would really affect a lot of people.

Brigid Bergin: Actually it would be in 2023 because of redistricting City Council Members have to run again in two years.

Brian Lehrer: I did not know that.

Brigid Bergin: The cycle continues at a rapid pace.

Brian Lehrer: One final question, now that you've done a deep dive on democracy de Blasio style, how about democracy Eric Adams style and how that's starting out? There's a story today about Adam's canceling 10 upcoming fundraisers, at least partly out of concern over what special interests he might be [unintelligible 00:22:54] with and taking money from. That's not how he's putting it, but that's how a lot of people are seeing it.

Brigid Bergin: Yes. It is some great reporting from Ben Smith and Dan Rubenstein from the New York Times, who found that he was going to be holding another fundraiser with a controversial PR figure. I think in part there's the issue that public funds can't go towards the transition and inauguration expenses, and that's some of what he's fundraising for now.

There's also reports that he's raised a significant amount of money to cover those expenses.

Certainly, we know that as with all candidates, the fundraising just never seems to stop but there are lessons from both the de Blasio administration to the incoming atoms administration about, flying a little too close to the sun when it comes to some of those fundraising efforts and how they can hit the radar of state and federal investigators, how the conflicts of interest board may weigh in, and how the city council may respond.

Certainly, we know that Mayor de Blasio's fundraising efforts have been scrutinized over the course of his entire mayoralty, leading even to council legislation that banned the type of nonprofit that he has set up for fundraising going forward.

Even last week, we were still seating some of the guidance that his administration was given, finally released because of another New York Times story like a lawsuit for a freedom of information request. I think there is some real caution there for the incoming administration about who is doing business before the city and who they are taking money from.

Brian Lehrer: WNYC senior political reporter, Brigid Bergen. Her new article on Gothamist and reporting on WNYC is a deep dive into democracy de Blasio style, part of the grading Bill de Blasio series. Brigid, thanks a lot.

Brigid Bergin: Thanks, Brian.

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